May 24, 2018, 02:01:58 PM

Author Topic: Tracking with SL2 and suggestions to shoot Karate games.  (Read 5953 times)

slclick

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Re: Tracking with SL2 and suggestions to shoot Karate games.
« Reply #15 on: March 19, 2018, 03:17:34 PM »
I would think you are going to get good, not great results with an SL2 if you have a great technique. Akin to BIF with a 6D and a Sigma 150-600. The machine isn't geared towards those styles of shooting but you will get some keepers with a keen skillset. Once again, if they could do it with film....yadda yadda yadda
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Re: Tracking with SL2 and suggestions to shoot Karate games.
« Reply #15 on: March 19, 2018, 03:17:34 PM »

Iago

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Re: Tracking with SL2 and suggestions to shoot Karate games.
« Reply #16 on: March 19, 2018, 04:25:57 PM »
Assume to location will have low / bad light.  If you have not been to this competition before, how close you are going to get is unknown.  I think that will affect your lens choice.  There will be a mat / ring and the higher the rank, the faster they will move, the farther they will move 5ft to 15ft.  Watch out for mirrors, I have had the camera miss focus and hit on the reflection.  There may be several group photos as well.  Sparring will be fast, forms/ kata may fallow a pattern ( strike / pause / strike / pause )
Suggestions
Fast zoom lens (May need to rent) maybe the 50-100 f1.8 sigma or 24 -70 f2.8
Single focus point
AI servo
Back button focus.
Shoot in RAW
Shutter priority 1/160 to 1/200 (Little motion Blur)

Mt Spokane Photography

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Re: Tracking with SL2 and suggestions to shoot Karate games.
« Reply #17 on: March 19, 2018, 05:33:54 PM »
I use live view with my SL2 whenever I can.  Lots and lots of AF points and tracking is good, but not great.  Lack of light can be a issue with a crop camera.
Thanks for the information. I never used servo tracking with live view. I will check the manual for settings. I might need to buy backup battery a well. There will be a good light for the eye. But fast shutter speeds is going to be a problem with crop.  With fast shutter speed (1/800) and f/2, iso's are around 3200. I no longer have 85mm. I end up using Sigma 105mm f2.8 lens.  With live view, light is going to be a problem.

Live view does not affect the light situation, its the lens and the camera body.  It cost less to upgrade cameras than to get a expensive ultra fast lens.  The SL2 can do ISO 3200 pretty well, but DR can be a issue, you need accurate exposure.  With a FF body, ISO 3200 is a breeze.
I will be using veryr high iso (3200 or 6400) in order to use high SS. How does view finder shooting compare with live view. Not sure if i can select AF point other than center point. Or I can just use all 9 AF points with Servo tracking and see how it works. I need to look for used 6D to upgrade camera and need lens like 24-105mm and 85mm prime. I will planning to play around with SL2 little bit over weekend and see how it goes.
Thanks for the information.

With the sl2 in live view, just touch the place on the lcd where you want focus and it focuses very fast.  Then, it will track as long as the subject is large enough.  You can set the camera to focus and shoot the spot you touch, or just focus on that spot and begin tracking.  Face recognition plus tracking can be used, the camera needs to be stable though.

jd7

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Re: Tracking with SL2 and suggestions to shoot Karate games.
« Reply #18 on: March 19, 2018, 06:49:01 PM »
Assume to location will have low / bad light.  If you have not been to this competition before, how close you are going to get is unknown.  I think that will affect your lens choice.  There will be a mat / ring and the higher the rank, the faster they will move, the farther they will move 5ft to 15ft.  Watch out for mirrors, I have had the camera miss focus and hit on the reflection.  There may be several group photos as well.  Sparring will be fast, forms/ kata may fallow a pattern ( strike / pause / strike / pause )
Suggestions
Fast zoom lens (May need to rent) maybe the 50-100 f1.8 sigma or 24 -70 f2.8
Single focus point
AI servo
Back button focus.
Shoot in RAW
Shutter priority 1/160 to 1/200 (Little motion Blur)

I have not used the SL2 but I have a 6D, and the AF systems seems to have some similarities, ie the peripheral AF points are line sensors, with only the centre point being cross-type (and the 6D gets an extra vertical line sensor with f/2.8 and wider aperture lenses).

