December 18, 2014, 05:47:08 AM

Author Topic: Shoot JPEG again with 5D3  (Read 8110 times)

kidnaper

  • Rebel T5i
  • ****
  • Posts: 128
    • View Profile
Re: Shoot JPEG again with 5D3
« Reply #15 on: April 26, 2012, 09:16:22 AM »
I read a fair amount of responses, but skimmed over the novels... I shoot RAW to CF and JPEG to SD. Depending on use the JPEG is either enough, or good enough for an initial review to decide which RAW of a series to go straight to.
5DIII 8-200mm minus 35mm in there.

canon rumors FORUM

Re: Shoot JPEG again with 5D3
« Reply #15 on: April 26, 2012, 09:16:22 AM »

TrumpetPower!

  • 1D Mark IV
  • ******
  • Posts: 951
    • View Profile
Re: Shoot JPEG again with 5D3
« Reply #16 on: April 26, 2012, 09:36:12 AM »
The RAW v JPEG debate really should be nothing more than a workflow question, and workflow questions are entirely related to the type of photography you're doing.

If you're shooting landscapes in the spirit of Ansel Adams, you'd be a fool to not shoot in RAW. You're going to be twisting and stretching that image in so many ways that you'll need all the data you can get, and the time it takes the converter to do its thing isn't even a blip on the radar.

If you're shooting the Super Bowl for Sports Illustrated, you'll be unemployed in a heartbeat if you don't shoot JPEG. You're not going to be doing any post-processing at all. If your shots need post-processing (other than cropping), it's because you messed up the exposure; make that newbie mistrake again and you're fired. And the editors don't want RAW; they want JPEGs, and they don't have time to run everything through a batch converter -- they need those JPEGs NOW.

Between those two ends of the spectrum, there's lots of variations. There are wedding photographers who take very few exposures and who slave over each much the same way a landscape photographer does; they should and do shoot RAW. Other wedding photographers machine-gun as much as the SI crew for brides who want an album in their hands the next day; they should and do shoot JPEG.

Almost makes you wonder if, maybe, perhaps, possibly, there's a reason why the cameras support both formats and have so many options for picking which to record....

Cheers,

b&

helpful

  • EOS M2
  • ****
  • Posts: 218
  • Ecclesiastes 3:11
    • View Profile
Re: Shoot JPEG again with 5D3
« Reply #17 on: April 26, 2012, 11:23:08 AM »
With the 5DIII I have been shooting RAW to the CF and Large JPG to the SD, a luxury I really appreciate.  In nearly all of the sports and people captures I have taken, the JPGs look terrific.  So much so that I have ended up spending a bunch of hours in LR 4.1 just trying to get the RAWs to look as good.  Then staring at my computer screen, I am in disbelief that I can't get them to look noticeably better.   I am the first to admit I am low on the LR learning curve having used Aperture for some time and just converting about a month ago.   Frankly, I have begun to wonder if the extra effort on RAW is worthwhile for action shots that mostly end up on website albums, Facebook pages and rarely see large print.  Even a lot of the candid and tight shots of faces look fantastic 1x1 from images that originated as JPG.  There is still plenty of room to push sharpening and noise reduction even in really high ISO images.

For fast moving sports events with lots of high speed bursts, I am seriously considering going with JPG only for in-game shots.  I can use a custom function selection to quickly pop back to CF-RAW/SD-JPG for group photos and unusual situations where I want the security of a good digital negative to fall back on.   I am certainly not in the JPG only camp but there are clearly situations that suit it. 

edit - please don't refer to me as thinking I am superior at taking photos than the average enthusiast. I don't believe anything other than I am seriously struggling to bring out the benefit that RAW offers.

That's what I am trying to get across, too. RAW processing makes us duplicate what the camera is already doing, very, very well.

The ultimate output medium of any photography is essentially at the 24-bit color level of a JPEG image.

