July 22, 2018, 02:40:45 PM

Author Topic: Could FF mirrorless tempt 'never-mirrorless' FF SLR folks with features?  (Read 3941 times)

Zeidora

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If the EVF becomes indistinguishable from an OVF. There are two issues: resolution and dynamic range. The human eye is astoundingly good at resolving detail (allegedly the equivalent of 576 megapixels: https://futurism.com/what-is-the-resolution-of-the-human-eye/) and dynamic range is on the order of 20 f-stops or 1M:1 (depends on conditions).
The first may be more limited by resolving power of lenses, so in the 50-100 MP range. The latter is not. It may happen, but not any time soon. I'd give it 10-20 years.

Until then, my other camera is a 4x5" view camera, with loupe on ground glass.
5D2 full spectrum, 5DsR, a bunch of Zeiss (some other) primes, for documentary natural history, macro, and micro.

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sdsr

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Only IBIS and very accurate focus peaking would tempt me and only because I have 36 legacy lenses with no AF or IS.

Like Steve, I much prefer an optical viewfinder. Hate EVF.

It's not just focus peaking, but focus peaking combined with x10-x15 magnification that makes mf so much easier via an EVF; there's no way you can do that through an optical viewfinder (is there?).  The more mf you do, the more you might come to overcome your hatred of EVFs.  (It's not only useful for mf - on an a7rIII (and perhaps other models - I don't know) you can, in single spot AF mode, magnify the focus point x10 or x15 to make sure that precisely what you want is in focus, which is especially useful with shallow focus on subjects that aren't moving much or at all.)

RGF

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I'll go mirrorless if the camera works for wildlife photography.

Great EVF, works with my Canon glass, battery life is similar to 1Dx M2, feels good in my hands (not too small) - needs to work  in both portrait and landscape modes, menu and buttons work well for photographers (especially Canon shooters).

In other words, if the camera works well and the price point is attractive, I will serious consider it

scyrene

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If a mirrorless camera worked essentially the same as my DSLR then I wouldn't have a problem getting one when I next upgrade. I suppose the key feature would be body style - I use big lenses so I need a body that balances, so not much smaller than a 5-series. Otherwise, as others have said, an EVF as responsive as an OVF, good battery life, and EF compatibility would be important.
Current equipment: 5Ds, 5D mark III, 50D, 24-105L, MP-E, 100L macro, 500L IS II; 1.4xIII + 2x III extenders; 600EX-RT.
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Mt Spokane Photography

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The Rumored Mirrorless similar to a 5D MK IV would not tempt me, because I can put my 5D MK IV into live view and use it that way.  It would be nice if it retained native use of EF lenses, but I'm doubting that.

There needs to be a across the board improvement to interest me.

Tugela

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For those who have no interest in mirrorless, what would happen if any of the following items/features landed in the first FF mirrorless body?

  • IBIS
  • Tilty-flippy touch screen (in a higher than 6D2 feature set)
  • A new variant of the 5DS sensor with on-chip ADC (i.e. something resembling the 5DS2 sensor)
  • +3 fps over your current FF SLR (presume fully working AF throughout)
  • Thin mount design affords enough space to rear-filter EF lenses that are not front-filterable (possibly through the EF adaptor)
  • Eye AF
  • Ultra-light body design (more than just from mirror removal and body size changes: say, with carbon fiber instead of metal)
  • AF points that almost completely fill the viewfinder -- no more central core of AF points that SLR designs typically have

For those with no interest in mirrorless, Is there a killer app that will change your mind?  Is anything above so attractive to you that if mirrorless was the only way to get it, you'd do it?

In other words, if a critical thing you are interested in drops in the new FF mirrorless rig, do you bite the bullet and get the FF mirrorless rig, or just wait/hope that particular tech/feature makes it into your preferred SLR slot?

(Again, I'm specifically asking the 'never-mirrorless' camp of FF shooters.  If you are interested in getting an FF mirrorless rig, you are not who I am looking for with this, thx.)

- A

Once Canon and Nikon start making MILCs on their high end product line, they will probably replace DSLRs very rapidly despite what any hardcore users might think. All of the future development dollars will go to MILCs. DSLRs might continue to be made for a while, but expect few upgrades going forward since the market will not be large enough to make it worthwhile.

johnf3f

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Not sure how you get an OVF on a mirrorless
rangefinder styling....

But that won't show me the framing I am getting unless it instantly adjusts to focal length the lens I am using and also instantly adjusts for parallax. Also it does not show me the through the lens view so that I can see if it is in focus.

Not much use, but rangefinders do look nice.
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ahsanford

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Once Canon and Nikon start making MILCs on their high end product line, they will probably replace DSLRs very rapidly despite what any hardcore users might think. All of the future development dollars will go to MILCs. DSLRs might continue to be made for a while, but expect few upgrades going forward since the market will not be large enough to make it worthwhile.

On replacing SLRs with mirrorless, yes, it's a certainty but the question is what product lines and when.  I think it will start at the bottom and climb it's way up -- both for (what we presume will be) production cost X volume opportunities, but also b/c the consumer market at large doesn't seem to care as much about OVF vs. EVF and what not.  Higher end crop and FF SLRs will be around quite some time, though.