If I was using my 6D, I would largely agree with what lago has said. I doubt you would have much luck with the peripheral AF points. However I would add:

make sure you pre-focus - you don't want the lens to have to change focus by much when you want to take a shot. In fact, consider taking some shots where you pre-focus on a point and wait for the action to come to that point (ie manual focus)

when you are using AF, start the AF system before you are ready to take the shot, ie give the AF system time to start tracking your subject (remembering that if you only have the centre AF point active, you will need to keep it over your subject) for a few moments before you take the shot

if you are using a lens with IS/OS, turn it off or else make sure it is active well before you are ready to the take the shot so the system has time to sort itself out (although a recent article has suggested that with Sigma's OS, you need to do that even if you have OS off)

don't rule out using your 50 f/1.8. Shooting it at f/2 will give you an extra stop over either of your Sigma lenses, and help you keep your ISO down a bit.  That assumes 50mm will get you close enough for decent photos (but remember you can crop a bit later). It also assumes you won't be so close that 50mm at f/2 will give you such a shallow DOF that you don't have much chance to get action shots in focus, although even then I would try at least a few shots like that given it sounds like you will be shooting in pretty dim light and you need a fast shutter time.

I wonder whether 1/200th will be fast enough to stop the action, but I don't have experience with martial arts specifically so I'm happy to defer to lago on that.

I see other people have suggested using liveview. As I said I don't have any experience with the SL2 so I cannot comment on that. It may be it is the way to go. Otherwise, though, I'd go with the above approach.
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ritholtz

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Re: Tracking with SL2 and suggestions to shoot Karate games.
« Reply #19 on: March 20, 2018, 01:31:57 AM »
Hi ritholtz.
To be fair you ask how to use the gear you have to the best effect, you get a suggestion and query it, would it have been more relevant to suggest you get a 7DII or 1DxII instead? No as that won’t help you track with an SL2 whereas using live view might!

Cheers, Graham.

DPR suggested to use live view during servo tracking. Then what is the point of buying DSLR. Servo tracking suppose to be strengths of DSLR. If we are going to use live view with DSLR, I should be buying one of M.
Thanks Graham. I bought 80d and downgraded to SL2. Size was one of the reason. 80d felt too big for me. 
70D, 10-18mm, 17-50mm F2.8, 85mm F1.8, 55-250 STM.

ritholtz

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Re: Tracking with SL2 and suggestions to shoot Karate games.
« Reply #20 on: March 20, 2018, 01:36:47 AM »
I would think you are going to get good, not great results with an SL2 if you have a great technique. Akin to BIF with a 6D and a Sigma 150-600. The machine isn't geared towards those styles of shooting but you will get some keepers with a keen skillset. Once again, if they could do it with film....yadda yadda yadda
Tried some tracking with soccer game using Sigma 105mm. I didn't understand what was going with focusing system  using bbf, ai-servo and all AF points (auto). It doesn't show active focus points by blinking while tracking.  SL2 has very bad bbf buttons. Canon hid them into the frame. What happens if I track a subject using shutter button. I guess, I won't be able to continuously track subject right ( with full shutter button stopping tracking)?.
70D, 10-18mm, 17-50mm F2.8, 85mm F1.8, 55-250 STM.

ritholtz

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Re: Tracking with SL2 and suggestions to shoot Karate games.
« Reply #21 on: March 20, 2018, 01:46:13 AM »
Assume to location will have low / bad light.  If you have not been to this competition before, how close you are going to get is unknown.  I think that will affect your lens choice.  There will be a mat / ring and the higher the rank, the faster they will move, the farther they will move 5ft to 15ft.  Watch out for mirrors, I have had the camera miss focus and hit on the reflection.  There may be several group photos as well.  Sparring will be fast, forms/ kata may fallow a pattern ( strike / pause / strike / pause )
Suggestions
Fast zoom lens (May need to rent) maybe the 50-100 f1.8 sigma or 24 -70 f2.8
Single focus point
AI servo
Back button focus.
Shoot in RAW
Shutter priority 1/160 to 1/200 (Little motion Blur)
Thanks Iago for the information. I have sigma 17-50mm and 105mm. I did this once before using Canon 85mm/Sigma 17-50mm with 70d. I was able to use servo tracking with all AF points. 70d has a option to start from AF point close to the face.  There do some fights and some just skills. I was using SS around 1/500 to 1/800 for fights.  Do you think, 1/200 is going to be fine? This is very casual activity done in small school indoor places.  I am just trying to understand this tracking stuff.    I was able to do ok with 70d and Canon 85mm. It was always able to find some player or gloves. I was using 1/800 and high iso.
« Last Edit: March 31, 2018, 03:03:30 PM by ritholtz »
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Re: Tracking with SL2 and suggestions to shoot Karate games.
« Reply #21 on: March 20, 2018, 01:46:13 AM »

