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Author Topic: Camera Body Breakdown [CR1]  (Read 16387 times)

Sinsear

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Re: Camera Body Breakdown [CR1]
« Reply #30 on: December 08, 2010, 04:42:18 PM »
It doesn't look like Canon is planning on introducing anything to compete with the Nikon D3s at low light levels. I just took some pictures of Yuletide reenactors at a local historical village/museum, in a room lit with 3 candles, that's it, 3 frigging candles. A typical exposure was 1/15 sec and f/1.4 at ISO3200. Image quality as good as the D3s at ISO51200 would get me to 1/60 sec and f/2.8 and allow me to use my 24-70 and 17-35 zoom lenses.

Is anybody at Canon listening?
I don't think Canon is, but I certainly am.

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Re: Camera Body Breakdown [CR1]
« Reply #30 on: December 08, 2010, 04:42:18 PM »

KyleSTL

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Re: Camera Body Breakdown [CR1]
« Reply #31 on: December 08, 2010, 05:12:35 PM »
scalesusa, you say that "Right now, Nikon has not uped the ante"

This can only mean you are not working with these two side by side, Nikon has left the EOS 1Ds MkIII for dead with the D3s. I can promise you Nikon are blowing Canon away right now. The quality, the low light ability, the incredible ability to run tethered shooting bursts of 30+ frames non stop with Capture One, and the amazingly sharp glass.

The difference is as great as the one Canon made with the original EOS 1 which got me, and everyone else, to sell my slow and awkward F4 and make the switch to Canon.

The appaling mess of the G12, which I hate, after the G10, which i loved, has really put me on alert that Canon may well have lost the plot, and not be listening to people who work with the things everyday.
To be fair, though, the 1Ds Mark III vs. D3s is one fight between the two that Nikon is clearly dominating by a wide margin. 

Here is my take on the other matchups:
draw D3000 and Rebel XS (1000D)
D3100 over T1i (500D)
T2i (550D) over D90
draw D7000 and 60D (different approaches, but worthy competitors)
7D over D300s
D700 over 5D Mark II (although very close, and very different approaches)
D3s over 1D Mark IV (price competitors)
D3s over 1Ds Mark III (form-factor competitors, but again very different)
1Ds Mark III over D3x (slightly)

So [in my opinion] Nikon has a 4-3-2 lead over Canon.  But at the top, I would give Nikon the advantage.  I will follow up my analysis stating I haven't used the vast majority of the current cameras, but it my research online regarding general reviews and overall image quality this is how I see the shaking out.
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ptk

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Re: Camera Body Breakdown [CR1]
« Reply #32 on: December 08, 2010, 06:49:28 PM »
Admin, if you have some free time (and rumors are slow like they are now) could you put together a list of quotes from the "THERE WILL BE NO 60D!" people?  I think it'd be very amusing as well as relevant since we're now seeing some people claiming the merging of the 1D and 1Ds lines as well as other things.

niko

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Re: Camera Body Breakdown [CR1]
« Reply #33 on: December 08, 2010, 07:57:03 PM »
scalesusa, you say that "Right now, Nikon has not uped the ante"

This can only mean you are not working with these two side by side, Nikon has left the EOS 1Ds MkIII for dead with the D3s. I can promise you Nikon are blowing Canon away right now. The quality, the low light ability, the incredible ability to run tethered shooting bursts of 30+ frames non stop with Capture One, and the amazingly sharp glass.

The difference is as great as the one Canon made with the original EOS 1 which got me, and everyone else, to sell my slow and awkward F4 and make the switch to Canon.

The appaling mess of the G12, which I hate, after the G10, which i loved, has really put me on alert that Canon may well have lost the plot, and not be listening to people who work with the things everyday.
To be fair, though, the 1Ds Mark III vs. D3s is one fight between the two that Nikon is clearly dominating by a wide margin. 

Here is my take on the other matchups:
draw D3000 and Rebel XS (1000D)
D3100 over T1i (500D)
T2i (550D) over D90
draw D7000 and 60D (different approaches, but worthy competitors)
7D over D300s
D700 over 5D Mark II (although very close, and very different approaches)
D3s over 1D Mark IV (price competitors)
D3s over 1Ds Mark III (form-factor competitors, but again very different)
1Ds Mark III over D3x (slightly)

So [in my opinion] Nikon has a 4-3-2 lead over Canon.  But at the top, I would give Nikon the advantage.  I will follow up my analysis stating I haven't used the vast majority of the current cameras, but it my research online regarding general reviews and overall image quality this is how I see the shaking out.

Nikon clearly has the edge in terms of low light performance currently, however the 1Ds III was never meant to compete with a D3s as that camera came out much later.