Why don't we at least try to learn how to use the camera as an effective RAW processor, simply because it is?
5DIII, 5DII, 7D x5, 6D, T2i, T3, 1D X, 10-22mm, 16-35mm II, 18-55mm II, 18-135mm IS x2, 70-200mm f/2.8L II, 24mm f/1.4L II, 50mm f/1.4, 50mm 1/1.8 II x2, 85mm f/1.8 x2, 100mm f/2 x2, 135mm f/2L x2, 200mm f/2.8L II x2, 1.4X III, 2.0X II, 60mm f/2.8 Macro, etc. only had room to list a few Canon items

Mt Spokane Photography

  • EF 50mm F 0.7 IS
  • ***********
  • Posts: 9360
    • View Profile
Re: Shoot JPEG again with 5D3
« Reply #18 on: April 26, 2012, 11:31:35 AM »
[Why don't we at least try to learn how to use the camera as an effective RAW processor, simply because it is?
Raw is very fast if you learn to use the tools.  I use jpeg where appropriate, and have nothing aginst it, but I also know how to process 3000 raw images from a days shoot in a couple of hours or less in raw. 

helpful

  • EOS M2
  • ****
  • Posts: 218
  • Ecclesiastes 3:11
    • View Profile
Re: Shoot JPEG again with 5D3
« Reply #19 on: April 26, 2012, 11:47:15 AM »
Thanks for the multiple replies!
@helpful: I really appreciate your post! I like strong convictions and find your tone very convincing. Unfortunately, I don't entirely understand your advice: how comes that you change white balance in seconds? Or tenths of seconds, exposure settings? Do you manually adjust K on white balance? How exactly do you proceed?

I use a pure white target (white is really a reflection of an equal mixture of the three wavelengths of light) which is not pointed directly at the light source, but between a 45 to 90 degree angle. I try to duplicate the angle of someone's face relative to the light source. I can just use a white paper for simplicity. The side of the paper in the shade usually has a different color cast to it, so go with the side that is most representative of the lighting on your subjects (whether they are people in a room, people on a basketball court, etc.)

I make sure that the RGB histogram is enabled and change the exposure settings to properly expose the paper at a shutter speed 1/10th or below if I am indoors, except under incandescent lighting which does not have color shifts during the alternating current cycle. In natural light (e.g., daytime outdoors) or in 100% incandescent lighting, the shutter speed is irrelevant. I set the custom white balance to the paper, and check the RGB histogram to make sure all color channels are getting the same exposure. I repeat if necessary.

Adjusting Kelvin lets you change the receptivity to the wavelengths of light all at once, but it is not exact as taking a photo of a white subject. White contains an equal amount of all three color channels, red/blue/green, and so it allows all three color channels to be perfectly calibrated to the light source, with a single exposure.

I agree that most of the Av shots have strange exposures. How can I learn the correct exposure / aperture ? I'd be still relying on the Ettl metering to check manual settings. Well, I'll try harder to practice manual mode! Now I am tempted.

During the time when you were setting white balance, you can also determine the proper exposure value for the lighting conditions at the same time. If you know the brightness of the paper, you can use it in place of the neutral gray card (18% usually, but there are arguments about that.)

Your LCD can be a very bad idea of the exposure, especially if it is set to automatic brightness adjustment. (If you get your finger over the sensor below the LCD on the 5D3, for instance, the LCD will go very dim even though your picture's exposure is unchanged). But your histogram is an accurate indication of exposure.

You can look at the RGB histogram of the white paper shot (after setting the white balance) in order to set your exposure. (And this time, just use the same shutter speed and ISO that you expect to use for the action you plan to be shooting). Take a picture of the paper when it is directly facing the light source and you should see a thin high peak for each color channel. Change the exposure (I am assuming you are using manual exposure to be able to control aperture, shutter speed, and ISO) so that the peak for each color channel is about 10% below the right of the histogram. Your paper should be directly reflecting ("aimed at") the light source under the same lighting conditions that your subjects will be photographed in.

