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Author Topic: More Full Frame Cameras on the 2012 Horizon? [CR2/CR1]  (Read 55988 times)

Marine03

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Re: More Full Frame Cameras on the 2012 Horizon? [CR2/CR1]
« Reply #75 on: April 30, 2012, 02:39:46 PM »

It is very easy to produce a camera worse than 5DII.

1. They can use a 600-like body
2. They can omit Lens Micro Adjustment
3. They can put a worse viewfinder

Even the use of an SD card although of course NOT WORSE by itself may mean that many CF users who have put a lot of money to buy very good CF cards will have to buy again cards...

I think more likely a
1. similar sensor as mkII
2. 7d-like body
3. digit 5 (not 5+)
4. similar to 7d AF
5. slow burst - same MP or 5-6 fps and fewer MP

Really???

You just described a much much better 5DmkII !!!

Same sensor, similar body, better electronics (Digic 5), better autofocus...

This is the camera between 5DII and 5DIII not an entry level...

I want one :)

What seems ridiculous to me is that the 5D2 was released 3+ years ago, you don't think with thousands and thousands of them on the streets that the cost of manufacturing can't be reduced to say 1,500?   Who cares if it used to cost 10 thousand dollars eventually things become cheaper.  If you could show me that there were not newer better camera's coming out anytime soon, how can I as a 450D user justify 2,000 on a nearly 4 year old body.   

As others have said this could make FF reasonable starter camera
 
60D Body
7D Autofocus
6FPS
no LCD on top
no weather proofing
No video  (i personally never take video) 

So put this camera where the 7D use to be at 1500, now when the 5DX comes slot that at like 2500 and then drop the 5D2 completely or price ijt at like 1200 
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Re: More Full Frame Cameras on the 2012 Horizon? [CR2/CR1]
« Reply #75 on: April 30, 2012, 02:39:46 PM »

preppyak

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Re: More Full Frame Cameras on the 2012 Horizon? [CR2/CR1]
« Reply #76 on: April 30, 2012, 03:42:20 PM »
No video  (i personally never take video) 

So put this camera where the 7D use to be at 1500, now when the 5DX comes slot that at like 2500 and then drop the 5D2 completely or price ijt at like 1200
No video instantly kills the market for that camera, and makes it impossible for Canon to sell it cheap. You want them to use a sensor they've already made (keeps cost down), in which case, video costs them nothing to add in. I can put video on a 50D, which wasn't sold with it, so it's clearly just a firmware/software addition. There may be a few hardware pieces to make it look better, but ultimately, it's cheap if not free. But, having it means way more people buy the camera, which means the cost of manufacturing is cheaper for Canon (offsets R&D, etc over many more consumers). Taking it out would definitely not offset the sales loss.

I agree that the body would have to be 60D like, the AF would probably be the 7D one, but I don't think they can put 6FPS in it, even if the camera can handle it. It'd have to be the same FPS as the 5dII. Even then, it probably still retails for $2k. I'd basically expect a 5dII with very slight improvements that allow them to be manufactured cheaper.

Independent

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Re: More Full Frame Cameras on the 2012 Horizon? [CR2/CR1]
« Reply #77 on: April 30, 2012, 03:56:05 PM »
If Canon introduces an "entry level" FF camera, will it likely have a built-in flash?  Why is that verboten on the 5ds but not on Nikon's D800?  Any photographer could benefit from fill-in flash on some shots.

Marine03

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Re: More Full Frame Cameras on the 2012 Horizon? [CR2/CR1]
« Reply #78 on: April 30, 2012, 04:04:58 PM »
No video  (i personally never take video) 

So put this camera where the 7D use to be at 1500, now when the 5DX comes slot that at like 2500 and then drop the 5D2 completely or price ijt at like 1200
No video instantly kills the market for that camera, and makes it impossible for Canon to sell it cheap. You want them to use a sensor they've already made (keeps cost down), in which case, video costs them nothing to add in. I can put video on a 50D, which wasn't sold with it, so it's clearly just a firmware/software addition. There may be a few hardware pieces to make it look better, but ultimately, it's cheap if not free. But, having it means way more people buy the camera, which means the cost of manufacturing is cheaper for Canon (offsets R&D, etc over many more consumers). Taking it out would definitely not offset the sales loss.

I agree that the body would have to be 60D like, the AF would probably be the 7D one, but I don't think they can put 6FPS in it, even if the camera can handle it. It'd have to be the same FPS as the 5dII. Even then, it probably still retails for $2k. I'd basically expect a 5dII with very slight improvements that allow them to be manufactured cheaper.

