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Author Topic: Who thinks this is an ANTI-CLIMATIC product? As in, the 5DIII  (Read 15619 times)

jrista

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Re: Who thinks this is an ANTI-CLIMATIC product? As in, the 5DIII
« Reply #75 on: March 06, 2012, 01:38:18 AM »
For those of you whom don't beleive the camera manufacturers are ripping us off. Here is a price list for a 16 bit 80MSPS ADC. Talk about milking the technology.

http://www.analog.com/en/analog-to-digital-converters/ad-converters/ist/191/pst.html

Well, if we use $50 as a base, and assume Canon has one ADC per read channel from the sensor (which I think would be essential to achieve 12fps@18mp)...that would be 16 ADC's at $50 each for a total of $800 (for 1D X), or 8 @ $50 for a total of $400 (for the 5D III). Thats assuming the ADC's are independent components. In the past, I believe they have been an integrated part of their DIGIC processors, and its entirely possible Canon has partly taken the approach Sony did, and are now embedding the ADC right on the sensor itself. Integrating the ADC component with any other component, and doing so while keeping electronic noise low, while still supporting the very high readout rates for 10-12 fps...is expensive.

I don't think camera manufacturers are ripping us off with their ADC's.

You missed the part where the price is $50.... for each PACK of 1000    ;D
(i.e. 5 cents each)

Oy, I did miss that. Oops. ;D Well, the other points still remain true, its not cheap to produce complex IC's like cmos sensors and DIGIC processors. The real cost isn't the ADC anyway, its far more complex devices like the metering or AF system and large IC's like the sensor.

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Re: Who thinks this is an ANTI-CLIMATIC product? As in, the 5DIII
« Reply #75 on: March 06, 2012, 01:38:18 AM »

jordanbstead

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Re: Who thinks this is an ANTI-CLIMATIC product? As in, the 5DIII
« Reply #76 on: March 06, 2012, 02:18:16 AM »
One man's trash is another man's treasure.  I think someone would be insane NOT to be blown away by this piece of equipment.  It improves on the Mark II in every single way (save for the one thing I don't need or want: more MP). 

sanj

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Re: Who thinks this is an ANTI-CLIMATIC product? As in, the 5DIII
« Reply #77 on: March 06, 2012, 02:22:12 AM »
I already have 5dII. I wanted more MP (more than D3X at 24MP), much better ISO performance, and better AF.

Why did Canon play this so foolishly? I am invested in Canon somewhat, and don't care about this new announcement. What a monumental letdown. I don't know how any current 5d owner could get very excited about this "ground-breaking" new DSLR.

I would rather have the 1dX. Even at over $3k more, you will have similar IQ at low ISO. I can't believe the resolution went up by 1 measly MEGAPIXEL!!!!!

I am happy about the 'almost' best autofocus but agree about the rest. Especially after seeing the Nikon 36mp sample images...  :-X

I hope I am wrong. This is like the ending to Saving Private Ryan. An old man crying is all I see.....

PeterJ

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Re: Who thinks this is an ANTI-CLIMATIC product? As in, the 5DIII
« Reply #78 on: March 06, 2012, 02:53:36 AM »
You missed the part where the price is $50.... for each PACK of 1000    ;D
(i.e. 5 cents each)
Oy, I did miss that. Oops. ;D Well, the other points still remain true, its not cheap to produce complex IC's like cmos sensors and DIGIC processors. The real cost isn't the ADC anyway, its far more complex devices like the metering or AF system and large IC's like the sensor.

Actually you didn't miss it, I've purchased parts from Analog and that's an indicative price per unit if you buy 1000 pieces, from the *  at the bottom of the page:

* The pricing listed here is provided only for budgetary purposes as recommended list price in U.S. Dollars in the United States ex factor (sic) per unit for the stated volume.

High resolution / speed ADC converters are quite expensive. They're gradually coming down in price, going back 20 years or so there were many parts north of $1000 per unit.

traveller

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Re: Who thinks this is an ANTI-CLIMATIC product? As in, the 5DIII
« Reply #79 on: March 06, 2012, 05:54:45 AM »
The 5D MkIII is a victory for all those who wanted a camera that was more capable of undertaking a wider range of photography assignments.  I will fully admit that backing off the megapixels will be a disappointment for photographers who specialise in landscapes.  There's no point arguing about the sensor right now, it is what it is; we will have to wait until production models of the 5D MkIII and the D800 are actually released to make an informed judgment upon their relative merits.  I've stated before that I don't think that this is Canon's exit from the megapixel race.  Far from it, I would expect a high megapixel camera some time in 2013; until then, if the new features of the 5D MkIII don't appeal, either buy/stick with the 5D MkII or change systems. 