Note that there are often different types of light in big stadiums (i.e., some pinker lights, some bluer) and if you are at the wrong spot, sometimes only a row of blue lights are hitting the subjects, for example. And some lights in bad high schools are actually missing parts of the color spectrum. In those cases, proper colors are just about impossible, but it doesn't have anything to do with what format of image you are recording.

I am not trying to bash RAWs. They are a good way to save all the camera's information that was used when the shot was recorded and processed to JPEG, just in case any of that is needed. I will "turn them on" whenever I feel like it. But they only give 6 more bits of data, and a tiny exposure error (just less than one stop) will neutralize any benefit that the RAW may provide.


The reason why I started this thread is that with this camera just like other posters found my jpg look just like postprocessed RAWs already ! I use Aperture plus NIK suite. Could not sharpen better, could not impove the colours, could not significantly improve contrast, so I started putting RAW on CF and jpg on SD but ended up scratching my head. Well, try yourself. It's still early days with the mark III, and I don't state that it's only jpg worth, just that the jpg machine is good and tweaking the incamera settings on contrast, sharpness etc yields a good time saving for non-critical work.
5DIII, 5DII, 7D x5, 6D, T2i, T3, 1D X, 10-22mm, 16-35mm II, 18-55mm II, 18-135mm IS x2, 70-200mm f/2.8L II, 24mm f/1.4L II, 50mm f/1.4, 50mm 1/1.8 II x2, 85mm f/1.8 x2, 100mm f/2 x2, 135mm f/2L x2, 200mm f/2.8L II x2, 1.4X III, 2.0X II, 60mm f/2.8 Macro, etc. only had room to list a few Canon items

helpful

  • EOS M2
  • ****
  • Posts: 218
  • Ecclesiastes 3:11
    • View Profile
Re: Shoot JPEG again with 5D3
« Reply #20 on: April 26, 2012, 11:56:43 AM »
The RAW v JPEG debate really should be nothing more than a workflow question, and workflow questions are entirely related to the type of photography you're doing.

If you're shooting landscapes in the spirit of Ansel Adams, you'd be a fool to not shoot in RAW. You're going to be twisting and stretching that image in so many ways that you'll need all the data you can get, and the time it takes the converter to do its thing isn't even a blip on the radar.

If you're shooting the Super Bowl for Sports Illustrated, you'll be unemployed in a heartbeat if you don't shoot JPEG. You're not going to be doing any post-processing at all. If your shots need post-processing (other than cropping), it's because you messed up the exposure; make that newbie mistrake again and you're fired. And the editors don't want RAW; they want JPEGs, and they don't have time to run everything through a batch converter -- they need those JPEGs NOW.

Almost makes you wonder if, maybe, perhaps, possibly, there's a reason why the cameras support both formats and have so many options for picking which to record....

Cheers,

b&

I like your viewpoint!
5DIII, 5DII, 7D x5, 6D, T2i, T3, 1D X, 10-22mm, 16-35mm II, 18-55mm II, 18-135mm IS x2, 70-200mm f/2.8L II, 24mm f/1.4L II, 50mm f/1.4, 50mm 1/1.8 II x2, 85mm f/1.8 x2, 100mm f/2 x2, 135mm f/2L x2, 200mm f/2.8L II x2, 1.4X III, 2.0X II, 60mm f/2.8 Macro, etc. only had room to list a few Canon items

davidbellissima

  • PowerShot G1 X II
  • ***
  • Posts: 38
    • View Profile
    • Wedding Photographer in London
Re: Shoot JPEG again with 5D3
« Reply #21 on: April 26, 2012, 01:23:03 PM »
I shoot weddings. RAW files go into the CF card and JPEGs into the SD card as a backup only. Why throw away the flexibility of RAW files when you have the choice...? Memory is cheap.

