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Author Topic: More Full Frame Cameras on the 2012 Horizon? [CR2/CR1]  (Read 37282 times)

elflord

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Re: More Full Frame Cameras on the 2012 Horizon? [CR2/CR1]
« Reply #150 on: May 03, 2012, 07:32:45 PM »
So I'm looking for 5D2 with improved AF at a slightly increased price point - but if the market doesn't offer what I want, then that's the way it is. I'll happily use the hardware I own (with it's limitations) and see what the future brings. I'm not in a rush :)

What is your reason for wanting a full frame ? 7D seems like a more natural choice if you're taking a lot of BIF pictures.

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Re: More Full Frame Cameras on the 2012 Horizon? [CR2/CR1]
« Reply #150 on: May 03, 2012, 07:32:45 PM »

dilbert

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Re: More Full Frame Cameras on the 2012 Horizon? [CR2/CR1]
« Reply #151 on: May 03, 2012, 09:08:45 PM »
2500$ is not such a low cost. It's basically how much the 5D2 costed before the 5D3 was announced. At such conditions I would still buy the D800 for 3000$.
Remember that spec-wise Nikon has much more room for manouvre. If their D600 has 24MP and 39 AF points like the D7000, it's a lot less than their D800 but still better than most of what Canon can even think to put on the market. And this would cost no more than 2000-2200$.
If Canon wants to be competitive, they have to take the lower tier at 1800$ or so.

The rumours are that the D600 will be about half the price of the D800/D800E, so....

briansquibb

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Re: More Full Frame Cameras on the 2012 Horizon? [CR2/CR1]
« Reply #152 on: May 04, 2012, 02:45:59 AM »
So I'm looking for 5D2 with improved AF at a slightly increased price point - but if the market doesn't offer what I want, then that's the way it is. I'll happily use the hardware I own (with it's limitations) and see what the future brings. I'm not in a rush :)

What is your reason for wanting a full frame ? 7D seems like a more natural choice if you're taking a lot of BIF pictures.

Doing BIF with FF is possible but requires a very different set of equipment and budget than with a crop.

An option might be a used 1D4, but even that requires (I would suggest) a minimum of a 500 f/4, whereas a 7D would be very reasonable with a 400 f/5.6

moreorless

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Re: More Full Frame Cameras on the 2012 Horizon? [CR2/CR1]
« Reply #153 on: May 04, 2012, 06:38:17 AM »
Same problem you would have with a entry level FF body. Nowadays you can buy a 5D2 body for about 1700€, but the AF alone keeps me (and many others, I guess) from buying it. The 5D2 looked already "old" in 2009 when the 7D came out with its significant better specs,

I have no problem with autofocus on my 5D Mark II, maybe that means I'm doing something wrong  ???

Despite this woefully inadequate autofocus, it was a popular SLR for event photography, weddings, portraits, and landscapes. It wasn't the best sports or bif photographers camera, but then it was never really marketed for that.  If autofocus was really important for wedding photography, the market could have bought the D700 and got a more advanced AF system at a comparable price.

There are several applications for which one shot autofocus with the center point works really well. I really wouldn't want to allow the camera to choose the AF point for most of the shooting I do, because I seldom have enough depth of field for that to work very well (if I did have enough dof for indiscriminate selection of focal point to work, I could also get the focus near enough with single point / one shot)

I suppose it could be due to ignorance on my part as I don't use the camera for anything that requires top of the line AF, but I have the sneaking suspicion that many of the AF complainers are unfamiliar with the AF system on the 5D -- the complaints are generally short on specifics. What subject matter, with what mode/settings are they shooting in that fails to deliver results ? What do they expect from the AF system on their cameras?

The issue there was surely that the D700 offered inferior resolution with the difference between 12 and 21 MP being very relivant for the print sizes many event photographers produce. If Canon were giving up both resolution and AF performance to Nikon I'm guessing the end result would be very different.

I'd guess that the biggest issue for many 5D mk2 users wasnt nesserally the camera being unable to deal with sports or wildlife but rather the spacing and accuracey of the AF points.  If a new high resolution FF body had an AF system with say 20ish AF points spread over the same area as the pro system I'm guessing alot of people would be more than happy with it.

If Canon have a higher resolution sensor to use putting it in a body like that at a lower price seems to make more sense than producing a "budget 5D mk3" which could potentially cannibalize its sales.