I think that it would be some use to review where we have come from in a year or so (from a totally personal viewpoint  :) ):

neuroanatomist
“People want a 1D X for the price of a 5DII...or a T3 if they could get it.  They hedge it back to sound reasonable - '5 fps is fine' or 'I'll even accept the now-outdated 1DsIII AF' or 'how about only 4,000 sq. ft. and one acre' but I think the rationale is the same.

And let me go on record as saying that I'm certainly not opposed to any of that! But nor do I think it's realistic, and I am prepared to pay the 1D X price for the 1D X features.  Now...where's my $400 24-70mm f/2.8 II kit lens to go with that 1D X?   ”


handsomerob
“Quote from: neuroanatomist
I think the 5DII produces wonderful images, and I use it much more often than my 7D.  But everytime I use the 7D, I'm struck by how much better the AF system is, and how much room for imprevement there is in the 5DII's AF.  Sadly, I firmly believe they Canon will intentionally hobble it to increase separation from the 1D X.  Frame rate and build won't be enough, especially if the 5DIII is a high MP camera.”


+1 that. Even though many of us expect to see 7D's AF in the 5DIII, Canon is unlikely to offer that. An all 9 cross-type AF as in the 60D seems more likely to be used in the 5DIII, or maybe a completely new AF system, something between 60D's and 7D's AF.”

neuroanatomist
“Quote from: dilbert on November 15, 2011, 07:16:02 AM
    I'd like to see the same technology used for the 1DX AF put into the 5D3 - but without cluttering the viewfinder with so many AF points. Just 9 of them that all work 100% all of the time. The 7D AF layout isn't necessary in the 5D series.

Many would, and will likely be disappointed.  For one thing, they'll likely use AF point spread as a differentiator.  After touting the area coverage on the 1D X (which, although better than the 1DsIII is slightly worse than the 1D IV from a practical standpoint, if not from a mathematical standpoint), I don't expect more spread than on the 5DII.”

Quote from: neuroanatomist on October 28, 2011, 07:03:15 PM
    “As Flake stated, people are interested in the 5DIII in part because it's been a while since the 5DII came out.  The assumption that a 5DII replacement will have '7D build, AF and speed' is unwarranted, because Canon will need to differentiate the 5DIII from the 1D X on features to justify the price difference of ~$4K (or they'll minimize the price gap and charge $4K for the 5DIII but I really don't see that happeneing).  So, people won't get their 'dream camera'.”


bornshooter
“Quote from: Ricku on September 05, 2011, 09:39:53 PM
“I sure hope the 5D3 comes before the 1DS IV.

And yes, the earthquake / tsunami is probably the main reason to why we haven't heard about anything about these cameras yet.”


i hope the 5d mk3 comes 1st too all i want from it is improved focussing  please bring it soon canon  ”


foobar
“Quote from: Rocky on April 18, 2011, 05:38:25 AM
   " 19 point AF system, 3 cross-type points"
    That is a few steps backward from the 7D. 7D is ALL 19 points cross.”


True, but I don't think the 7D is a good indicator for what the 5D3 will be. Sure, everyone (me included) wishes it to be basically a full-frame version of the 7D, but I don't think this is what Canon will do. The 5D has always been a bit on the low end in terms of features (but not the sensor, of course) - probably so it doesn't cannibalize 1-series sales too much.

Quote from: neuroanatomist on April 18, 2011, 06:26:42 AM
    “I hope this is BS.  If not, that's just, well...pathetic.   A 5D3 can have 9 or more AF points, but they all should be cross-type.  Only the center point on the 5DII is cross-type, and it's the only one that works well.  A 5DIII with 3 useful AF points?  Egad, I hope not...”


+1

The thing I like about the AF systems in the 40/50/60D and especially the 7D is that every AF-point is cross-type, so you can select focus points purely based on composition and not the technical limitations of the AF system.


