February 17, 2018, 03:11:31 PM

Author Topic: The Coming EF-M Prime to be 50mm Equivalent for APS-C EOS M [CR2]  (Read 8479 times)

ahsanford

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Re: The Coming EF-M Prime to be 50mm Equivalent for APS-C EOS M [CR2]
« Reply #60 on: February 01, 2018, 03:37:39 PM »
And if it is a mix of both, or if Canon wants to broaden the M's base... ?

Look at EF-S for how that works out.  They tried to 'get fancy' with it with $600-$1000 lenses, and they haven't tried that again in ages.

My guess is if the EF-M lens requested is going to cost more than X, Canon has some analysis that says that the market is too small to support that ask, the risk to keeping people in EF-M instead of moving up to FF increases, etc. and they'll just point us to the adaptor.

The question is, what is X for EF-M?  $500?

- A

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Re: The Coming EF-M Prime to be 50mm Equivalent for APS-C EOS M [CR2]
« Reply #60 on: February 01, 2018, 03:37:39 PM »

Ditboy

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Re: The Coming EF-M Prime to be 50mm Equivalent for APS-C EOS M [CR2]
« Reply #61 on: February 01, 2018, 06:33:39 PM »
Keep in mind that the EOS M line is designed and built by the point-and-shoot G series group and not the DSLR side. That has been the problem all along. The two sides should compare notes, make a decent APS-C camera for serious shooters and use it to phase out the Rebel and SL line. Then come in with some nice M lenses to flush it out. I have four M5's and use them for 75% of my newspaper work. (I do have available DSLR's for the occasional sports) But basically the only Canon lens I use is the 22mm f2. I got tired of waiting for Canon and bought the Mitakon Zhongyi Speedmaster 35mm f/0.95 Mark II. I also have several of the EF-M lenses by Rokinon/Samyang. I also have been buying Canon FD lenses to use. They are all manual focus which isn't for everyone, but with over 40 years in the business, been there done that. I would still love for Canon to make an EF-M 35 prime that is AT LEAST 1.8, but preferably 1.4, but since it is the G Series people, I'm guessing a 1.4 will be deemed "too big" and they'll go with 1.8. Let's hope it has IS too. But, I already have 13 prime lenses from 8mm to 400mm in addition the EF-M 10-22, 18-55, 18-150 & 55-200. So, I'm moving forward no matter what Canon does. And I have my eye on the just announced Venus Optics Laowa 9mm f/2.8 which will be available in EF-M...

ahsanford

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Re: The Coming EF-M Prime to be 50mm Equivalent for APS-C EOS M [CR2]
« Reply #62 on: February 01, 2018, 06:40:58 PM »
The two sides should compare notes, make a decent APS-C camera for serious shooters and use it to phase out the Rebel and SL line.

Certain to happen, yes, but the question is when.  Canon's very good at selling these Rebel SLRs and doesn't want to jeopardize that by going mirrorless in its bread and butter sales area too soon / too abruptly.  It makes sense to sell a mirroless Rebel right alongside the regular Rebel for one generation as separate options, then, one generation later, only the mirrorless one is updated and the SLR at that price point becomes RIP.  Canon then ratchets up one more price point higher in the line and does it again.

To simply convert the next Rebel to mirrorless with no mirrored version available is to sign up that market for EVF lag, less AF responsiveness, fast draining batteries, etc. and perhaps Canon has market research to suggest that if they did this, Nikon would scoop up their Rebel business with their equivalent SLRs.

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bf

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Re: The Coming EF-M Prime to be 50mm Equivalent for APS-C EOS M [CR2]
« Reply #63 on: February 01, 2018, 07:23:48 PM »
And if it is a mix of both, or if Canon wants to broaden the M's base... ?

Look at EF-S for how that works out.  They tried to 'get fancy' with it with $600-$1000 lenses, and they haven't tried that again in ages.

My guess is if the EF-M lens requested is going to cost more than X, Canon has some analysis that says that the market is too small to support that ask, the risk to keeping people in EF-M instead of moving up to FF increases, etc. and they'll just point us to the adaptor.

The question is, what is X for EF-M?  $500?

- A
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rrcphoto

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Re: The Coming EF-M Prime to be 50mm Equivalent for APS-C EOS M [CR2]
« Reply #64 on: February 01, 2018, 08:15:57 PM »
And if it is a mix of both, or if Canon wants to broaden the M's base... ?