Valvebounce

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Re: Tracking with SL2 and suggestions to shoot Karate games.
« Reply #22 on: March 20, 2018, 05:05:35 AM »
Hi ritholtz.
I should have added that Angela has the 100D (SL1) which she has used for motor racing and even with relatively slow (55-250 non STM) moving lenses had reasonable success tracking approaching cars so I would hope that the SL2 would be somewhat better if paired with lenses that can move focus more quickly. I know karate has a very different movement profile from motor racing.  :)
Angela didn’t get to try her new 55-250 STM Lens this year as it was snowing at the races and she preferred not to risk ruining the “relatively speaking non weather sealed” gear with water damage!
Snow flakes turn in to rather large drops of water when they melt! :o :)

Cheers, Graham.

Hi ritholtz.
To be fair you ask how to use the gear you have to the best effect, you get a suggestion and query it, would it have been more relevant to suggest you get a 7DII or 1DxII instead? No as that won’t help you track with an SL2 whereas using live view might!

Cheers, Graham.

DPR suggested to use live view during servo tracking. Then what is the point of buying DSLR. Servo tracking suppose to be strengths of DSLR. If we are going to use live view with DSLR, I should be buying one of M.
Thanks Graham. I bought 80d and downgraded to SL2. Size was one of the reason. 80d felt too big for me.
7DII+Grip, 1DsIII, 7D+Grip, 40D+Grip, EF 24-105 f4L EF-S 17-85, EF-S 10-22, EF 70-200 f2.8 L IS II, EF 1.4xIII, 2xIII, EF 100-400 f/4.5-5.6l IS II, Σ17-70 f2.8-4 C, EF 50mm f1.8, YN600EX-RT, YN-E3-RT, Filters, Remotes, Macro tubes, Tripods, heads etc!

1DsIII, 20D, 24-105, 17-85, Nifty 50 pre owned

ritholtz

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Re: Tracking with SL2 and suggestions to shoot Karate games.
« Reply #23 on: March 20, 2018, 05:20:08 PM »
I use live view with my SL2 whenever I can.  Lots and lots of AF points and tracking is good, but not great.  Lack of light can be a issue with a crop camera.
Thanks for the information. I never used servo tracking with live view. I will check the manual for settings. I might need to buy backup battery a well. There will be a good light for the eye. But fast shutter speeds is going to be a problem with crop.  With fast shutter speed (1/800) and f/2, iso's are around 3200. I no longer have 85mm. I end up using Sigma 105mm f2.8 lens.  With live view, light is going to be a problem.

Live view does not affect the light situation, its the lens and the camera body.  It cost less to upgrade cameras than to get a expensive ultra fast lens.  The SL2 can do ISO 3200 pretty well, but DR can be a issue, you need accurate exposure.  With a FF body, ISO 3200 is a breeze.
I will be using veryr high iso (3200 or 6400) in order to use high SS. How does view finder shooting compare with live view. Not sure if i can select AF point other than center point. Or I can just use all 9 AF points with Servo tracking and see how it works. I need to look for used 6D to upgrade camera and need lens like 24-105mm and 85mm prime. I will planning to play around with SL2 little bit over weekend and see how it goes.
Thanks for the information.

With the sl2 in live view, just touch the place on the lcd where you want focus and it focuses very fast.  Then, it will track as long as the subject is large enough.  You can set the camera to focus and shoot the spot you touch, or just focus on that spot and begin tracking.  Face recognition plus tracking can be used, the camera needs to be stable though.
I  tried little bit with face+tracking. It worked pretty good. I can use live view indoors if needed. I guess, I need to look into M series for my future purchase to get smaller body with lot of features. Thanks again.
70D, 10-18mm, 17-50mm F2.8, 85mm F1.8, 55-250 STM.

ritholtz

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Re: Tracking with SL2 and suggestions to shoot Karate games.
« Reply #24 on: March 20, 2018, 05:20:53 PM »
Hi ritholtz.
I should have added that Angela has the 100D (SL1) which she has used for motor racing and even with relatively slow (55-250 non STM) moving lenses had reasonable success tracking approaching cars so I would hope that the SL2 would be somewhat better if paired with lenses that can move focus more quickly. I know karate has a very different movement profile from motor racing.  :)
Angela didn’t get to try her new 55-250 STM Lens this year as it was snowing at the races and she preferred not to risk ruining the “relatively speaking non weather sealed” gear with water damage!
Snow flakes turn in to rather large drops of water when they melt! :o :)

Cheers, Graham.

