December 17, 2017, 08:39:52 AM

Author Topic: More Than One Active Full Frame Mirrorless Project at Canon? [CR1]  (Read 36875 times)

BillB

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Re: More Than One Active Full Frame Mirrorless Project at Canon? [CR1]
« Reply #15 on: October 05, 2017, 02:09:07 PM »
I have been wondering about a fixed lens mirrorless since the RX1R II came out.  If you want the smallest, lightest full frame option, this could be it, especially if the sensor has enough mp's so you can zoom by cropping, as well as by zooming with your feet.  You give up being able to change lenses, but if you put a lens on it that is significantly different than a 35mm prime (for example) you start picking up weight and size.  A fixed lens design may have some advantages in terms of lighter weight and greater strength.  The older fixed frame cameras had leaf shutters integrated into the lens, rather than the focal plane shutters in interchangeable lens cameras, but I don't know whether that is a consideration anymore.

A small light fixed lens mirrorless certainly wouldn't be a swiss army knife, but it might a handy little tool that would complement a bigger, more flexible DSLR setup.  On the other hand, I am not willing to pay Sony RX1R II or Leica Q prices for a small fixed lens lightweight, even if the lens comes with the price of the camera.  Then again, you can always put a 40mm pancake on the lightest full frame Canon you can get your hands on.

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Re: More Than One Active Full Frame Mirrorless Project at Canon? [CR1]
« Reply #15 on: October 05, 2017, 02:09:07 PM »

ahsanford

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Re: More Than One Active Full Frame Mirrorless Project at Canon? [CR1]
« Reply #16 on: October 05, 2017, 02:14:26 PM »
The older fixed frame cameras had leaf shutters integrated into the lens, rather than the focal plane shutters in interchangeable lens cameras, but I don't know whether that is a consideration anymore.

I want to say a few of the RX1, RX1R, RX1R II and Leica Q designs indeed put leaf-shutters in those embedded fixed lens designs -- they enjoy a screamingly fast sync speed as a result, like 1/2000s or so.

Then there's the whole 'never need AFMA' as (presumably) that can completely be dialed in at the factory.   ::)

Again, fixed lens won't set the world alight, but (a) it's awesome FF batting practice for Canon to dial in a future FF ILC platform, and (b) a way to offer a pricey / bougie $3k+ prestige item with high margins if Canon wants to.

- A

Dylan777

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Re: More Than One Active Full Frame Mirrorless Project at Canon? [CR1]
« Reply #17 on: October 05, 2017, 02:15:21 PM »
1. FF mirrorless with EF mount = modern body style

2. FF mirrorless with new mount = range body style

3. RX1 style

 ;)

BillB

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Re: More Than One Active Full Frame Mirrorless Project at Canon? [CR1]
« Reply #18 on: October 05, 2017, 02:18:06 PM »
I'd never buy a Canon FF mirrorless that requires an adaptor for EF lenses.

Sure, and that's a fair opinion, but that is not remotely what you said in the opening. 

Implying that an adaptor is the equivalent of leaving EF behind is (IMHO) irresponsible without substantiation.  It could be a pain, sure, but EF will still work!

- A

What about a lens mount comparable to the EF-S approach.  Fully compatable with EF lenses without an adapter, but with a lockout feature, so that lenses could be designed to only fit into a mirrorless camera that allowed the lens to intrude further into the camera body?

leadin2

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Re: More Than One Active Full Frame Mirrorless Project at Canon? [CR1]
« Reply #19 on: October 05, 2017, 02:21:46 PM »
1. FF mirrorless with EF mount = modern body style

2. FF mirrorless with new mount = range body style

3. RX1 style

 ;)

The Ef mount might be a Canon A9 perhaps.

Aaron D

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Re: More Than One Active Full Frame Mirrorless Project at Canon? [CR1]
« Reply #20 on: October 05, 2017, 02:22:44 PM »
Why such a line in the sand for an EF mount?  If they build an EF mount into a mirrorless body, they're building in that mirror-box space even though it's not needed--no mirror!  Compactness is one of the best reasons to go mirrorless, but if you build in dead space, you're stuck with it.  Small flange distance is the other best reason for mirrorless, small space behind the inner-most element is possible.  Sure you can poke your glass out the back of the lens, but tiny pancake styles are designed out or the picture at the get go!  And then there's that glass sticking out the back of your lens!

Just include an EF to M (or whatever) adapter and everybody's happy!

