December 17, 2017, 03:31:58 AM

Author Topic: Been with Canon for 12 years - wait or jump ship?  (Read 20862 times)

jayphotoworks

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Re: Been with Canon for 12 years - wait or jump ship?
« Reply #45 on: October 26, 2017, 03:47:32 PM »
...the AF is exceptionally fast and like the reviews say, it is reactive because it doesn't have to be predictive with absolutely no blackout. You can't fully grasp that...

So you're saying the a9 has absolutely no shutter lag?  Even though Imaging Resource measured it at over 200 ms?  Or are you saying that moving subjects don't move over the course of 2/10 of a second?  You're right, I can't fully grasp that.

I wasn't talking about the shutter lag, I was talking about the viewfinder blackout. There is none on the A9. On any OVF DSLR, there is the constant movement of the mirror. 60ms on the 1DX series and 125ms on the 5D series.

Evidently you don't know what you were talking about.  You stated, "...the AF is exceptionally fast...because it doesn't have to be predictive," and attributed that to the lack of VF blackout.  But the a9 doesn't capture an image at a zero delay from achieving focus.  If it's not using predictive AF, moving subjects will be frequently out of focus.  So, which is it – does the a9 use predictive AF, or does it miss shots of moving subjects?

Incidentally, the a9 takes a minimum of 20 ms from shutter press to image capture, with electronic first shutter and no focusing.  The 1D X takes a mimimum of 36 ms to do that, because of the mirror movement.  But per Imaging Resource testing, from center point AF to image capture is 216 ms on the a9, whereas through the VF on the 5DIV it's 165 ms, and a mere 85 ms on the 1D X II.  So, your claim of 'exceptionally fast AF' on the a9 is dead wrong by comparison to the Canon 5- and 1-series AF. 

It's great when people are enthused about something, but it's just sad when their enthusiasm blinds them to factual reality.

I was expecting that you would try to position the interpretation in another direction, once you realize that yes, in fact all mirror based DSLRS have mirror blackout so that discussion will not yield itself in your favor, but let's look at exactly what you thought I said here:

"Evidently you don't know what you were talking about.  You stated, "...the AF is exceptionally fast...because it doesn't have to be predictive," and attributed that to the lack of VF blackout. "


What I was originally said:

the AF is exceptionally fast and like the reviews say, it is reactive because it doesn't have to be predictive with absolutely no blackout. You can't fully grasp that


What I was trying to convey was:

a) The AF is exceptionally fast
AND
b) There is no blackout

I didn't say "the AF is exceptionally fast because there is no blackout." I purposely avoided that discussion, because mirror blackout doesn't have any impact on AF speed, it is simply objectively faster because the image is un-interrupted during burst shooting. This is also combined with the fact that the camera is able to track at 20fps which none of those other 2 cameras you mentioned can do.

In fact, all I was doing was validating what I read on dpreview from personal experiences using the camera in the field. I'd gladly take your advice as well, but since I haven't seen your review on this camera or any camera for that matter, I'll just have to take your word on it that the A9 is NOT exceptionally fast.

My main message here is that trying new products and technologies with enthusiasm after doing proper due diligence is the way to move forwards. I'm not obligated to stay with one manufacturer strictly due to brand loyalty.




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Re: Been with Canon for 12 years - wait or jump ship?
« Reply #45 on: October 26, 2017, 03:47:32 PM »

kraats

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Re: Been with Canon for 12 years - wait or jump ship?
« Reply #46 on: October 26, 2017, 03:53:08 PM »
Jump ship pls.

Mikehit

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Re: Been with Canon for 12 years - wait or jump ship?
« Reply #47 on: October 26, 2017, 04:01:04 PM »

What I was originally said:

the AF is exceptionally fast and like the reviews say, it is reactive because it doesn't have to be predictive with absolutely no blackout. You can't fully grasp that


What I was trying to convey was:

a) The AF is exceptionally fast
AND
b) There is no blackout

I didn't say "the AF is exceptionally fast because there is no blackout." I purposely avoided that discussion, because mirror blackout doesn't have any impact on AF speed, it is simply objectively faster because the image is un-interrupted during burst shooting. This is also combined with the fact that the camera is able to track at 20fps which none of those other 2 cameras you mentioned can do.

In fact, all I was doing was validating what I read on dpreview from personal experiences using the camera in the field. I'd gladly take your advice as well, but since I haven't seen your review on this camera or any camera for that matter, I'll just have to take your word on it that the A9 is NOT exceptionally fast.