Hi ritholtz.
To be fair you ask how to use the gear you have to the best effect, you get a suggestion and query it, would it have been more relevant to suggest you get a 7DII or 1DxII instead? No as that won’t help you track with an SL2 whereas using live view might!

Cheers, Graham.

DPR suggested to use live view during servo tracking. Then what is the point of buying DSLR. Servo tracking suppose to be strengths of DSLR. If we are going to use live view with DSLR, I should be buying one of M.
Thanks Graham. I bought 80d and downgraded to SL2. Size was one of the reason. 80d felt too big for me.
Thanks for the information Graham.
70D, 10-18mm, 17-50mm F2.8, 85mm F1.8, 55-250 STM.

ritholtz

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Re: Tracking with SL2 and suggestions to shoot Karate games.
« Reply #25 on: March 20, 2018, 05:25:38 PM »
I have not used the SL2 but I have a 6D, and the AF systems seems to have some similarities, ie the peripheral AF points are line sensors, with only the centre point being cross-type (and the 6D gets an extra vertical line sensor with f/2.8 and wider aperture lenses).

If I was using my 6D, I would largely agree with what lago has said. I doubt you would have much luck with the peripheral AF points. However I would add:

make sure you pre-focus - you don't want the lens to have to change focus by much when you want to take a shot. In fact, consider taking some shots where you pre-focus on a point and wait for the action to come to that point (ie manual focus)

when you are using AF, start the AF system before you are ready to take the shot, ie give the AF system time to start tracking your subject (remembering that if you only have the centre AF point active, you will need to keep it over your subject) for a few moments before you take the shot

if you are using a lens with IS/OS, turn it off or else make sure it is active well before you are ready to the take the shot so the system has time to sort itself out (although a recent article has suggested that with Sigma's OS, you need to do that even if you have OS off)

don't rule out using your 50 f/1.8. Shooting it at f/2 will give you an extra stop over either of your Sigma lenses, and help you keep your ISO down a bit.  That assumes 50mm will get you close enough for decent photos (but remember you can crop a bit later). It also assumes you won't be so close that 50mm at f/2 will give you such a shallow DOF that you don't have much chance to get action shots in focus, although even then I would try at least a few shots like that given it sounds like you will be shooting in pretty dim light and you need a fast shutter time.

I wonder whether 1/200th will be fast enough to stop the action, but I don't have experience with martial arts specifically so I'm happy to defer to lago on that.

I see other people have suggested using liveview. As I said I don't have any experience with the SL2 so I cannot comment on that. It may be it is the way to go. Otherwise, though, I'd go with the above approach.
I am going to try with tracking using one AF point (mostly center as it is double cross type). Tracking with all AF points is kinda like a block box. Some times it shows me all AF points lit and some times none. Not sure what is the reason for this. Fallowing are the few pics i took with all focus points active (Auto),



[url=https://flic.kr/p/22AoxVy]

[url=https://flic.kr/p/FG45pF]


Camera didn't focus on to any subject. May be it is a lens. I have placed order for 50mm STM lens to test with Canon lens. May be I will try with 55-250mm next time for tracking outside. As I was pushing aperture to wide open, there is a problem with small dof as well.
« Last Edit: March 20, 2018, 05:29:05 PM by ritholtz »
70D, 10-18mm, 17-50mm F2.8, 85mm F1.8, 55-250 STM.

ritholtz

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Re: Tracking with SL2 and suggestions to shoot Karate games.
« Reply #26 on: March 23, 2018, 11:39:34 PM »
I bought 50mm STM lens recently as a backup. I can use 50mm at f/2 and also better tracking.  I am not sure about Sigma 105mm os macro lens focusing. It is too big for SL2. I kept this lens with the hope of getting FF camera some day. 