As far as all R&D dollars quickly moving to mirrorless, that's going to be a company specific move:

  • Sony:  Soon / any time they want.  SLT A-mount stuff isn't exactly setting the world on fire.  All the momentum is with mirrorless for them.

  • Nikon:  They're screwed.  SLRs keep the lights on for them so they can't abandon that market quickly, but a lack of a serious mirrorless platform is a huge future threat.  I see them painfully juggling supporting SLR and mirrorless product lines over time.

  • Canon:  No one knows when they might migrate whole product lines to mirrorless or just obsolete certain SLR lines.  They are uniquely big enough and profitable enough to keep everything afloat a long time.  So my guess is we'll see a Mirrorless Rebel drop in alongside a traditional mirrored Rebel in ~ 5 years time, and if it fares well commercially, reliability-wise, etc. the next Rebel won't have a mirror at all.  But 5-series, 1-series, etc. will keep their mirrors for a much longer period of time.

- A

Mt Spokane Photography

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  • Canon:  No one knows when they might migrate whole product lines to mirrorless or just obsolete certain SLR lines.  They are uniquely big enough and profitable enough to keep everything afloat a long time.  So my guess is we'll see a Mirrorless Rebel drop in alongside a traditional mirrored Rebel in ~ 5 years time, and if it fares well commercially, reliability-wise, etc. the next Rebel won't have a mirror at all.  But 5-series, 1-series, etc. will keep their mirrors for a much longer period of time.
- A
The Canon M6 and M5's are already basically mirrorless Rebels, its a professional full frame thats next,.  Apparently we will see it before the end of the year.
Sales will determine the future.  Expect higher prices for mirrorless, more $$$ for less! 

Talys

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My real issue is that I don't want  to make compromises inautofocus raw speed and accuracy especially with less light (meaning a combination of extenders, f stop and available light.

If i can get simple center point af at f8-11 in a room lit with a 60w bulb with and without af illuminator (a real flash one, not the Sony garbage), I will probably be pretty happy.


At f5.6-f8, if I can see it through the lens, I would like instant, hunt free jitter free autofocus.

Is that totally unreasonable as an ask from a ff milc?

What I do not care about very much is af tracking stuff and much intelligent af other than potentially eye af. But frankly, I would even give that up, preferring af point selection if I had to map a second button to engage.  But give me good low light af and I could probably be a happy convert.

Mt Spokane Photography

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My real issue is that I don't want  to make compromises inautofocus raw speed and accuracy especially with less light (meaning a combination of extenders, f stop and available light.

If i can get simple center point af at f8-11 in a room lit with a 60w bulb with and without af illuminator (a real flash one, not the Sony garbage), I will probably be pretty happy.


At f5.6-f8, if I can see it through the lens, I would like instant, hunt free jitter free autofocus.

Is that totally unreasonable as an ask from a ff milc?

What I do not care about very much is af tracking stuff and much intelligent af other than potentially eye af. But frankly, I would even give that up, preferring af point selection if I had to map a second button to engage.  But give me good low light af and I could probably be a happy convert.
As you may know, AF in low light is possible with cameras in live view, f/11 is no issue.  AF is also more accurate with DPAF.  There are more AF points that are easily selectable either by joystick or touch screen, which is wonderful for me.

The things that need to be addressed are a viewfinder, the size of the AF points, the delay when image review is turned on, minor issues like that.

If you have not used a recent camera with DPAF in live view, many of your points have been accomplished years ago.  Mirrorless is going to be basically live view with a EVF and hopefully a couple of issues fixed, like the long wait between images when review is turned on.

Kit.

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Once Canon and Nikon start making MILCs on their high end product line,
Canon started in January 2012 with EOS C300.

they will probably replace DSLRs very rapidly despite what any hardcore users might think.
"Very rapidly" means different things for a Canon customer and for a Sony customer, for example.

All of the future development dollars will go to MILCs.
Mirrorbox is a mature technology that doesn't require a lot of development dollars. Hybrid OVF/EVF viewfinder is probably the only technology that still benefits from further development.

A mirrorbox is not particularly cheap, but as a percentage of the cost of the 1D/5D series it's not that expensive either.

6D-like bodies may lose mirrors quite soon.

Mt Spokane Photography

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A mirrorbox is not particularly cheap, but as a percentage of the cost of the 1D/5D series it's not that expensive either.

6D-like bodies may lose mirrors quite soon.
When you consider the cost of replacing / servicing mirror boxes, the cost goes up, both to Canon and the consumer.  Add in a pentaprism, AF sensor, exposure sensor,  and its even more expensive.  A EVF, however, may cost as much to implement.  I don't know the current reliability, but it should be high.

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3kramd5

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A EVF, however, may cost as much to implement.

I doubt EVF costs as much to implement. They are easily competed, whereas almost certainly a camera company has to design the reflex assembly, or pay for it to be designed.

EVF may require more sophisticated electronics to drive at a high framerate, but they benefit from overall industry progress in those regards.

wsmith96

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Sure, I would consider changing but my decision factor would be on the amount of lens replacement I would have to do should there be a new mount.
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