My main message here is that trying new products and technologies with enthusiasm after doing proper due diligence is the way to move forwards. I'm not obligated to stay with one manufacturer strictly due to brand loyalty.

Without wanting to put words in Neuro's mouth, his thoughts echoed mine - that you claimed the AF is fast because it does not need to be predictive. Blackout or not, it still needs to predict where the subject will be (a) in the fraction of a second between you half-pressing the shutter and then firing the shutter, and (b) in the 1/20 sec between the shutter closing and opening it needs to know where the subject will move to in that 1/20 sec. Unless, of course you are saying that the camera effectively re-focuses from scratch every time the shutter re-opens in which case the first still applies because in a sequence predictive focussing will still be very important.

neuroanatomist

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Re: Been with Canon for 12 years - wait or jump ship?
« Reply #48 on: October 26, 2017, 04:17:59 PM »
+1 Mikehit

What I was trying to convey was:

a) The AF is exceptionally fast
AND
b) There is no blackout

You failed. 

When trying to convey independent concepts, you need to separate them.  Try a comma, or put them in different sentences.  Putting two concepts together in the same sentence linked by the word 'because' is not the right way to convey them separately.
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jayphotoworks

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Re: Been with Canon for 12 years - wait or jump ship?
« Reply #49 on: October 26, 2017, 04:25:43 PM »

What I was originally said:

the AF is exceptionally fast and like the reviews say, it is reactive because it doesn't have to be predictive with absolutely no blackout. You can't fully grasp that


What I was trying to convey was:

a) The AF is exceptionally fast
AND
b) There is no blackout

I didn't say "the AF is exceptionally fast because there is no blackout." I purposely avoided that discussion, because mirror blackout doesn't have any impact on AF speed, it is simply objectively faster because the image is un-interrupted during burst shooting. This is also combined with the fact that the camera is able to track at 20fps which none of those other 2 cameras you mentioned can do.

In fact, all I was doing was validating what I read on dpreview from personal experiences using the camera in the field. I'd gladly take your advice as well, but since I haven't seen your review on this camera or any camera for that matter, I'll just have to take your word on it that the A9 is NOT exceptionally fast.

My main message here is that trying new products and technologies with enthusiasm after doing proper due diligence is the way to move forwards. I'm not obligated to stay with one manufacturer strictly due to brand loyalty.

Without wanting to put words in Neuro's mouth, his thoughts echoed mine - that you claimed the AF is fast because it does not need to be predictive. Blackout or not, it still needs to predict where the subject will be (a) in the fraction of a second between you half-pressing the shutter and then firing the shutter, and (b) in the 1/20 sec between the shutter closing and opening it needs to know where the subject will move to in that 1/20 sec. Unless, of course you are saying that the camera effectively re-focuses from scratch every time the shutter re-opens in which case the first still applies because in a sequence predictive focussing will still be very important.

The A9 is calculating AF/AE at 60hz, or a calculation every 16.7ms. It might be simply using a brute-force approach in getting that next AF point/points rather than using a more traditional predictive approach which better suits an AF module and mirror setup. I felt that the camera just pops things into focus the minute it hits an AF point regardless of pattern or process. Like mentioned elsewhere, it avoids predictive errors this way and doesn't need specific af profiles to setup prior to certain sports/events.

jayphotoworks

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Re: Been with Canon for 12 years - wait or jump ship?
« Reply #50 on: October 26, 2017, 04:30:46 PM »
+1 Mikehit

What I was trying to convey was:

a) The AF is exceptionally fast
AND
b) There is no blackout

You failed. 

When trying to convey independent concepts, you need to separate them.  Try a comma, or put them in different sentences.  Putting two concepts together in the same sentence linked by the word 'because' is not the right way to convey them separately.

I never used the word because in my original post, take a look again.

The AF is exceptionally fast and like the reviews say, it is reactive because it doesn't have to be predictive with absolutely no blackout.

But what I should have said was:

The AF is exceptionally fast and like the reviews say, it is reactive because it doesn't have to be predictive. There is also no VF blackout.

I understand that going against Canon products on a Canon forum is not going to net me a pass on my English or grammar here. Fair enough.



neuroanatomist

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Re: Been with Canon for 12 years - wait or jump ship?
« Reply #51 on: October 26, 2017, 04:35:44 PM »
I never used the word because in my original post, take a look again.