Gcon
““Quote from: Canon 14-24 on January 23, 2011, 08:42:14 AM
    Quote from: Gcon on January 23, 2011, 08:08:39 AM
        “All I want in a 5DIII is the same as 5DII but with pro-level weather sealing and better AF.”


        Listen to me Canon - the 5D range brief is for a compact full frame body. It *needs* weather sealing and better AF. Keep the frame rates low and you won't monopolize the 1D/s range but you'll keep punters like me happy and stop me going to Nikon!”

    That's all the 1Ds mainly has going for it, how would that not monopolize those sales (1-2 fps difference ain't going to be the deal breaker)?  I've taken my 5D2 in rain and snow and it still has worked fine.  Since you use a 2 body set up, a 5D2 and 7D would be the ideal situation to get that AF and reach you need for wildlife.

Compared to 1DmkIV or 1DmkV - sports shooters will want the 'pro' level AF and some other pro features, and sports shooters will scoff at the FPS of a 5DII or 5DIII.

Compared to 1Ds mkIV - now that's where Canon is worried. Still, I think Canon will work in much high MP into this, as well as full pro AF, and pros will want the built in portrait grip. I think the 5DIII will go up a fair bit in price and they'll sell the 5DII for a while yet, so this won't monopolise the 1Ds mk IV sales.”


smithy

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Re: Who thinks this is an ANTI-CLIMATIC product? As in, the 5DIII
« Reply #80 on: March 06, 2012, 06:08:20 AM »
This is a great follow-up to the 5D Mark II in my opinion.  Increased FPS, better AF and improved weather sealing.  I'm hoping it's going to be the replacement for my trusty 40D (which will be relegated to backup camera).  I shoot triathlons a lot and 6 FPS is adequate for any of the three disciplines.
5D Mark III, 40D, 1V.  Bunch of strobes, lenses and other bits.
They're, their, there, it's, its, too, to, than, then, you're, your.  One lens, two lenses, the lens's aperture.

PhilDrinkwater

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Re: Who thinks this is an ANTI-CLIMATIC product? As in, the 5DIII
« Reply #81 on: March 06, 2012, 06:26:07 AM »
One man's trash is another man's treasure.  I think someone would be insane NOT to be blown away by this piece of equipment.  It improves on the Mark II in every single way (save for the one thing I don't need or want: more MP).
Exactly the same for me. I neither need or want more resolution for the work I do. All I'd be doing was recording more detail which I had to store that I'd be getting rid of again when the files were reduced in size.

However, I understand that some people either need or want more resolution. My personal view is that more want it than genuinely need it.

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Re: Who thinks this is an ANTI-CLIMATIC product? As in, the 5DIII
« Reply #81 on: March 06, 2012, 06:26:07 AM »

scottsdaleriots

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Re: Who thinks this is an ANTI-CLIMATIC product? As in, the 5DIII
« Reply #82 on: March 06, 2012, 06:40:41 AM »
I was so hyped up for the 5dmkiii but now it's just too expensive. Not to mention nikon have won the high MP war at least for the next 3-5 years I reckon.

XanuFoto

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Re: Who thinks this is an ANTI-CLIMATIC product? As in, the 5DIII
« Reply #83 on: March 06, 2012, 02:27:05 PM »
I was so hyped up for the 5dmkiii but now it's just too expensive. Not to mention nikon have won the high MP war at least for the next 3-5 years I reckon.
I thought NOKIA Phone won the high MP war.

jrista

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Re: Who thinks this is an ANTI-CLIMATIC product? As in, the 5DIII
« Reply #84 on: March 06, 2012, 06:45:10 PM »
I was so hyped up for the 5dmkiii but now it's just too expensive. Not to mention nikon have won the high MP war at least for the next 3-5 years I reckon.
I thought NOKIA Phone won the high MP war.

Depends. The Nokia Phone is a pixel-binned camera...you don't normally get the full 41mp, and when you do use it for "high resolution" shots, its somewhare in the vicinity of the D800 in terms of actual image resolution. When using it in binned mode, the images are about 3, 5, or 8mp (depending on binning mode), from what I've read. Pixel binning can indeed produce better quality photos, however you don't get a normal RAW image out of them (either JPEG or something akin to Canon m/sRAW), so you lose much of the flexibility RAW has when processing in post.