Look at EF-S for how that works out.  They tried to 'get fancy' with it with $600-$1000 lenses, and they haven't tried that again in ages.

My guess is if the EF-M lens requested is going to cost more than X, Canon has some analysis that says that the market is too small to support that ask, the risk to keeping people in EF-M instead of moving up to FF increases, etc. and they'll just point us to the adaptor.

The question is, what is X for EF-M?  $500?

- A

the 18-150 came out at 599, the most expensive M  lens to date.

if there is a price point canon's designing to that, would eliminate alot of lenses.

slclick

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Re: The Coming EF-M Prime to be 50mm Equivalent for APS-C EOS M [CR2]
« Reply #65 on: February 01, 2018, 09:16:57 PM »
And if it is a mix of both, or if Canon wants to broaden the M's base... ?

Look at EF-S for how that works out.  They tried to 'get fancy' with it with $600-$1000 lenses, and they haven't tried that again in ages.

My guess is if the EF-M lens requested is going to cost more than X, Canon has some analysis that says that the market is too small to support that ask, the risk to keeping people in EF-M instead of moving up to FF increases, etc. and they'll just point us to the adaptor.

The question is, what is X for EF-M?  $500?

- A

the 18-150 came out at 599, the most expensive M  lens to date.

if there is a price point canon's designing to that, would eliminate alot of lenses.

I will gladly part with my 18-150 for another M Prime. In fact I'll sell it tonight if I could get 75% of what I paid for it.
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Talys

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Re: The Coming EF-M Prime to be 50mm Equivalent for APS-C EOS M [CR2]
« Reply #66 on: February 02, 2018, 01:39:05 AM »
The second prime lens in 2 1/2 years for the EF-M mount. It doesn't look like Canon have any intention of creating a set of prime lenses for the M series cameras, at least, not anytime soon.

I think it is pretty simple.  Will enough folks who own APS-C cameras - and especially the M5 - buy enough primes to make it worthwhile for Canon to make them?  Since we haven't seen too much more than the standard zooms for EF-S, it seems that they already have that info - and the answer is no.  I think there are a lot of folks like me - I haven't used a prime since my Olympus OM-1 was replaced by a Canon SLR in the mid 1990's.  I have no interest whatsoever in getting a prime.  The zoom lenses cover everything and do everything that I ever need.  My guess is that the majority of folks who use crop cameras feel the same way (Canon rumors users are the exception).  Their sales info and marketing research must tell them that primes are primarily for FF camera owners.

Pretty much that.  A know a fair number of people who are "lite hobbyists" -- they buy a MILC or a DSLR, but really just use kit zooms and are quite happy with that.  There's absolutely nothing wrong with that market, and I'm not trying to be derogatory or elitist, or anything like that -- but even if they get talked into buying an inexpensive prime, like a 50/1.8STM, they never use it.

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Re: The Coming EF-M Prime to be 50mm Equivalent for APS-C EOS M [CR2]
« Reply #66 on: February 02, 2018, 01:39:05 AM »

AvTvM

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Re: The Coming EF-M Prime to be 50mm Equivalent for APS-C EOS M [CR2]
« Reply #67 on: February 02, 2018, 04:16:17 AM »
Pretty much that.  A know a fair number of people who are "lite hobbyists" -- they buy a MILC or a DSLR, but really just use kit zooms and are quite happy with that.  There's absolutely nothing wrong with that market, and I'm not trying to be derogatory or elitist, or anything like that -- but even if they get talked into buying an inexpensive prime, like a 50/1.8STM, they never use it.

exactly! Zooms rule supreme. Majority of "casual camera users" have a camera with a zoom mounted, because they hate being stuck with a fixed focal prime lens in their smartphones.

I have EF and EF-M primes and zooms ... and today 80% of my images are captured using EOS M [original] plus EF-M 18-55 kit lens. It always comes down to do i want "flexibility in framing a shot and options for perspectives" or only 1 possible focal length or having to carry along more than 1 lens ... and IQ-wise even small, compact zooms are "more than good enough" ... not much of an IQ sacrifice "in real life" vs. primes. Only real difference is (typically) 2 stops slower speed and less potential for subject isolation if/when desired.

brad-man

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Re: The Coming EF-M Prime to be 50mm Equivalent for APS-C EOS M [CR2]
« Reply #68 on: February 03, 2018, 08:16:09 AM »
Pretty much that.  A know a fair number of people who are "lite hobbyists" -- they buy a MILC or a DSLR, but really just use kit zooms and are quite happy with that.  There's absolutely nothing wrong with that market, and I'm not trying to be derogatory or elitist, or anything like that -- but even if they get talked into buying an inexpensive prime, like a 50/1.8STM, they never use it.

exactly! Zooms rule supreme. Majority of "casual camera users" have a camera with a zoom mounted, because they hate being stuck with a fixed focal prime lens in their smartphones.