I am going to do few more tracking practice with just using shutter button (without bbf). I need to get hang of releasing shutter button to half position instead of completely. That should give me all bbf functionality i am looking for. 

Do you think, it is better to find used 85mm or 100mm usm prime lens. May be I can try selling big sigma 105mm macro  lens and get one of these primes.

Thanks
70D, 10-18mm, 17-50mm F2.8, 85mm F1.8, 55-250 STM.

Valvebounce

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Re: Tracking with SL2 and suggestions to shoot Karate games.
« Reply #27 on: March 24, 2018, 06:51:58 AM »
Hi ritholtz.
I don’t know if you have tried it and didn’t like it or never tried it don’t get it, but for me the best thing about BBF is not having to hover my index finger half pressed, just hold the thumb button down to its on position and use the index finger to fully depress the shutter, I find holding the shutter half way leads to more fatigue than holding the BBF button down, it also leads to more accidental shots as fatigue increases.
The flip side is the 100D is not the most ergonomic camera we have for using BBF! It is small and light! :)

Cheers, Graham.

I bought 50mm STM lens recently as a backup. I can use 50mm at f/2 and also better tracking.  I am not sure about Sigma 105mm os macro lens focusing. It is too big for SL2. I kept this lens with the hope of getting FF camera some day. 

I am going to do few more tracking practice with just using shutter button (without bbf). I need to get hang of releasing shutter button to half position instead of completely. That should give me all bbf functionality i am looking for. 

Do you think, it is better to find used 85mm or 100mm usm prime lens. May be I can try selling big sigma 105mm macro  lens and get one of these primes.

Thanks
7DII+Grip, 1DsIII, 7D+Grip, 40D+Grip, EF 24-105 f4L EF-S 17-85, EF-S 10-22, EF 70-200 f2.8 L IS II, EF 1.4xIII, 2xIII, EF 100-400 f/4.5-5.6l IS II, Σ17-70 f2.8-4 C, EF 50mm f1.8, YN600EX-RT, YN-E3-RT, Filters, Remotes, Macro tubes, Tripods, heads etc!

1DsIII, 20D, 24-105, 17-85, Nifty 50 pre owned

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Re: Tracking with SL2 and suggestions to shoot Karate games.
« Reply #27 on: March 24, 2018, 06:51:58 AM »

jd7

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Re: Tracking with SL2 and suggestions to shoot Karate games.
« Reply #28 on: March 24, 2018, 07:09:12 AM »
Camera didn't focus on to any subject. May be it is a lens. I have placed order for 50mm STM lens to test with Canon lens. May be I will try with 55-250mm next time for tracking outside. As I was pushing aperture to wide open, there is a problem with small dof as well.

It does look like the camera completely lost the target there. Cameras with more AF points - and better AF points (eg cross type) are going to do a better job of tracking, I'm afraid.  That said, where was your focus when you started tracking at the start of the sequence you took? Was the first shot you included in your post the first shot in the sequence? Had you started tracking before you took the first shot? 

You probably know already, but just in case, note that with the SL2 (and a number of other cameras, including the 6D), if you are using servo mode you either pick a single AF point (so you have continuous focus on whatever is under that AF point - fine if you can keep your AF point over the target), or you have all AF points active (so the camera can track your subject around the frame) but then you must start with your target under the centre AF point.  Cameras with more advanced AF systems allow you start tracking from other points, but I don't believe that's possible on the SL2.
« Last Edit: March 24, 2018, 07:22:13 AM by jd7 »
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jd7

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Re: Tracking with SL2 and suggestions to shoot Karate games.
« Reply #29 on: March 24, 2018, 07:13:45 AM »
Hi ritholtz.
I don’t know if you have tried it and didn’t like it or never tried it don’t get it, but for me the best thing about BBF is not having to hover my index finger half pressed, just hold the thumb button down to its on position and use the index finger to fully depress the shutter,

+1.  It took a little bit of getting used to, but I'm definitely a fan of BBF now.  I will occasionally switch back to having AF linked to the shutter button for particular situations, but 99% of the time I use BBF.
6DII | 24-70 4L IS | 70-200 2.8L IS II | Sigma 35 1.4 Art | Sigma 50 1.4 Art | Sigma 85 1.4 EX | 1.4x mk II

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Re: Tracking with SL2 and suggestions to shoot Karate games.
« Reply #29 on: March 24, 2018, 07:13:45 AM »