LetTheRightLensIn

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Re: Who thinks this is an ANTI-CLIMATIC product? As in, the 5DIII
« Reply #85 on: March 06, 2012, 09:16:12 PM »
For those of you whom don't beleive the camera manufacturers are ripping us off. Here is a price list for a 16 bit 80MSPS ADC. Talk about milking the technology.

http://www.analog.com/en/analog-to-digital-converters/ad-converters/ist/191/pst.html

Well, if we use $50 as a base, and assume Canon has one ADC per read channel from the sensor (which I think would be essential to achieve 12fps@18mp)...that would be 16 ADC's at $50 each for a total of $800 (for 1D X), or 8 @ $50 for a total of $400 (for the 5D III). Thats assuming the ADC's are independent components. In the past, I believe they have been an integrated part of their DIGIC processors, and its entirely possible Canon has partly taken the approach Sony did, and are now embedding the ADC right on the sensor itself. Integrating the ADC component with any other component, and doing so while keeping electronic noise low, while still supporting the very high readout rates for 10-12 fps...is expensive.

I don't think camera manufacturers are ripping us off with their ADC's.

You missed the part where the price is $50.... for each PACK of 1000    ;D
(i.e. 5 cents each)

Oy, I did miss that. Oops. ;D Well, the other points still remain true, its not cheap to produce complex IC's like cmos sensors and DIGIC processors. The real cost isn't the ADC anyway, its far more complex devices like the metering or AF system and large IC's like the sensor.

I bet the real cost, talking direct material cost only, is mostly in the shutter/mirror box and the sensor (if it is FF size). Perhaps a little in the VF if it is exactly 100%. Many of the chips inside DSLRs have also been used in the $40 P&S cameras.

LetTheRightLensIn

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Re: Who thinks this is an ANTI-CLIMATIC product? As in, the 5DIII
« Reply #86 on: March 06, 2012, 09:20:29 PM »
You missed the part where the price is $50.... for each PACK of 1000    ;D
(i.e. 5 cents each)
Oy, I did miss that. Oops. ;D Well, the other points still remain true, its not cheap to produce complex IC's like cmos sensors and DIGIC processors. The real cost isn't the ADC anyway, its far more complex devices like the metering or AF system and large IC's like the sensor.

Actually you didn't miss it, I've purchased parts from Analog and that's an indicative price per unit if you buy 1000 pieces, from the *  at the bottom of the page:

* The pricing listed here is provided only for budgetary purposes as recommended list price in U.S. Dollars in the United States ex factor (sic) per unit for the stated volume.

High resolution / speed ADC converters are quite expensive. They're gradually coming down in price, going back 20 years or so there were many parts north of $1000 per unit.

Oops I guess I missed it.  :-[    Pesky *.
Still, they don't use ones as fancy as that in the DSLRs.

jrista

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Re: Who thinks this is an ANTI-CLIMATIC product? As in, the 5DIII
« Reply #87 on: March 06, 2012, 09:25:36 PM »
For those of you whom don't beleive the camera manufacturers are ripping us off. Here is a price list for a 16 bit 80MSPS ADC. Talk about milking the technology.

http://www.analog.com/en/analog-to-digital-converters/ad-converters/ist/191/pst.html

Well, if we use $50 as a base, and assume Canon has one ADC per read channel from the sensor (which I think would be essential to achieve 12fps@18mp)...that would be 16 ADC's at $50 each for a total of $800 (for 1D X), or 8 @ $50 for a total of $400 (for the 5D III). Thats assuming the ADC's are independent components. In the past, I believe they have been an integrated part of their DIGIC processors, and its entirely possible Canon has partly taken the approach Sony did, and are now embedding the ADC right on the sensor itself. Integrating the ADC component with any other component, and doing so while keeping electronic noise low, while still supporting the very high readout rates for 10-12 fps...is expensive.

I don't think camera manufacturers are ripping us off with their ADC's.

You missed the part where the price is $50.... for each PACK of 1000    ;D
(i.e. 5 cents each)

Oy, I did miss that. Oops. ;D Well, the other points still remain true, its not cheap to produce complex IC's like cmos sensors and DIGIC processors. The real cost isn't the ADC anyway, its far more complex devices like the metering or AF system and large IC's like the sensor.