I have EF and EF-M primes and zooms ... and today 80% of my images are captured using EOS M [original] plus EF-M 18-55 kit lens. It always comes down to do i want "flexibility in framing a shot and options for perspectives" or only 1 possible focal length or having to carry along more than 1 lens ... and IQ-wise even small, compact zooms are "more than good enough" ... not much of an IQ sacrifice "in real life" vs. primes. Only real difference is (typically) 2 stops slower speed and less potential for subject isolation if/when desired.

The fact that zooms are far more popular than primes is not a new revelation. The question is whether the market for faster primes for the M is large enough for Canon to be bothered to produce them. I would argue that a better lens selection for the M would lead to an even larger market share of camera sales for Canon by bringing in enthusiasts that want more than a hi-res point & shoot. Of course I have no data to back that up. I imagine that this upcoming prime's sales figures will be the "canary in the coal mine" for future M prime development. I can guarantee at least one sale :)
« Last Edit: February 03, 2018, 08:25:46 AM by brad-man »

barryreid

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Re: The Coming EF-M Prime to be 50mm Equivalent for APS-C EOS M [CR2]
« Reply #69 on: February 05, 2018, 07:47:43 AM »
Given that there is a 22 a 22mm & a 28mm already isn't it somewhat ridiculous that the next prime available in EF-M could be a 32mm.

Surely a 50-60mm f/2 (IS, maybe) to pair up with the 22 f/2 would make for a more balanced approach.

BillB

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Re: The Coming EF-M Prime to be 50mm Equivalent for APS-C EOS M [CR2]
« Reply #70 on: February 05, 2018, 10:57:07 AM »
Given that there is a 22 a 22mm & a 28mm already isn't it somewhat ridiculous that the next prime available in EF-M could be a 32mm.

Surely a 50-60mm f/2 (IS, maybe) to pair up with the 22 f/2 would make for a more balanced approach.

I'm with you on that.  A 50ish prime would also pair nicely with the 11-22 zoom.   On the other hand, there is already the 50 f1.8, which can be adapted, and some people who post here feel quite strongly that the 28mm f3.5 doesn't meet the need for a fast normal prime.  Then there are those who feel the need for lots of fast primes of unspecified focal length and resent Canon's failure to provide them.

Talys

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Re: The Coming EF-M Prime to be 50mm Equivalent for APS-C EOS M [CR2]
« Reply #71 on: February 05, 2018, 11:17:38 AM »
Given that there is a 22 a 22mm & a 28mm already isn't it somewhat ridiculous that the next prime available in EF-M could be a 32mm.

Surely a 50-60mm f/2 (IS, maybe) to pair up with the 22 f/2 would make for a more balanced approach.

I'm with you on that.  A 50ish prime would also pair nicely with the 11-22 zoom.   On the other hand, there is already the 50 f1.8, which can be adapted, and some people who post here feel quite strongly that the 28mm f3.5 doesn't meet the need for a fast normal prime.  Then there are those who feel the need for lots of fast primes of unspecified focal length and resent Canon's failure to provide them.

I think they're both pretty important.  Obviously, 50mm equivalent is a key FL.

And, the 50-60 would be your 85mm equivalent, so that is an important FL, with the benefit of the 50mm optical formula that's very space efficient (ie we can have a small, fast, EFM prime).  Just look at the glass size of the first and last elements on a 50/1.8, and imagine that without all the plastic around it and a narrower barrel -- then reduce the diameter! :D

I'm suppose the Canon approach is to start wide, and work towards tele, and my only guess is that Canon thinks that a big chunk of the EF-M crowd prefers zooms, so those primes are a lower priority.

BillB

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Re: The Coming EF-M Prime to be 50mm Equivalent for APS-C EOS M [CR2]
« Reply #72 on: February 05, 2018, 11:49:01 AM »
Given that there is a 22 a 22mm & a 28mm already isn't it somewhat ridiculous that the next prime available in EF-M could be a 32mm.

