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Author Topic: Canon Mirrorless [CR1]  (Read 19321 times)

RuneL

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Re: Canon Mirrorless [CR1]
« Reply #15 on: February 05, 2011, 05:45:38 AM »
I'd love it if canon built a compact M-style camera that took EF-lenses. Don't care about the price either. I need it. Problem of course is the rather hefty mount, dwarfing every other mount on the planet, more or less.

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Re: Canon Mirrorless [CR1]
« Reply #15 on: February 05, 2011, 05:45:38 AM »

DuLt

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Re: Canon Mirrorless [CR1]
« Reply #16 on: February 05, 2011, 07:56:15 AM »
Couldn't canon release a small evil fixed lens camera to serve as a compact substitute for s95 or the g12?

c.d.embrey

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Re: Canon Mirrorless [CR1]
« Reply #17 on: February 05, 2011, 01:47:18 PM »
Quote
they are not going to risk cannibalizing sales of any of their SLRs...
They won't any more than the current situation, if someone wants a mirror-less camera they will get one,
if they were not going to buy my(if I were Canon) dslr I'd want the customer to buy my mirror-less vs. the other guys.

There are many non-fanboys in the world who will buy what best meets their needs. Ricoh GRIII s are carried by many pros, so are Panasonic GF1 s.

Fuji's X100 will also be bought by many Canon shooters.

If Canon doesn't fill the perceived need, others will. Fuji, Ricoh, Olympus, Panasonic, Leica, etc stay in business buy building things that CaNikon won't.
« Last Edit: February 05, 2011, 01:52:56 PM by c.d.embrey »

Rocky

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Re: Canon Mirrorless [CR1]
« Reply #18 on: February 05, 2011, 04:46:58 PM »
After reading the posts, I have the following thought:
1. In order to complete with the DSLR, the auto focusing speed of the EVIL must be as fast as  the DSLR. So far non of the "mirrorless" can achieve that due to the "live view focusing". That is why Leica sticks to the manual focusing. Experience range finder user can guess the distance and use the " zone focusing " technique and endsup with zero focusing delay. Also all the Leica lenses have about 3/4 turn of the focusing ring for the entire focusing range and depth of field scale. That will definitely help.
2. Overall size is important. Sony has gone over board on minimze the body and ends up with a large lense. Using existing DSLR lens with an adapter is not an answer. That will be too big. Try to compare the f2.0 35mm Aummicro 9 leica) with any F2 35mm dslr lens. The volume is about a factor of 4. So the EVIL needs to have its own set of lens to make the size to be small to lure people from their DSLR.
3. Due to the decrease thickness of the camera body and the will to make smaller lenses, FF in EVIL is almost a dream  due to the high cost of the sensor and the special angled and offset micro lens arrangement ( Leica used it on M9, they may be holding patterns on it) plus soft ware adjustment to achieve even explosre from corner to corner. Even APSC will facing similar problem  to a lesser degree.
3. Marketing pressure/ user perference. Due to the lower demand, the sales volume of EVIL will be quite a bit smaller than the DSLR. So in order to get the R & D and tooling expense back, the EVIL (body and lenses)will be selling a lot higher than the DSLR at the same performance level.  So how many people will buy an EVIL instead of  a DSLR???
4. What is the advantange of EVIL over the DSLR beside size???  That is the same reason why the film SLR has literally wiped out the film range finder camera, except Leica. Even Nikon and Canon stopped producing range finder (with interchangeable lens) in the 60's.
5. my personal choice of mirrorless is down to two. 1. Leica M9. It combined the best of classic interchangeable lens range finder and the digital. Too bad at $8000 body only is too steep for me, even I have some Leica lenses from my M4.  2. FujiFilm X100, I look at it as a high tech  M9  with  a fixed lens.

c.d.embrey

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Re: Canon Mirrorless [CR1]
« Reply #19 on: February 06, 2011, 12:16:07 AM »
After reading the posts, I have the following thought:
1. In order to complete with the DSLR, the auto focusing speed of the EVIL must be as fast as  the DSLR.
Quote

Why do you think that a Mirrorless needs to compete with a DSLR ??? There are an awful lot of people who are not interested with carrying a large, heavy DSLR when going on a family outing. But want something better than a P&S.