Judging by the rumors around the 5d II announcement, I believe that Canon had the technology to release a camera with excellent AF and ISO performance based on the 19 point AF and a lower MP sensor, however Canon underestimated the push by Nikon to gain market share and chose to a different route instead.  I expect Canon to address the shortcomings (both real or perceived) in the next gen cameras.

c.d.embrey

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Re: Camera Body Breakdown [CR1]
« Reply #34 on: December 09, 2010, 10:38:58 AM »
I know you guys will hate me saying this, but for the 7th job in a row I'm renting the Nikon D3s because it is just so much nicer on skin, especially at low light, than my old 1Ds Mklll.  I also am blown away by how much crisper their 24-70 zoom is. I thought they'd never equal Canon again, but right now they really have stolen a march on Canon.

If Canon don't get their act together soon, and at least let us know when the 1Ds MklV is coming I'm jumping ship, and going back to Nikon altogether, (after exactly 20 years!) because a year of renting just isn't worth doing waiting and hoping Canon will introduce a camera that may never appear!

mac, I don't think anyone can fault you with wanting to go back to nikon, especially given that you're actually making a living off of your equipment.  I'm intrigued that you see such a huge difference between the canon and nikon systems in how they render skin tone, but I've heard it from others ... guess something I'm not seeing in the files.

really great work!  the shot of mila kunis you have on your page really is, as you said, stunning (although I know you were talking about the actress rather than the photo)

If I use it regularly I own it. If I use it occasionally I rent it. That just makes good economic sense.

It sounds like you should have bought that Nikon D3s a long time ago.

BTW this isn't Canon bashing ... it's just admitting that, for some people, Nikon has regained the lead in Pro Cameras and Lenses.

Macadameane

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Re: Camera Body Breakdown [CR1]
« Reply #35 on: December 09, 2010, 10:57:34 AM »
I know this is OT, but shouldn't this thread be in "EOS Bodies" ?

infrahead

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Re: Camera Body Breakdown [CR1]
« Reply #36 on: December 09, 2010, 04:02:06 PM »
Concerning "PowerShot The usual upgrades can be expected to start in late January. I’ve received nothing out of the ordinary."
I'm thinking of buying the Powershot S95. Should I hold off for a while?

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Re: Camera Body Breakdown [CR1]
« Reply #36 on: December 09, 2010, 04:02:06 PM »

Etienne

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Re: Camera Body Breakdown [CR1]
« Reply #37 on: December 09, 2010, 04:49:46 PM »
I hope Canon steps up their game with the 5DIII in 2011. They need an all-round convincing FF in a small body with top-notch video features.  If it wasn't for my interest in video I would have bought the D700 over my 5DII.

I think Canon dropped the ball with the 60D. I'm looking for a second body that can do video, but even with my canon L lenses I'm inclined to buy a Panasonic GH2, a pancake and the 7-14mm f4. It looks like Panasonic has set the standard for video in compact cameras now with the GH2. Full reviews will tell the whole story, but initial looks are pretty convincing so far, and in a much smaller package. Canon should have improved the video AF, and included full res hdmi out on record with the 60D. Now the GH2 is a much more attractive option, unless you need that body primarily for stills.

If the 5DIII doesn't beat Nikon's D700 replacement at least in Photography (low light, AF, build quality, responsiveness), I'll probably jump ship to Nikon, and use the Panasonic for video.

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Re: Camera Body Breakdown [CR1]
« Reply #38 on: December 09, 2010, 06:57:17 PM »
Concerning "PowerShot The usual upgrades can be expected to start in late January. I’ve received nothing out of the ordinary."
I'm thinking of buying the Powershot S95. Should I hold off for a while?

The S95 just came out.  There might be another next fall.  I did not like my S90 due to its small buttons, but that works well for many.

infrahead

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Re: Camera Body Breakdown [CR1]
« Reply #39 on: December 10, 2010, 02:31:52 AM »
Concerning "PowerShot The usual upgrades can be expected to start in late January. I’ve received nothing out of the ordinary."
I'm thinking of buying the Powershot S95. Should I hold off for a while?

The S95 just came out.  There might be another next fall.  I did not like my S90 due to its small buttons, but that works well for many.

Thanks!

I actually bought the panny LX5, but returned it 'cause it wasn't really pocketable = it won't fit easily in a jeans/shirt pocket. Otherwise I liked it, and it's in many ways a superior camera compared to the S95.
But now I'm going for the S95 since I'll be able to have it with me everywhere.

torger

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Re: Camera Body Breakdown [CR1]
« Reply #40 on: December 10, 2010, 04:32:48 AM »
Canon is receiving quite a lot of bashing for not having the same low light performance as Nikon, and not so much appreciation for having higher resolution.

If you're a landscape photographer or studio photographer it seems to me that low ISO performance is key, and then resolution is an important factor. Some use medium format just for the resolution.

