February 21, 2018, 06:44:27 AM

Author Topic: Looking for upgrade recommendations from T6s  (Read 4054 times)

Talys

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Re: Looking for upgrade recommendations from T6s
« Reply #15 on: January 16, 2018, 12:11:54 AM »
The built-in flash on the 80D is a crime.  Pictures you get when it's up look like a cheap point an shoot, just like every other photo shot with a flash pointed directly at the subject, because a super bright tiny light pointed at the subject washes out all the details.

Don't get me wrong, though, I think that flashes are awesome.  You just have to point them at something other than right smack in the middle of the subject, and that's impossible when it's a fixed position right above the lens.  Instead, invest in a $100 third-party bounce flash, set it to manual, and point it at something that it can reflect off of, like the ceiling, or in the worst case scenario (like outside), pull out the built-in bounce card and point it straight up.  Don't set it to ETTL and point it at the subject; that's the same as the built-in flash, and will just give you a whole slew of washed out pictures.  If you get a cheap light stand and a remote trigger, you can also do really cool things with your flash. 
As a fill flash to reduce shadows caused by direct sun light the on-camera flash is perfectly usable.

And using the bounce card without anything to bounce off does not make sense. It is meant to produce a little catchlight with the main light coming from the ceiling. You would be wasting most light and the bounce card is not much bigger than direct flash.

But by looking at the first post, Duct_Taper does not seem to need much advice on lighting.


@midluk - If you point your bounce flash straight up, extend the bounce card and flash at full power,  80%-85% of the light goes nowhere, and 15-20% of it is caught by the bounce card and goes forward (or whatever direction the bounce card is pointing).  But the light is much softer and doesn't sear through all the detail of the subject.

Personally, I think it produces much nicer than setting your flash at 25% with a bounce flash and pointing it straight at the subject, as you must do with the built-in flash.

Just preference, I guess.  A Rogue Flashbender, a $15 knockoff, or even a piece of white cardstock and a rubber band is better, but there are lots of times when I just don't have time to fiddle, and the built-in card is better than nothing.

This photo was taken with a 600EX-RT flash using the built-in bounce card (and the flash head pointed to the sky), on a dark, rainy day, for exactly that reason -- there was no time to set up anything better.  Without the flash, the rain would have been flat and the blacks would have lacked any definition.  Without the bounce card (if I had just lowered the power and pointed it at the bird), I would have lost detail and the center of the image would have been noticeably brighter than the rest.

Oh, and the photo is on a 6DII! :D


Edit: I totally forgot about one other thing:  CTO gels!  Really, all the gels, but I'd really miss CTO's (color temperature orange). When I discovered flash gels, it was hobby-life-changing for my flash photography.  I was like, where have you been all my life.
« Last Edit: January 16, 2018, 03:20:16 AM by Talys »

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Re: Looking for upgrade recommendations from T6s
« Reply #15 on: January 16, 2018, 12:11:54 AM »

midluk

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Re: Looking for upgrade recommendations from T6s
« Reply #16 on: January 16, 2018, 04:28:28 AM »
@midluk - If you point your bounce flash straight up, extend the bounce card and flash at full power,  80%-85% of the light goes nowhere, and 15-20% of it is caught by the bounce card and goes forward (or whatever direction the bounce card is pointing).  But the light is much softer and doesn't sear through all the detail of the subject.

Personally, I think it produces much nicer than setting your flash at 25% with a bounce flash and pointing it straight at the subject, as you must do with the built-in flash.

Just preference, I guess.  A Rogue Flashbender, a $15 knockoff, or even a piece of white cardstock and a rubber band is better, but there are lots of times when I just don't have time to fiddle, and the built-in card is better than nothing.

This photo was taken with a 600EX-RT flash using the built-in bounce card (and the flash head pointed to the sky), on a dark, rainy day, for exactly that reason -- there was no time to set up anything better.  Without the flash, the rain would have been flat and the blacks would have lacked any definition.  Without the bounce card (if I had just lowered the power and pointed it at the bird), I would have lost detail and the center of the image would have been noticeably brighter than the rest.