A

BillB

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Re: More Than One Active Full Frame Mirrorless Project at Canon? [CR1]
« Reply #21 on: October 05, 2017, 02:23:56 PM »
The older fixed frame cameras had leaf shutters integrated into the lens, rather than the focal plane shutters in interchangeable lens cameras, but I don't know whether that is a consideration anymore.

I want to say a few of the RX1, RX1R, RX1R II and Leica Q designs indeed put leaf-shutters in those embedded fixed lens designs -- they enjoy a screamingly fast sync speed as a result, like 1/2000s or so.

Then there's the whole 'never need AFMA' as (presumably) that can completely be dialed in at the factory.   ::)

Again, fixed lens won't set the world alight, but (a) it's awesome FF batting practice for Canon to dial in a future FF ILC platform, and (b) a way to offer a pricey / bougie $3k+ prestige item with high margins if Canon wants to.

- A

Why do you need AFMA with a mirrorless camera?  If the lens is worth $500 or so (35mm F2.0), that would put the price of the body around $2500. 

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Re: More Than One Active Full Frame Mirrorless Project at Canon? [CR1]
« Reply #21 on: October 05, 2017, 02:23:56 PM »

neuroanatomist

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Re: More Than One Active Full Frame Mirrorless Project at Canon? [CR1]
« Reply #22 on: October 05, 2017, 02:53:11 PM »
Just include an EF to M (or whatever) adapter and everybody's happy!

Nice that you can speak for 'everybody'.  'Round here, we call that hubris.  Personally, I would not be happy.  If you look back a page, you'll see that CRguy would also not be happy.

Look down on a camera that's considered 'comfortable' to hold, from something large like a 1- or 5-series, down to something small like the SL2.  Notice that the hand grip actually sticks out further than the lens mount, and that lens mount has the EF flange focal distance.  Try holding a compact MILC all day, I don't know about you but my hand hurts after that...whereas after a day holding a 1D X, no hand issues at all.  Ergonomics matter, the 'professional' dSLR shape has evolved for a reason. 
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ahsanford

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Re: More Than One Active Full Frame Mirrorless Project at Canon? [CR1]
« Reply #23 on: October 05, 2017, 03:07:30 PM »

Just include an EF to M (or whatever) adapter and everybody's happy!

A

We've been down this road a hundred times.  See chart -- it's not perfect, but you get the idea.  If only one of 'keep it small' or 'keep it seamless' is chosen, half of us will meltdown and scream "WHY?!"

Some of us see mirrorless as a chance to do things better than SLRs -- using the EVF to get MF focus assistance, dark room illumination, realtime histo in the VF, etc.  This appeals best to big and stout f/1.4 prime and f/2.8 zoom toting professionals, wildlifers/birders, concert/wedding photogs working low light events, and folks who love their big/comprehensive ergonomic setup and grips of the 5D and 1D line.  This also is the right move for a second body to be shot alongside a first body SLR -- the transition between the two bodies in realtime could be seamless.

Other see mirrorless as a chance to do things smaller than SLRs or to repurpose the mirror space with adapters of (say) FD, Nikkor, or old-timey vintage lenses.  If you want a dream compact travel setup, if you hike, if you shoot street, if you just want less stuff to pack in your bag to do a similar IQ-level job as a larger SLR, this pathway is probably your choice.

There is no 'best for everyone' answer other than Canon doing both, and I just don't see them doing that with their first go at FF mirrorless.  I believe they will choose one and course-correct to offer the second laterif the overall demand is there.

- A
« Last Edit: October 05, 2017, 03:09:54 PM by ahsanford »

Rocky

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Re: More Than One Active Full Frame Mirrorless Project at Canon? [CR1]
« Reply #24 on: October 05, 2017, 03:08:52 PM »
EF mount on the FF mirrorless is a baggage carry over from the SLR. EF mount (44mm) flange distance will force the lenses that are shorter than 50mm to be bigger than what they should be due to the  necessity of the inverted telephoto design of the lenses at these focal lengthes. However. the inverted telephoto will also force the incident angle of the light rays to be closer to vertical to improve the corner illumination.  The best of both world will be off-set micro lens at the corner ( Canon might need to talk to Leica about this) and a shorter flange distance than EF mount.

Cory

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Re: More Than One Active Full Frame Mirrorless Project at Canon? [CR1]
« Reply #25 on: October 05, 2017, 03:20:42 PM »
I'd pre-order the fixed lens one right now.
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Aaron D

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Re: More Than One Active Full Frame Mirrorless Project at Canon? [CR1]
« Reply #26 on: October 05, 2017, 03:40:24 PM »
OK CR Geek you gotta know I'm being facetious--nobody's going to be happy, right?