canon rumors FORUM

Re: Shoot JPEG again with 5D3
« Reply #21 on: April 26, 2012, 01:23:03 PM »

te4o

  • Canon 70D
  • ****
  • Posts: 287
    • View Profile
Re: Shoot JPEG again with 5D3
« Reply #22 on: April 27, 2012, 02:59:55 AM »
You can look at the RGB histogram of the white paper shot (after setting the white balance) in order to set your exposure. (And this time, just use the same shutter speed and ISO that you expect to use for the action you plan to be shooting). Take a picture of the paper when it is directly facing the light source and you should see a thin high peak for each color channel. Change the exposure (I am assuming you are using manual exposure to be able to control aperture, shutter speed, and ISO) so that the peak for each color channel is about 10% below the right of the histogram. Your paper should be directly reflecting ("aimed at") the light source under the same lighting conditions that your subjects will be photographed in.

Helpful, great explanation. Now, if eg. the red channel is overexposed on the custom WB shot of your paper how do you correct that? Do you manually adjust your WB more towards blue, amber, green or whatever combination is necessary? Or do you use WB bracketing?
I know, this is not necessary with RAWs and makes post-shooting correction easier but would be nice to know how to shoot right in camera.
Thanks
5D3 (04/12), Carl Zeiss ZE 21, 35/1.4, 50MP, 100MP
Canon 135/2, Sigma 85/1.4
SONY RX100

Tcapp

  • Canon 7D MK II
  • *****
  • Posts: 510
    • View Profile
    • Timothy Capp Photography
Re: Shoot JPEG again with 5D3
« Reply #23 on: April 28, 2012, 03:16:15 AM »

But why get yourself a 5D3 to shoot JPEG? There must have been a bazillion words written in the RAW vs JPEG debate and the pro-RAW conclusions remain totally valid.

Frankly it freaks me out to shoot JPEG on any camera other than my phone...the potential for post-pro grief makes it a non-starter. If you know for 100% certain your output requirements are modest, check out mRAW.


I bought 2 5D3s to shoot JPEG only.  I have shot RAW exclusively for years and edited probably over 100,000 RAW and JPEG images.  RAW is really only a benefit to me when I miss the exposure or WB.  Sure RAW captures a lot more information but if you don't need that information then it is a waste.  I shoot 20-30 weddings a year and probably shoot 3000-5000 pictures per wedding and a good JPEG is just as good as a RAW image unless your settings are off or you plan on doing extensive dodging or burning.  If you shoot manual and dial in the WB using the Kelvin color temperature and the WB shift to properly balance the color of the light source your JPEG is going to be as good if not better than if it were taken in RAW.       

Why shoot 5000 photos at one wedding?

Not saying what you are doing is wrong, I'm just genuinely curious. I usually take about 1000 per wedding, and I feel that is a lot. How many photos go into an album you make?

5000 photos would kill my workflow. It would take too much time. Time = money, so less photos means more money.

So, just curious why you shoot so many? How many keepers do you get out of that 5k?
5DIII, 5DII, 7D, 50 1.4, 85 1.4, 70-200 2.8 IS L, 70-200 2.8 IS L II, 2x TC III, 15 Fisheye 2.8, 100 Macro 2.8, 24 1.4 L
http://www.TimothyCapp.com
Follow me on facebook! https://www.facebook.com/pages/Timothy-Capp-Photography/94664798952

briansquibb

  • Guest
Re: Shoot JPEG again with 5D3
« Reply #24 on: April 28, 2012, 03:25:54 AM »

Why shoot 5000 photos at one wedding?

Not saying what you are doing is wrong, I'm just genuinely curious. I usually take about 1000 per wedding, and I feel that is a lot. How many photos go into an album you make?


I reckon on 1000 per wedding of which 200-300 are kept on the DVD they get

Tcapp

  • Canon 7D MK II
  • *****
  • Posts: 510
    • View Profile
    • Timothy Capp Photography
Re: Shoot JPEG again with 5D3
« Reply #25 on: April 28, 2012, 03:28:23 AM »

Why shoot 5000 photos at one wedding?

Not saying what you are doing is wrong, I'm just genuinely curious. I usually take about 1000 per wedding, and I feel that is a lot. How many photos go into an album you make?