Oh, and the photo is on a 6DII! :D


Edit: I totally forgot about one other thing:  CTO gels!  Really, all the gels, but I'd really miss CTO's (color temperature orange). When I discovered flash gels, it was hobby-life-changing for my flash photography.  I was like, where have you been all my life.

I seriously doubt that the bounce card throws 20% of the light towards your subject. It's definitely less then 5%. Less than 25% of the light hits the card, and only a small part of that is actually scattered at a ~90° angle towards the subject. I set up a 600EX pointing straigt at a wall and made the image just not saturate at 1/128 flash setting. Only at 1/8 flash setting the parts not hit by direct flash started to saturate (and the saturation only appeared in a small area that was likely still hit by direct light scattered in the window of the flash head). Only at 1/2 flash settings the parts definitely only hit by bounced light saturated. And this is with still some light bouncing around in the room, so in a free space the light loss through the bounce card is likely even worse.
The ratio between light from the bounce card and bounced light from the ceiling migth actually be around 20% for usual distances between camera, ceiling and subject.

The area on the bounce card actually hit by light is about twice the size of the flash tube. I don't think this small difference matters much in cases where the flash is not the only light source.

If you get a brighter image center with direct flash, set your flash head to a wider setting. If with "center" you mean "foreground", this only depends on your ratio between flash light and ambient (25% direct flash is much stronger than the small percentage from the bounce card at 100% flash setting). A small bounce card does not change the 1/r^2 falloff, so it will not change the exposure ratio between foreground and background assuming you get the same amount of light from flash on the foreground.
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cpsico

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Re: Looking for upgrade recommendations from T6s
« Reply #17 on: January 16, 2018, 08:48:53 AM »
Based on the lenses you already have i would get the canon 80d, if you are looking for a low light monster nothing beats a original canon 6D. If you price hunt you can get both for not that much more than a 6D II.
« Last Edit: January 16, 2018, 08:51:18 AM by cpsico »

Duct_Taper

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Re: Looking for upgrade recommendations from T6s
« Reply #18 on: January 16, 2018, 11:04:27 AM »
Thanks again for all the additional help!

Re: lighting, indeed the only reason I'd ever look to use the built-in flash is for daylight fill... which may not really be enough of a case to justify it.  I've found so far that using it for fill in most daylight situations requires the aperture to close down so much for sync speed that the end result isn't of much better quality than just not using the flash and adjusting highlights/shadows in post.  I'm going to experiment with the TT685 for daylight fill since it does HSS but a full-size flash is a bit unbalanced on top of the SL1/40 STM combo which I often walk around with.  If I'm using the flash for primary lighting it's always set up as bounce and/or off-camera.

The cost/selection of lenses to cover the FL range I have now is definitely something I'm trying to figure out - I had been looking at the 24-105 IS Mk1 or 28-135 IS and 85 1.8 or 100 2.0 as options alongside the 70-300 IS II which covers most of what I would need... just not sure if I'll really miss the 300-400 equiv. that I get from the 55-250 on APS-C.  I end up using the 55-250 at 250mm quite a bit, but at least half of that is for the magnification on flowers, bugs, etc where the 70-300 is probably close enough (.25x vs .31x).  For longer distances, based on Talys' comment here as well as reading through the crop vs FF for lots of mms thread, it sounds like in many cases cropping from the FF will be as good or better quality than having the extra reach on APS-C.  I'd love to get a 100-400 II no matter what body I end up with but that's at least a few years further off :)

Finally, re: STM vs other focusing types - I've really only used Canon STM lenses (plus the Sigma 35 Art which I rented) so I don't know any better, but am certainly looking to try out some USM ones to see if it makes a difference in the stuff I shoot.  I don't really expect to see a big difference on the zoom lenses as the 18-135 and 55-250 are both pretty fast and I rarely focus manually shooting with them, but I do find the 24/40/50 can be a bit slow to keep up with a high-energy 19mo old.