And why does short flange distance preclude a comfortable grip? Besides which, who carries a camera around all day by the grip?  I'm a professional photographer and I don't.  (not part-time or semi-professional, mind you).  Not speaking for everyone of course, but I personally use a neck strap.  I myself would love to have all the same IQ as my 5D's in a lighter camera.

And how about Canon gives us the option to screw the adapter down permanently (or for the literal-ists: semi-permanently because of course you can un-screw it)  Then it's a "native" EF mount and you never have to buy a non-EF lens!

Sorry if it sounds like I'm jumping on CR's case.  I just drink a lot of coffee so it sounds that way in print.

A

ahsanford

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Re: More Than One Active Full Frame Mirrorless Project at Canon? [CR1]
« Reply #27 on: October 05, 2017, 03:42:28 PM »
I'd pre-order the fixed lens one right now.

'5D4-quality' sensor (30 MP not a must)
+ fixed 28mm f/2 or 35mm f/2 lens (IS nice but not a must)
+ sealed design
+ decent EVF with MF peaking (or other MF assistance)
+ DPAF + touch LCD to select AF point while my eye was at the EVF
+ nice diminutive build (fixed lens = jettison any full EF discussion, the body will 100% be thin)
+ sensibly not tiny grip + Canon ergonomic/control DNA (+ thumb wheel?)

= a perfect travel camera for me.  (I do love me a 28-35mm FF FOV and wouldn't feel handcuffed with that choice.) 

It would effectively be an RX1-like rig with Canon control DNA, a better grip, better color, and DPAF.

I'd honestly consider buying one provided Canon doesn't go insane and ask $4k for it. 

- A

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Re: More Than One Active Full Frame Mirrorless Project at Canon? [CR1]
« Reply #27 on: October 05, 2017, 03:42:28 PM »

ahsanford

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Re: More Than One Active Full Frame Mirrorless Project at Canon? [CR1]
« Reply #28 on: October 05, 2017, 03:50:45 PM »
And why does short flange distance preclude a comfortable grip?

...Ask Sony, b/c I can't figure out why they continue to propagate a dainty little grip on a platform now sporting huge pickle jar lenses.

In truth, it doesn't, but there's a notion that 'going small' with a thin new mount means everything needs to be shrunk down to look smaller/sleeker in comparison to the competition, to the SLR, etc.  See the first EOS-M for what I mean, that thing was about as big as a deck of cards.

And when I say it doesn't need to be uncomfortable, I mean it.  You can have even a thin-mount FF mirrorless ride shotgun to a proper SLR grip.  See graphic.  The idea that you might leave a pancake on it warranting designing the body to look smallest with a pancake on it is idiotic.  FF lenses have weight, even modest f/2 primes and f/4 zooms, and you need a grip to wield those.

The only space savings you'll enjoy with a gripless disaster of a rig is if you pack that rig in your bag without a lens attached.  I can't speak for everyone here, but I almost never do that.  So why not avail yourself of a grip that takes up no more space than a mundane kit lens?  If you do that, you get a top LCD, great Canon ergonomics, and possibly more battery jammed in there.  The rig remains thin and small if you want it to be, but it seamlessly can wield bigger lenses without a huge delta in hand discomfort.

- A
« Last Edit: October 05, 2017, 04:06:02 PM by ahsanford »

Mt Spokane Photography

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Re: More Than One Active Full Frame Mirrorless Project at Canon? [CR1]
« Reply #29 on: October 05, 2017, 04:01:08 PM »

Just include an EF to M (or whatever) adapter and everybody's happy!

A

Not me.  I have no interest in such a camera, one reason for not buying a Sony.  A adapter is a pain for professional users which is why Canon has already admitted that their surveys have shown pro users with a strong preference for a EF mount.

Putting a lens closer to the sensor introduces IQ issues at the edges of the sensor, the light strikes the outer pixels at a shallow angle, so all kinds of semi klutzy inventions have to be put in place just to make the image usable.  Even then, the gain of the outer pixels is cranked up even more than with a EF mount to accommodate the light loss.

That does not mean that such a mount would not sell, it just means a compromise in IQ along with a entire new series of lenses.

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Re: More Than One Active Full Frame Mirrorless Project at Canon? [CR1]
« Reply #29 on: October 05, 2017, 04:01:08 PM »