I reckon on 1000 per wedding of which 200-300 are kept on the DVD they get

See, that I think is totally reasonable!
5DIII, 5DII, 7D, 50 1.4, 85 1.4, 70-200 2.8 IS L, 70-200 2.8 IS L II, 2x TC III, 15 Fisheye 2.8, 100 Macro 2.8, 24 1.4 L
http://www.TimothyCapp.com
Follow me on facebook! https://www.facebook.com/pages/Timothy-Capp-Photography/94664798952

te4o

  • Canon 70D
  • ****
  • Posts: 287
    • View Profile
Re: Shoot JPEG again with 5D3
« Reply #26 on: May 02, 2012, 08:54:30 PM »
After some more extensive comparisons I must apologize to the forum:
There is a lot more immediately visible IQ with RAW as compared to the JPEGs from the 5D3.
So, I switched off the parallel RAW+JPEG recording to both cards.
From the workflow point of view this is a different issue, can't comment on that.
5D3 (04/12), Carl Zeiss ZE 21, 35/1.4, 50MP, 100MP
Canon 135/2, Sigma 85/1.4
SONY RX100

jaayres20

  • Rebel T5i
  • ****
  • Posts: 123
    • View Profile
    • Joshua Ayres Photography
Re: Shoot JPEG again with 5D3
« Reply #27 on: May 29, 2012, 08:15:57 PM »

But why get yourself a 5D3 to shoot JPEG? There must have been a bazillion words written in the RAW vs JPEG debate and the pro-RAW conclusions remain totally valid.

Frankly it freaks me out to shoot JPEG on any camera other than my phone...the potential for post-pro grief makes it a non-starter. If you know for 100% certain your output requirements are modest, check out mRAW.


I bought 2 5D3s to shoot JPEG only.  I have shot RAW exclusively for years and edited probably over 100,000 RAW and JPEG images.  RAW is really only a benefit to me when I miss the exposure or WB.  Sure RAW captures a lot more information but if you don't need that information then it is a waste.  I shoot 20-30 weddings a year and probably shoot 3000-5000 pictures per wedding and a good JPEG is just as good as a RAW image unless your settings are off or you plan on doing extensive dodging or burning.  If you shoot manual and dial in the WB using the Kelvin color temperature and the WB shift to properly balance the color of the light source your JPEG is going to be as good if not better than if it were taken in RAW.       

Why shoot 5000 photos at one wedding?

Not saying what you are doing is wrong, I'm just genuinely curious. I usually take about 1000 per wedding, and I feel that is a lot. How many photos go into an album you make?

5000 photos would kill my workflow. It would take too much time. Time = money, so less photos means more money.

So, just curious why you shoot so many? How many keepers do you get out of that 5k?

I am usually shooting for 12 hours with few breaks. I deliver between 1200-1800 edited pictures for the client. It takes me about 8-10 hours to cull and edit a wedding.

canon rumors FORUM

Re: Shoot JPEG again with 5D3
« Reply #27 on: May 29, 2012, 08:15:57 PM »

wickidwombat

  • Canon EF 400mm f/2.8L IS II
  • *********
  • Posts: 4572
    • View Profile
Re: Shoot JPEG again with 5D3
« Reply #28 on: May 29, 2012, 09:39:30 PM »
personally i cant stand the jpg files i just turned it off
the in camera processing is not to my taste
APS-H Fanboy

pwp

  • 1D X
  • *******
  • Posts: 1632
    • View Profile
Re: Shoot JPEG again with 5D3
« Reply #29 on: May 29, 2012, 10:15:59 PM »
I agree. Put the RAW on the CF card and the JPEG onto the SD card.

Does this have any noticeable or measurable effect on the buffer? I'd like my 6 FPS to last as long as possible.

PW

canon rumors FORUM

Re: Shoot JPEG again with 5D3
« Reply #29 on: May 29, 2012, 10:15:59 PM »