Ok so video is important to sales. Take 5dmk3 sensor limit ISO to 12000 drop to 5fps put in a cheaper body and use 7d AF.  Seem like a good compromise?   I'm not even sure why they use metal chassis when I've never beaten up my 450D. The screen is the delicate part
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tron

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Re: More Full Frame Cameras on the 2012 Horizon? [CR2/CR1]
« Reply #79 on: April 30, 2012, 04:05:53 PM »
What seems ridiculous to me is that the 5D2 was released 3+ years ago, you don't think with thousands and thousands of them on the streets that the cost of manufacturing can't be reduced to say 1,500?   Who cares if it used to cost 10 thousand dollars eventually things become cheaper.  If you could show me that there were not newer better camera's coming out anytime soon, how can I as a 450D user justify 2,000 on a nearly 4 year old body.   

As others have said this could make FF reasonable starter camera
 
60D Body
7D Autofocus
6FPS
no LCD on top
no weather proofing
No video  (i personally never take video) 

So put this camera where the 7D use to be at 1500, now when the 5DX comes slot that at like 2500 and then drop the 5D2 completely or price ijt at like 1200

I think enough with the psychological problems!
If some one wants a FF camera to upgrade from a Rebel how can the fact that 5DII is 4 years old, be a problem? Is it or is it not a much much better body?

As far as the price is concerned they surely can lower the price and have profit, the problem is they obviously want more...

Why no LCD on top? Is that costly? Even the cheapest analog autofocus Canon cameras had LCD on top!!!
Still apart from this you described a better than 5DII camera! I still want one!

moreorless

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Re: More Full Frame Cameras on the 2012 Horizon? [CR2/CR1]
« Reply #80 on: April 30, 2012, 04:13:13 PM »
I can't see Canon being THAT cheap on the body, handicapping AF, lowering FPS, reducing weather sealing yes but lower quality than the 60D seems unlikely to me given the target audience.

My guess is that whether its cheap or not Canon's next FF body will push MP, they hinted that they were taking a "wait and see approach" with the D800 and more recently that there might be some kind of response latter this year.

Seems like theres alot of room to produce a true sucessor to the 5D mk2 without stepping on the 5D mk3's toes to much to me. Maybe reduce the build a little, offer less FPS, limate the AF to a smaller number of widely spaced points, one card slot and a 40 MP sensor. Price that below the D800 by $600-800 and I think it could potentially do very well.

Marine03

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Re: More Full Frame Cameras on the 2012 Horizon? [CR2/CR1]
« Reply #81 on: April 30, 2012, 04:16:18 PM »
What seems ridiculous to me is that the 5D2 was released 3+ years ago, you don't think with thousands and thousands of them on the streets that the cost of manufacturing can't be reduced to say 1,500?   Who cares if it used 
no more...

Why no LCD on top? Is that costly? Even the cheapest analog autofocus Canon cameras had LCD on top!!!
Still apart from this you described a better than 5DII camera! I still want one!

Basically your telling me just because the mk2 is still good there is no reason for change. My 1996 Acura integra was the worlds fastest FWD car when it came out but somehow they made other cars.    And with what Nikon etc are putting on the market now it's time to thank th mk2 for its service but say good bye
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Re: More Full Frame Cameras on the 2012 Horizon? [CR2/CR1]
« Reply #81 on: April 30, 2012, 04:16:18 PM »

tron

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Re: More Full Frame Cameras on the 2012 Horizon? [CR2/CR1]
« Reply #82 on: April 30, 2012, 04:25:00 PM »
You inadvertently changed the quotations!
The last one is NOT MINE. It's your comments. Mine is the small paragraph mentioning the LCD on the top.
Allow me to fix it:

What seems ridiculous to me is that the 5D2 was released 3+ years ago, you don't think with thousands and thousands of them on the streets that the cost of manufacturing can't be reduced to say 1,500?   Who cares if it used 
no more...
Why no LCD on top? Is that costly? Even the cheapest analog autofocus Canon cameras had LCD on top!!!
Still apart from this you described a better than 5DII camera! I still want one!

Basically your telling me just because the mk2 is still good there is no reason for change. My 1996 Acura integra was the worlds fastest FWD car when it came out but somehow they made other cars.    And with what Nikon etc are putting on the market now it's time to thank th mk2 for its service but say good bye

And continue by saying that you would like a cheaper than 5DmkII FF camera (which will be supposed to be worse too) and somehow this is progress?
« Last Edit: April 30, 2012, 04:29:04 PM by tron »

Marine03

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Re: More Full Frame Cameras on the 2012 Horizon? [CR2/CR1]
« Reply #83 on: April 30, 2012, 04:36:26 PM »
You inadvertently changed the quotations!
The last one is NOT MINE. It's your comments. Mine is the small paragraph mentioning the LCD on the top.
Allow me to fix it:

What seems ridiculous to me is that the 5D2 was released 3+ years ago, you don't think with thousands and thousands of them on the streets that the cost of manufacturing can't be reduced to say 1,500?   Who cares if it used 
no more...
Why no LCD on top? Is that costly? Even the cheapest analog autofocus Canon cameras had LCD on top!!!
Still apart from this you described a better than 5DII camera! I still want one!