I bet the real cost, talking direct material cost only, is mostly in the shutter/mirror box and the sensor (if it is FF size). Perhaps a little in the VF if it is exactly 100%. Many of the chips inside DSLRs have also been used in the $40 P&S cameras.

Your forgetting the AF unit, which is fairly large, must be extremely precise in its design, is generally bound to the sensor size (from a point spread standpoint), and must be coupled with advanced control logic in the camera's processor. When you factor in the metering sensor into the AF system (as they usually are these days), that makes the whole system even more complex. There is all the software to manage the AF and metering system, make it customizable, hook all that customizability into the various body buttons....

I think expensive cameras are expensive simply because they are expensive. ;) I don't think you can really reduce the cost down to a single component or two as easily as we would all wish. They are complex automated systems of interconnected, synchronous parts that work at incredibly high speed. Its not just metering, or just AF, or just the sensor, or even just any couple of those parts...its the system as a whole, multiple discrete components operating in harmony to accurately track subjects and produce highly detailed, highly accurate, high resolution photos...N times a second.

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Re: Who thinks this is an ANTI-CLIMATIC product? As in, the 5DIII
« Reply #87 on: March 06, 2012, 09:25:36 PM »

LetTheRightLensIn

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Re: Who thinks this is an ANTI-CLIMATIC product? As in, the 5DIII
« Reply #88 on: March 06, 2012, 11:41:55 PM »
For those of you whom don't beleive the camera manufacturers are ripping us off. Here is a price list for a 16 bit 80MSPS ADC. Talk about milking the technology.

http://www.analog.com/en/analog-to-digital-converters/ad-converters/ist/191/pst.html

Well, if we use $50 as a base, and assume Canon has one ADC per read channel from the sensor (which I think would be essential to achieve 12fps@18mp)...that would be 16 ADC's at $50 each for a total of $800 (for 1D X), or 8 @ $50 for a total of $400 (for the 5D III). Thats assuming the ADC's are independent components. In the past, I believe they have been an integrated part of their DIGIC processors, and its entirely possible Canon has partly taken the approach Sony did, and are now embedding the ADC right on the sensor itself. Integrating the ADC component with any other component, and doing so while keeping electronic noise low, while still supporting the very high readout rates for 10-12 fps...is expensive.

I don't think camera manufacturers are ripping us off with their ADC's.

You missed the part where the price is $50.... for each PACK of 1000    ;D
(i.e. 5 cents each)

Oy, I did miss that. Oops. ;D Well, the other points still remain true, its not cheap to produce complex IC's like cmos sensors and DIGIC processors. The real cost isn't the ADC anyway, its far more complex devices like the metering or AF system and large IC's like the sensor.

I bet the real cost, talking direct material cost only, is mostly in the shutter/mirror box and the sensor (if it is FF size). Perhaps a little in the VF if it is exactly 100%. Many of the chips inside DSLRs have also been used in the $40 P&S cameras.

Your forgetting the AF unit, which is fairly large, must be extremely precise in its design, is generally bound to the sensor size (from a point spread standpoint), and must be coupled with advanced control logic in the camera's processor. When you factor in the metering sensor into the AF system (as they usually are these days), that makes the whole system even more complex. There is all the software to manage the AF and metering system, make it customizable, hook all that customizability into the various body buttons....

I think expensive cameras are expensive simply because they are expensive. ;) I don't think you can really reduce the cost down to a single component or two as easily as we would all wish. They are complex automated systems of interconnected, synchronous parts that work at incredibly high speed. Its not just metering, or just AF, or just the sensor, or even just any couple of those parts...its the system as a whole, multiple discrete components operating in harmony to accurately track subjects and produce highly detailed, highly accurate, high resolution photos...N times a second.

AF sensors are basically the same size whether the cam is APS-C,APS-H,DX,or FF.
Sure developing the logic behind AF must take lots of manpower, but we were talking strictly cost to manufacture part here not actual full down the line cost of a part. Most logic in these cams is actually pretty simple and trivial, but AF and especially AI Servo has got to be pretty tricky going indeed. I bet the first guy they said "OK so your next task is to come up with our first AF tracking system." got a lump in his throat. :D

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Re: Who thinks this is an ANTI-CLIMATIC product? As in, the 5DIII
« Reply #88 on: March 06, 2012, 11:41:55 PM »