Quote
2. Overall size is important ... needs to have its own set of lens to make the size to be small to lure people from their DSLR.

No need to lure away from a DSLR ... many people will own both. And some P&S owners with buy them who aren't interested in Big & Heavy DSLRs. Two different groups to sell to.

Quote
3. ... FF in EVIL is almost a dream ...

Sounds more like a nightmare. If people wanted oversized cameras Olympus, Panasonic and Ricoh wouldn't be selling all the cameras that they do.

Quote
3. Marketing pressure/ user perference. Due to the lower demand, the sales volume of EVIL will be quite a bit smaller than the DSLR. So in order to get the R & D and tooling expense back, the EVIL (body and lenses)will be selling a lot higher than the DSLR at the same performance level.  So how many people will buy an EVIL instead of  a DSLR???

P&S cameras out sell DSLRs because there are many people who don't want or need a DSLR. Mirrorless cameras will sell to people moving-up from a P&S you don't want the size and weight of a DSLR and don't need image quality of a DSLR. How many of your acquaintance s print their snapshots at 20x30 ???
Quote
4. What is the advantange of EVIL over the DSLR beside size???
 

For many people that is enough. Mico 4/3 cameras sell well because of their size and good enough quality. BTW why don't you own a 60 MP + MFD, much better quality than a DSLR :D  :D
Quote
5. my personal choice of mirrorless is down to two. 1. Leica M9. It combined the best of classic interchangeable lens range finder and the digital. Too bad at $8000 body only is too steep for me, even I have some Leica lenses from my M4.  2. FujiFilm X100, I look at it as a high tech  M9  with  a fixed lens.

I think I'll go with a Panasonic GF2 with a 20mm f1.7 lens. YMMV

Rocky

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Re: Canon Mirrorless [CR1]
« Reply #20 on: February 06, 2011, 12:46:11 AM »
My previous post is mainly talking about people that are thinking about switch from DSLR to EVIL. If they do not mind mising the "Kodak momment" and the picture quality that is inferior to the DSLR that they have already own, then any P &S will do. I got nothing aginst EVIL or P&S. In fact there is always a Canon SD 870 as an emergency back up in my camera bag.
Just remember that camera is a highly subjective choice. There is no right or wrong choice. Some aims at price, some aims at picture quality, some at convience and size , some aims at ergonics and features. etc. For me  I cannot justify myself paying the price of a DSLR for a EVIL with a 4/3 sensor and at  least twice the shutter  delay of a DSLR.  The reason why I switch from P &S to DSLR is that I have missed so many picture of moving objects, especially dogs running, childrens playing etc. So will I be giving up my DSLR and goes back to the EVIL???

Jan

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Re: Canon Mirrorless [CR1]
« Reply #21 on: February 06, 2011, 07:44:59 AM »
Maybe the soon-to-be-announced 600D is going to be Canon's first mirrorless camera...  :o

As the 60D moved down to the Rebel-level, the 600D may move down to the EVIL level.

No, wait, the 1100D will be the EVIL cam...

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Re: Canon Mirrorless [CR1]
« Reply #21 on: February 06, 2011, 07:44:59 AM »

olav

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Re: Canon Mirrorless [CR1]
« Reply #22 on: February 06, 2011, 09:37:01 AM »
how it could be worst in picture quality if it is a FF  ?   the mirror is big noisy dusty shake the body ,  I really wait that next generation of cameras , the mirror has no future except for nostalgics
The mirror has a future as long as it is needed for a fast and accurate AF!

ronderick

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Re: Canon Mirrorless [CR1]
« Reply #23 on: February 06, 2011, 09:37:52 AM »
Funny that I actually see the FT-QL mentioned here... I just finish cleaning my dad's copy, which has been recently uncovered in the storage after three decades or so and came back from repairs/cleaning.