Basically your telling me just because the mk2 is still good there is no reason for change. My 1996 Acura integra was the worlds fastest FWD car when it came out but somehow they made other cars.    And with what Nikon etc are putting on the market now it's time to thank th mk2 for its service but say good bye

And continue by saying that you would like a cheaper than 5DmkII FF camera (which will be supposed to be worse too) and somehow this is progress?

You mistake price for quality. You could argue the features on a t3i with its screen are nicer but cheaper also.
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RLPhoto

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Re: More Full Frame Cameras on the 2012 Horizon? [CR2/CR1]
« Reply #84 on: April 30, 2012, 04:44:13 PM »
Man if they took the sensor from the 5Dc and revamped it up to modern specs, Id buy One ASAP. 12MP is enough for me.

Cgdillan

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Re: More Full Frame Cameras on the 2012 Horizon? [CR2/CR1]
« Reply #85 on: April 30, 2012, 05:04:22 PM »
It's all sounding like an entry level FF camera would be kinda like a ff 7d in a 60d body and would replace the 5d mkii
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briansquibb

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Re: More Full Frame Cameras on the 2012 Horizon? [CR2/CR1]
« Reply #86 on: April 30, 2012, 05:10:54 PM »
I dont see the issue with buying an older design as long as it does its job. Also all the bugs and problems have been resolved.

I got a 1DS3 (older than the 5DII) and produce clean and high IQ all day long. Best camera I have ever bought - cheaper than the 5DIII and more functionality.

5DII has the same benefits over anything up to the 60D

Marsu42

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Re: More Full Frame Cameras on the 2012 Horizon? [CR2/CR1]
« Reply #87 on: April 30, 2012, 05:14:30 PM »
Dof is thinner on a crop in absolute terms

Thanks for explaining, I was really mistaken about that.

I can't see Canon being THAT cheap on the body, handicapping AF, lowering FPS, reducing weather sealing yes but lower quality than the 60D seems unlikely to me given the target audience.

Ultimately, Canon will be as cheap or not as the buyers dictate it - and just now, ff has the "pro" marketing sticker on it, and Canon will exploit this with a price premium as long as they can get away with it. Thus, I do see a ff high mp body next to or above the 5d3, a 5d2 successor at ~2000$, but imho a real ff entry level body is years away.

I got a 1DS3 (older than the 5DII) and produce clean and high IQ all day long. Best camera I have ever bought - cheaper than the 5DIII and more functionality.

What's the functionality of the 1ds3 that you're badly missing from the 5d3?

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Re: More Full Frame Cameras on the 2012 Horizon? [CR2/CR1]
« Reply #87 on: April 30, 2012, 05:14:30 PM »

briansquibb

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Re: More Full Frame Cameras on the 2012 Horizon? [CR2/CR1]
« Reply #88 on: April 30, 2012, 05:55:41 PM »
I got a 1DS3 (older than the 5DII) and produce clean and high IQ all day long. Best camera I have ever bought - cheaper than the 5DIII and more functionality.

What's the functionality of the 1ds3 that you're badly missing from the 5d3?

Metering on the AF point. f/8 AF

My 1D4, another old design has significantly more functionality than the 5D3, shame it isn't 22 mp
« Last Edit: April 30, 2012, 05:57:25 PM by briansquibb »

plutonium10

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Re: More Full Frame Cameras on the 2012 Horizon? [CR2/CR1]
« Reply #89 on: April 30, 2012, 06:06:50 PM »
Ok, here's something that people often seem to overlook. Despite being somewhat outdated, the 5D mk II still sells well. Canon has simply been operating on the principle of "if it aint broke, don't fix it." When people stop buying the mk II, Canon will replace it, most likely with an affordable entry-level body.

Now here's my vision of an entry level FF camera (6D, shall we say?) Put an 18 megapixel FF sensor and pentaprism in a 7D body with slightly updated (read: more consistently accurate) 19-point autofocus and a single Digic V. Maybe give it 5 fps to avoid canibalization of both 5D mkIII and 7D sales. Given that the 5D II with a 21.1mp sensor sells for about $2200, I see no reason why this new body with less MP couldn't sell for the same or slightly less, again still allowing the faster, $500 cheaper 7D (or 7D mk II) to retain it's "poor man's 1D" niche in the EOS ecosystem.
« Last Edit: April 30, 2012, 06:08:32 PM by plutonium10 »
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Re: More Full Frame Cameras on the 2012 Horizon? [CR2/CR1]
« Reply #89 on: April 30, 2012, 06:06:50 PM »