Talys

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Re: Looking for upgrade recommendations from T6s
« Reply #19 on: January 16, 2018, 12:33:49 PM »
I'd love to get a 100-400 II no matter what body I end up with but that's at least a few years further off :)

This is a beautiful lens, quite possibly my favorite zoom lens.  I guarantee you that you won't regret the investment :) :)

Regarding the crop factor -- after using the 6DII, which is my first full frame camera, I find that the wider crop on lenses is more useful than the higher density of pixels on the narrower crop, by quite a bit, because it's almost always easier to get a closer or crop a tighter (and get a lower resolution image), than it is to shoot a wider.

The exception is that the alternatives to the 10-18 STM on FF are pretty expensive (or, that the 10-18 is awfully cheap for good optics).

I think that 70-300 on 6DII is pretty good reach, generally speaking.  I'm sure you can give it a shot in a store and evaluate the difference.  My biggest problem with the 70-300 on 80D is that at f/5.6, it isn't easy to get ISO 100-200, and often not even ISO 400.  Really, no different than the 55-250.  How often do you wish you could have a lower ISO/higher shutter/wider aperture on your T6s with the 55-250... and it will be about the same on the 80D.  The noise is definitely improved, but you're still stuck wishing you could use low ISOs.  I don't know if you ever run into it, but something like an action shot in a gymnasium taken at f/5.6 looks way times better on the 6DII.

Also: the IQ of the non-nano 70-300 are pretty similar to the new, and much nicer/modern looking 70-300, though the AF on the new nano 70-300 is a lot better.  I mention that only because you can probably get the old one really cheap, used.


Finally, re: STM vs other focusing types - I've really only used Canon STM lenses (plus the Sigma 35 Art which I rented) so I don't know any better, but am certainly looking to try out some USM ones to see if it makes a difference in the stuff I shoot.  I don't really expect to see a big difference on the zoom lenses as the 18-135 and 55-250 are both pretty fast and I rarely focus manually shooting with them, but I do find the 24/40/50 can be a bit slow to keep up with a high-energy 19mo old.

Just go to a camera store and try any L lens out, like the 24-105.  The big difference is that if you need to manually focus - having to power the lens to focus is a real pain, and with STM, you can't really feel how far/quickly you're focusing, especially with some of the new ones where fast twist = bigger focus jump, slow twist = little focus jump. 

If you use tripod / live view / magnify / manual focus to get shots into perfect focus, or the part of the picture you really want in focus (like a flower), ring USM is feels more precise and (at least for me) feels easier to get just where I want it.

The other thing that you'll probably notice if you're a focus nut is that the L lenses are generally a lot more consistent in AF than their STM counterparts, which makes microadjust more useful.

I seriously doubt that the bounce card throws 20% of the light towards your subject. It's definitely less then 5%. Less than 25% of the light hits the card, and only a small part of that is actually scattered at a ~90° angle towards the subject. I set up a 600EX pointing straigt at a wall and made the image just not saturate at 1/128 flash setting. Only at 1/8 flash setting the parts not hit by direct flash started to saturate (and the saturation only appeared in a small area that was likely still hit by direct light scattered in the window of the flash head).

If you use a Sekonic and measure it outside from about 3ft from the flash, a 1/80 ISO 100 exposure might look something like -

no flash f/2 (direct exposure, ambient light)
flash pointed up with built-in bounce card pointed at meter f/4
flash pointed straight at meter f/16

Take it for what you will, I find that in the day, outside, when I need some fill in a bind, a bounce card aimed at the subject will often be enough to improve a shot, whereas pointing the flash directly at the subject almost never improves the shot.  Of course I would rather bounce it, have a softbox, use a flashbender, have someone hold a reflector, or whatever. 