Surely a 50-60mm f/2 (IS, maybe) to pair up with the 22 f/2 would make for a more balanced approach.

I'm with you on that.  A 50ish prime would also pair nicely with the 11-22 zoom.   On the other hand, there is already the 50 f1.8, which can be adapted, and some people who post here feel quite strongly that the 28mm f3.5 doesn't meet the need for a fast normal prime.  Then there are those who feel the need for lots of fast primes of unspecified focal length and resent Canon's failure to provide them.

I think they're both pretty important.  Obviously, 50mm equivalent is a key FL.

And, the 50-60 would be your 85mm equivalent, so that is an important FL, with the benefit of the 50mm optical formula that's very space efficient (ie we can have a small, fast, EFM prime).  Just look at the glass size of the first and last elements on a 50/1.8, and imagine that without all the plastic around it and a narrower barrel -- then reduce the diameter! :D

I'm suppose the Canon approach is to start wide, and work towards tele, and my only guess is that Canon thinks that a big chunk of the EF-M crowd prefers zooms, so those primes are a lower priority.

It seems to me that for aps-c in general and EF-M in particular, the main Canon lens strategy has been to develop affordable (and slowish) zooms with very good IQ that are quite good for video (i.e. with STM).  What I wonder is whether Canon thinks there is a need for more of these affordable EF-S and EF-M zooms, or whether they are thinking  it is time for some more primes, even some pricier zooms.  Of course, the answer could be none of the above and there aren't going be many more EF-S and EF-M lens designs coming out. 



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Re: The Coming EF-M Prime to be 50mm Equivalent for APS-C EOS M [CR2]
« Reply #72 on: February 05, 2018, 11:49:01 AM »

rrcphoto

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Re: The Coming EF-M Prime to be 50mm Equivalent for APS-C EOS M [CR2]
« Reply #73 on: February 05, 2018, 12:58:19 PM »
And if it is a mix of both, or if Canon wants to broaden the M's base... ?

Look at EF-S for how that works out.  They tried to 'get fancy' with it with $600-$1000 lenses, and they haven't tried that again in ages.

My guess is if the EF-M lens requested is going to cost more than X, Canon has some analysis that says that the market is too small to support that ask, the risk to keeping people in EF-M instead of moving up to FF increases, etc. and they'll just point us to the adaptor.

The question is, what is X for EF-M?  $500?

- A

the 18-150 came out at 599, the most expensive M  lens to date.

if there is a price point canon's designing to that, would eliminate alot of lenses.

I will gladly part with my 18-150 for another M Prime. In fact I'll sell it tonight if I could get 75% of what I paid for it.

I wouldn't.  Never.  the 18-150 + DLO is a wickedly good combination.

rrcphoto

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Re: The Coming EF-M Prime to be 50mm Equivalent for APS-C EOS M [CR2]
« Reply #74 on: February 05, 2018, 01:00:35 PM »
Given that there is a 22 a 22mm & a 28mm already isn't it somewhat ridiculous that the next prime available in EF-M could be a 32mm.

Surely a 50-60mm f/2 (IS, maybe) to pair up with the 22 f/2 would make for a more balanced approach.

I'm with you on that.  A 50ish prime would also pair nicely with the 11-22 zoom.   On the other hand, there is already the 50 f1.8, which can be adapted, and some people who post here feel quite strongly that the 28mm f3.5 doesn't meet the need for a fast normal prime.  Then there are those who feel the need for lots of fast primes of unspecified focal length and resent Canon's failure to provide them.

I think they're both pretty important.  Obviously, 50mm equivalent is a key FL.

And, the 50-60 would be your 85mm equivalent, so that is an important FL, with the benefit of the 50mm optical formula that's very space efficient (ie we can have a small, fast, EFM prime).  Just look at the glass size of the first and last elements on a 50/1.8, and imagine that without all the plastic around it and a narrower barrel -- then reduce the diameter! :D

I'm suppose the Canon approach is to start wide, and work towards tele, and my only guess is that Canon thinks that a big chunk of the EF-M crowd prefers zooms, so those primes are a lower priority.

the zooms are tiny, optically good, cheap - it's really hard to say  no to that, and they are far more liberating than a few primes at some medium focal ranges.

canon rumors FORUM

Re: The Coming EF-M Prime to be 50mm Equivalent for APS-C EOS M [CR2]
« Reply #74 on: February 05, 2018, 01:00:35 PM »