For my personal photo style, I'd rather go for higher resolution at low ISO and slightly worse high ISO performance. Needing large DOF and therefore often working around f/8 - f/11 which makes resolution generally diffraction limited I'd still could use as much as ~50 megapixels on a full frame sensor before additional pixels does not give significant value.

The exceptionally low noise at ISO100 in the sensor of Nikon's new D7000 shows that low noise (at low ISO) is indeed possible with small pixels.

However, if you need to shoot in non-ideal lighting conditions with short shutter speeds, then good high ISO performance is necessary of course. I don't really think that these conflicting goals can be combined into a single camera body today. Either you optimize for high res at low ISO, or low noise at high ISO. It's unfortunate that 35mm camera bodies are not modular as larger formats, then you could have two digital backs, one for high res and one for high ISO (and you could actually upgrade a body instead of having to buy yet a new magnesium alloy body).

Anyway, for me personally, I'm not particularly worried about the rumors of 5Dmk3 having as much as 32 megapixels, rather the opposite, it seems quite attractive to me. Closing in on medium format.

I also think the view on resolution will change in the coming years. Current resolution guidelines is based on more or less obsolete film and print standards. DOF calculators use acceptable resolution as 30 microns - meaning 1 megapixel. Saying that is a sharp image is like saying 8 bit audio is clear. In some circumstances yes it is true. However, not too many years from now we'll probably have monitors with 9000x6000 pixels rather than 1920x1200.
« Last Edit: December 10, 2010, 04:41:14 AM by torger »

dilbert

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Re: Camera Body Breakdown [CR1]
« Reply #41 on: December 10, 2010, 06:35:37 AM »
Concerning "PowerShot The usual upgrades can be expected to start in late January. I’ve received nothing out of the ordinary."
I'm thinking of buying the Powershot S95. Should I hold off for a while?

The S95 just came out.  There might be another next fall.  I did not like my S90 due to its small buttons, but that works well for many.

Thanks!

I actually bought the panny LX5, but returned it 'cause it wasn't really pocketable = it won't fit easily in a jeans/shirt pocket. Otherwise I liked it, and it's in many ways a superior camera compared to the S95.
But now I'm going for the S95 since I'll be able to have it with me everywhere.

Yup, I've bought one (S95) too and it now lives in my jacket pocket.

It's the perfect small camera.

neuroanatomist

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Re: Camera Body Breakdown [CR1]
« Reply #42 on: December 10, 2010, 07:26:08 AM »
Yup, I've bought one (S95) too and it now lives in my jacket pocket.

It's the perfect small camera.

Seconded (or is that thirded?).  I really like my S95, and have taken great pictures with it in situations where bringing one of my dSLR bodies and a bag full of lenses isn't feasible.  I'm sure the G12 is also a nice camera, but the advantage of the S95 is it's small size.  The advantage of both those P&S cameras over the many other models available is the larger sensor, which means better IQ and lower noise, and the fact that they shoot RAW.
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Re: Camera Body Breakdown [CR1]
« Reply #42 on: December 10, 2010, 07:26:08 AM »

Catastrophile

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Re: Camera Body Breakdown [CR1]
« Reply #43 on: December 10, 2010, 03:43:39 PM »
about mirrorless + 600D and/or 2000D:

Canon has said that the point of mirrorless cameras is not whether or not you have a mirror but that people want the image quality of a large sensor camera in a lighter package than conventional entry-level DSLR's and that canon think they can design lighter/smaller cameras without having to remove the mirror. Probably if this is coming soon, it may come in the 600D (or 2000D), with the 60D being considerably lighter than previous x0D, the Rebel line can easily and is likel to get lighter too, I won't be surprised to see this achieved by something similar to Sony's SLT design, specially that the Canon spokesman when he talked about a lighter design w the mirror, said something like (we have done it before and we can do it now), i guess he meant they did pellicle mirror before and they can do it again. I can't think of any other way to make the rebels any more compact than what they already are, SLT with EVF and the mirror fixed means that you remove a lot of bulk and weight from the traditional SLR design.

Ivar

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Re: Camera Body Breakdown [CR1]
« Reply #44 on: December 13, 2010, 03:37:27 PM »
Canon is receiving quite a lot of bashing for not having the same low light performance as Nikon, and not so much appreciation for having higher resolution.

a) In the first place it was the Canon's idea about such a product differentiation, no wonder people expect a sports camera to perform exceptionally well at high ISOs.
b) forget seeing differences in print 16MP vs 12MP. However, what makes the difference here is that those 16MP are more concentrated (denser) meaning better magnifications in the end.

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Re: Camera Body Breakdown [CR1]
« Reply #44 on: December 13, 2010, 03:37:27 PM »