« Last Edit: January 16, 2018, 12:54:52 PM by Talys »

stevelee

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Re: Looking for upgrade recommendations from T6s
« Reply #20 on: January 16, 2018, 01:15:17 PM »
Good discussion all the way around. Where there is some disagreement the points made on both sides are helpful to consider. I've learned a few things about lighting. For some reason, I hardly ever do outdoor portraits any more, and that's the situation where I'd use fill-in flash. When the occasion comes up again, I'll try the bounce card for fill-in flash rather than just raising the shadows slider in ACR.

As for super wide-angle, I have the 10-22mm zoom for my T3i, and I have just the 24 end of the kit STM zoom for my 6D2. So if the need comes up any time soon for something wider than that, I'll pull out the T3i. The 16-35mm f/4 looks tempting, and I see the f/2.8 on sale for just a couple hundred dollars more (pros and cons for each, I realize). But since I've not needed to use the T3i for that since I've had the 6D2, and given that the realtor for whom I used to shoot some interiors has retired, I don't think I need to be in any rush. Maybe replacing the cheap 75-300mm telephoto with something better will be more of a priority.

wsmith96

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Re: Looking for upgrade recommendations from T6s
« Reply #21 on: January 16, 2018, 02:42:25 PM »
Hi everyone,

I bought a T6s about a year and a half ago as my first DSLR, mainly to get better pictures of my son (he's 19 months old now) than was possible with an iPhone.  Since then I've gotten pretty interested in photography... mainly family stuff but also a decent bit of landscape and wildlife for fun.  My current kit is:

Bodies - T6s w/ battery grip, SL1 (bought used)
Lenses - 18-135 STM, 55-250 STM, 24 STM, 40 STM, 50 STM
Lighting - 2x Godox TT685c, Godox X1c, and a basic backdrop and a couple of lightstands / umbrellas

I've been happy with both cameras and plan to keep both (T6s for my wife and SL1 as a cheap/light camera for travel or situations where I don't want to risk an expensive body), but I've learned enough about how cameras work that there are a few things that the T6s is missing that I'd like to have.

Basically, I've come up with the following requirements for a new body and am looking for advice on what to do.

Must haves:
  • Touchscreen (both T6s and SL1 have this and I like it too much to give it up)
  • Anti-flicker mode (I expect to be shooting indoor sports with my son eventually)
  • Full auto-ISO customization (T6s and SL1 both only have a setting for "max auto" - I want some control over the min shutter speed)
  • Custom modes on the mode dial - at least 2
  • DPAF (both the T6s and SL1 are decent in live view but I have heard DPAF is a big improvement)
  • Dedicated rear AF-On button (I'd like to use BBF but find the T6s and SL1 awkward when configured to use the * button)
  • Better RAW buffer depth (T6s and SL1 are both ~7 frames)
  • Better low-light AF (T6s is rated to -0.5 EV and I've had a few situations where it's really struggled)

Nice to haves:
  • Tilty-flippy screen
  • SD card storage (to keep only one card format)
  • In-viewfinder level
  • Better framerate (T6s is 5fps and SL1 is 4)
  • Larger/nicer viewfinder
  • AFMA
  • GPS
  • Built-in Wifi (I don't use it that much but it can be handy to have)
  • Built-in flash (again, don't use it that much but it's occasionally handy)

I haven't had any complaints about IQ from the T6s or SL1 so I'm not specfically looking for improvement there but if it comes along with the above then I won't be upset :)

Budget is, as always, a consideration... I'd like to spend as little as possible to get what I'm looking for, but I'm willing to wait/save for longer if it's really worth getting something more expensive.

tl;dr - Is the 80D a good bet or should I save/wait and get either the 6D II or 7D III?  Or switch to Sony or Nikon? :)

I recommend the 80D as you've suggested for yourself.  It's a fine camera that will serve you well and fits your lenses and listed needs.
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Re: Looking for upgrade recommendations from T6s
« Reply #21 on: January 16, 2018, 02:42:25 PM »

ken

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Re: Looking for upgrade recommendations from T6s
« Reply #22 on: January 16, 2018, 05:14:59 PM »
Here's a thought: If you're thinking about possibly saving up for the 6D ii, you could stretch that a bit more and get the 80D along with the original 6D (probably with kit lens if you go used). You'd have the 80D for your main camera, and the 6D for low-light shooting. You could make use of your current lenses on the 80D, and acquire EF lenses over time, maybe starting with used or rentals.