The AF is exceptionally fast and like the reviews say, it is reactive because it doesn't have to be predictive with absolutely no blackout.

Can you actually compose pictures? I ask, because you appear to be blind.  :o 8)
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Re: Been with Canon for 12 years - wait or jump ship?
« Reply #51 on: October 26, 2017, 04:35:44 PM »

Mikehit

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Re: Been with Canon for 12 years - wait or jump ship?
« Reply #52 on: October 26, 2017, 04:40:00 PM »


I understand that going against Canon products on a Canon forum is not going to net me a pass on my English or grammar here. Fair enough.

No-one really cares about you gong against Canon products. They really don't.
What people react to is false logic. Like a camera not using predictive focussing.

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jayphotoworks

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Re: Been with Canon for 12 years - wait or jump ship?
« Reply #54 on: October 26, 2017, 05:03:02 PM »


I understand that going against Canon products on a Canon forum is not going to net me a pass on my English or grammar here. Fair enough.

No-one really cares about you gong against Canon products. They really don't.
What people react to is false logic. Like a camera not using predictive focussing.

I'm really not making this up myself at all.

The a9 takes the best parts of Sony's existing on-sensor phase detection autofocus systems and takes them up a notch. Indeed, without a mirror blocking the autofocus points and with 60 calculations every second, the camera doesn't really need to 'predict' the same way other flagships do; it can just react to the scene in near-real time.

This is Dpreview's account of the camera's behavior. Whether or not this camera is fully predictive or reactive, it is capturing 20fps, and those 20fps are mostly in focus when in comparison with top-shelf flagship DSLRs that aren't shooting at 20fps.




ethanz

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Mikehit

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Re: Been with Canon for 12 years - wait or jump ship?
« Reply #56 on: October 26, 2017, 06:10:31 PM »


I understand that going against Canon products on a Canon forum is not going to net me a pass on my English or grammar here. Fair enough.

No-one really cares about you gong against Canon products. They really don't.
What people react to is false logic. Like a camera not using predictive focussing.

I'm really not making this up myself at all.

The a9 takes the best parts of Sony's existing on-sensor phase detection autofocus systems and takes them up a notch. Indeed, without a mirror blocking the autofocus points and with 60 calculations every second, the camera doesn't really need to 'predict' the same way other flagships do; it can just react to the scene in near-real time.

This is Dpreview's account of the camera's behavior. Whether or not this camera is fully predictive or reactive, it is capturing 20fps, and those 20fps are mostly in focus when in comparison with top-shelf flagship DSLRs that aren't shooting at 20fps.

So is this an official Sony wording, or is this DPR's assumption of what is happening?
I believe the the critical bit is the part I have highlighted in red - it suggests it does it differently, not that it does not do it at all. It reads to me like it calculates 60 times per second but what happens in the 1/60 second between calculations? I very much doubt the calculations will be done to coincide with the release time of the shutter.



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Re: Been with Canon for 12 years - wait or jump ship?
« Reply #57 on: October 26, 2017, 06:32:02 PM »

neuroanatomist

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Re: Been with Canon for 12 years - wait or jump ship?
« Reply #58 on: October 26, 2017, 06:49:14 PM »
I'm really not making this up myself at all.

The a9 takes the best parts of Sony's existing on-sensor phase detection autofocus systems and takes them up a notch. Indeed, without a mirror blocking the autofocus points and with 60 calculations every second, the camera doesn't really need to 'predict' the same way other flagships do; it can just react to the scene in near-real time.

This is Dpreview's account of the camera's behavior.

I'm really not making this up myself at all.

The earth is flat. The Round Earth doctrine is little more than an elaborate hoax.

This is the Flat Earth Society's account of the shape of the world. 

Happy Quote Unreliable Internet Sources In Blue Text Day, everyone!  ;D
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hne

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Re: Been with Canon for 12 years - wait or jump ship?
« Reply #59 on: October 26, 2017, 07:26:53 PM »
Have you tried flash photography on the kids? It gets you more light to work with.....

For dedicated portraits, sure, but for just hanging out, travel, candids and so on, the flash overshadows the moment, makes it about me, etc. and I almost never use it.

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Re: Been with Canon for 12 years - wait or jump ship?
« Reply #59 on: October 26, 2017, 07:26:53 PM »