If Canon actually introduces a mirrorless camera, I hope they can come out with a FL/FD lens adapter, so I can make some use out of the relic Canon lens collection (though admittingly it's going to be quite a challenge to work those ancient lenses)
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Rocky

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Re: Canon Mirrorless [CR1]
« Reply #24 on: February 06, 2011, 12:23:09 PM »
how it could be worst in picture quality if it is a FF  ?   the mirror is big noisy dusty shake the body ,  I really wait that next generation of cameras , the mirror has no future except for nostalgics
The mirror is what give the DSLR fast auto focusing. As far as I known there is no Mirrorless camera can beat the auto focus speed of  DSLR yet.

Rocky

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Re: Canon Mirrorless [CR1]
« Reply #25 on: February 06, 2011, 12:47:35 PM »
Why do you think that a Mirrorless needs to compete with a DSLR ??? There are an awful lot of people who are not interested with carrying a large, heavy DSLR when going on a family outing. But want something better than a P&S.
No need to lure away from a DSLR ... many people will own both. And some P&S owners with buy them who aren't interested in Big & Heavy DSLRs. Two different groups to sell to.
P&S cameras out sell DSLRs because there are many people who don't want or need a DSLR. Mirrorless cameras will sell to people moving-up from a P&S you don't want the size and weight of a DSLR and don't need image quality of a DSLR. How many of your acquaintance s print their snapshots at 20x30 ???
For many people that is enough. Mico 4/3 cameras sell well because of their size and good enough quality. BTW why don't you own a 60 MP + MFD, much better quality than a DSLR :D  :D

C.D Embrey, my post is  about the EVIL system not P & S. I have never  mentioned  that 4/3 and P &S are not good. You keep on using P & S as a counter agruement and try to confuse the discussion.  People have different  need and  different idea of camera. that is why there are so many different makers and models out there.  I do not own a 60 MP MFD due to the extremely highj price, size and weight.  Also I do not want to deal with 60 MP per picture.   What my acquaintance do with their picture is their own business.

Rocky

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Re: Canon Mirrorless [CR1]
« Reply #26 on: February 06, 2011, 02:52:16 PM »
I'd love it if canon built a compact M-style camera that took EF-lenses. Don't care about the price either. I need it. Problem of course is the rather hefty mount, dwarfing every other mount on the planet, more or less.
Just get the M9 with one lens, It will be about $9500.

markd61

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Re: Canon Mirrorless [CR1]
« Reply #27 on: February 06, 2011, 03:50:23 PM »
As enthusiasts we often lose sight of the fact that the market for cameras is far larger and more diverse than our little corner.
Canon may or may not make an EVIL camera (the 666D? perhaps) but I think that they will do a lot of research in Japan where they are headquartered and where there is a massive market. I also believe that the enthusiast market and casual snapper market are far larger than the pro market, all the MWACS notwithstanding.

As a pro, a mirrorless camera with an excellent eye level VF that was truly silent would be golden for wedding and theater work.
As a realist I recognize that companies like Sony who research the market like crazy will give us cameras like the NEX which is OK but dead useless for a pro in  fast moving environment.
Thus I feel there is a real chance that Canon may give us a glorified P&S that, like the Sony, needs to be held at arm's length to compose and shoot.

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Re: Canon Mirrorless [CR1]
« Reply #27 on: February 06, 2011, 03:50:23 PM »

Rocky

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Re: Canon Mirrorless [CR1]
« Reply #28 on: February 06, 2011, 04:06:28 PM »
As a pro, a mirrorless camera with an excellent eye level VF that was truly silent would be golden for wedding and theater work.
That is the exact reason why Leica M9 and the  Fujifilm X100 are in my mind.

c.d.embrey

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Re: Canon Mirrorless [CR1]
« Reply #29 on: February 06, 2011, 05:10:02 PM »
As enthusiasts we often lose sight of the fact that the market for cameras is far larger and more diverse than our little corner.

Exactly ! Someone who gets it.

Many enthusiasts aways seem to think that if they don't like it, no-one will like it. Get a clue, everything isn't about you, you, you.


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Re: Canon Mirrorless [CR1]
« Reply #29 on: February 06, 2011, 05:10:02 PM »