The original 6D doesn't have the tilt screen and other niceties that you're looking for, but it takes amazing photos, and I can't conceive of giving up the low-light capability. I was holding out for the 6D ii myself, but it wasn't super compelling to me. So I'm waiting to see what the Canon FF mirrorless looks like... and will either go that route... or something else. I *do* have a need for the flippy / tilty screen, or else I'd already have jumped on the 5D iv.
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dickgrafixstop

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Re: Looking for upgrade recommendations from T6s
« Reply #23 on: January 17, 2018, 12:51:56 AM »
I'd recommend another approach.  Unless you have identified situations where the T6s absolutely cannot perform to your desire, keep using it.  If GAS - gear acquisition syndrom - is severe, concentrate on full frame lenses.  With a youngster, an 85mm is a terrific lens to keep your distance but get good close-up portraits.  The f1.4 is supposed to be phenomonal but the f1.8 is budget friendly.  the 70-300is gives you additional range from your 55-250 at a reasonable price.  Consider adding a hot shoe flash or two for portability and perhaps some radio control units.
Someone has already recommended the 24-105L which will be a step up from anything you currently have image quality wise. 
If you absolutely have to have a new body, give the 70D a hard look.  Dual pixel, better viewfinder, improved low light, la di da da.  Sell the T6s, give the SL1 to your wife (it will still be around for backup) and move on.

drob

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Re: Looking for upgrade recommendations from T6s
« Reply #24 on: January 17, 2018, 02:01:05 AM »
What about the SL2 and a few lenses? Then start saving up for 6D2 or 90D or whatever else comes down the line in a year or 2. But start your lens collection.

Duct_Taper

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Re: Looking for upgrade recommendations from T6s
« Reply #25 on: January 18, 2018, 12:15:18 PM »
I've definitely considered the original 6D as well as the SL2 as options, but neither of them have some of the key things that are my reasons for upgrading or that I want to keep (DPAF, touchscreen for the 6D and Auto-ISO, custom modes, AF-On button for the SL2).

The more I think about it the more I'm tempted to look at the 6DII for the high ISO advantage... I also realized I have a 28-90 4-5.6 II lens kicking around from an old film camera that I could use at least initially even though I know it's not a great performer.

I'm still struggling with justifying the lenses though... because for most of them it doesn't make much sense to sell the EF-S lenses while I still have EF-S bodies.  E.g. the 18-135 is a better combination of range and IQ on EF-S than just about any FF lens would be for general purpose stuff, and the 70-300 isn't really that much more useful than the 55-250 while being heavier and bulkier.  So in the end it probably means having two sets of lenses for the same purposes on the different sensor sizes rather than really having much commonality.

Maybe I should just sell it all and get everything FF? :)

Talys

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Re: Looking for upgrade recommendations from T6s
« Reply #26 on: January 18, 2018, 01:09:28 PM »
Maybe I should just sell it all and get everything FF? :)

If you can afford it, and there is nothing about crop that really draws you (a little extra reach once you get to the point where you can't afford longer focal lengths, a smaller body, or smaller size of some APS-C lens)... I'm sure that would make you happy :)

Personally, I've kept a bunch of my APSC gear for my home studio, though last year, I sold a whole bunch of it.  When I control lighting, manually set exposure, and manually focus, the practical difference in the final image between t2/t3/5/t6/70d/80d/6dii are pretty small.

This will sound so silly, but you'll also notice that the mirror sound from the 80D or 6DII is much more satisfying :D

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Re: Looking for upgrade recommendations from T6s
« Reply #26 on: January 18, 2018, 01:09:28 PM »