To me having a cheaper high resolution body and a more expensive all rounder seems to make better business sense than Nikon potentially doing the reverse. Pros will be willing to pay to have everything in one box where as amatures will be willing to put up with having to work around some weaknesses if it saves them money.

azmanms

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Re: More Full Frame Cameras on the 2012 Horizon? [CR2/CR1]
« Reply #154 on: May 04, 2012, 07:17:02 AM »
canon recently have design 120MP sensor. Could it be FF 120MP monster?
http://www.canon.com/technology/pdf/tech2011e.pdf Page 65

Positron

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Re: More Full Frame Cameras on the 2012 Horizon? [CR2/CR1]
« Reply #155 on: May 04, 2012, 11:58:51 AM »
canon recently have design 120MP sensor. Could it be FF 120MP monster?
http://www.canon.com/technology/pdf/tech2011e.pdf Page 65

It's not even that recent, I believe they said it was APS-H, and I'm about 99% certain they demoed it for marketing purposes/to scare competitors. They've never revealed a sensor before actually going and using it, as far as I know.

Marsu42

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Re: More Full Frame Cameras on the 2012 Horizon? [CR2/CR1]
« Reply #156 on: May 04, 2012, 03:04:39 PM »
and I'm about 99% certain they demoed it for marketing purposes/to scare competitors. They've never revealed a sensor before actually going and using it, as far as I know.

Sounds like water-cooled cpus @10ghz or two dual-gpu cards in a pc :-p ... there is no doubt any high-tech company can design impressive things, but really producing them at a competitive price and putting them in a product that is working in the real world is another thing. Canon can show off what they want, the impression that they are lacking innovations and are on the loosing side vs. Nikon/Sony will stick unless they either compete with lower prices or a surprising 70d & ff entry level body.


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Re: More Full Frame Cameras on the 2012 Horizon? [CR2/CR1]
« Reply #156 on: May 04, 2012, 03:04:39 PM »

elflord

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Re: More Full Frame Cameras on the 2012 Horizon? [CR2/CR1]
« Reply #157 on: May 04, 2012, 06:41:13 PM »
The issue there was surely that the D700 offered inferior resolution with the difference between 12 and 21 MP being very relivant for the print sizes many event photographers produce. If Canon were giving up both resolution and AF performance to Nikon I'm guessing the end result would be very different.

OK, I buy that the market liked the extra megapixels. However, I maintain that if autofocus was terribly important, they had several other options. Apparently, autofocus took a back seat not only to megapixels, also to sensor size, and cost (you could have had both for a little more money).

Quote
I'd guess that the biggest issue for many 5D mk2 users wasnt nesserally the camera being unable to deal with sports or wildlife but rather the spacing and accuracey of the AF points.  If a new high resolution FF body had an AF system with say 20ish AF points spread over the same area as the pro system I'm guessing alot of people would be more than happy with it.

Yes, the placing does make them less useful -- they are all pretty close to the middle. They also don't work very well besides the center point.

The part I don't really get though is how someone taking portraits, street, family or wedding pictures would take advantage over the enhanced AF capabilities. You can manually select an AF point with the joystick but the interface is a bit cumbersome -- I find focus and recompose more convenient (though maybe that's because I'm more proficient to focus and recompose). So the advantage is reduced to being able to avoid inaccuracy that may be introduced by focus and recompose -- a plus, but not a make-or-break.

This leaves me suspecting that most of the AF complainers are either expecting to bang away on the shutter button with all points enabled and have the camera choose what to focus on (at which point AF is pretty much guaranteed to have limited accuracy, unless camera can read your mind)  or are simply complaining for the sake of complaining.
« Last Edit: May 04, 2012, 06:43:12 PM by elflord »

moreorless

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Re: More Full Frame Cameras on the 2012 Horizon? [CR2/CR1]
« Reply #158 on: May 04, 2012, 07:14:28 PM »
OK, I buy that the market liked the extra megapixels. However, I maintain that if autofocus was terribly important, they had several other options. Apparently, autofocus took a back seat not only to megapixels, also to sensor size, and cost (you could have had both for a little more money).

Yes I wouldnt disagree there, I think it was more a case of Canon putting the cash into the sensor rather than "crippling" the AF.

Quote
Yes, the placing does make them less useful -- they are all pretty close to the middle. They also don't work very well besides the center point.

The part I don't really get though is how someone taking portraits, street, family or wedding pictures would take advantage over the enhanced AF capabilities. You can manually select an AF point with the joystick but the interface is a bit cumbersome -- I find focus and recompose more convenient (though maybe that's because I'm more proficient to focus and recompose). So the advantage is reduced to being able to avoid inaccuracy that may be introduced by focus and recompose -- a plus, but not a make-or-break.

This leaves me suspecting that most of the AF complainers are either expecting to bang away on the shutter button with all points enabled and have the camera choose what to focus on (at which point AF is pretty much guaranteed to have limited accuracy, unless camera can read your mind)  or are simply complaining for the sake of complaining.

Its not something that cannot be worked around in many situations I agree but if a rival camera is offering a superior sensor AND better AF why put yourself though that?

I do think that the D800 once again prooves that the largest market at FF is for high resolution, espeically with amatures. If Canon could offer a high resolution sensor at a lower price they could perhaps get away with using the 5D AF again although as I said I think a slightly upgraded system with more widely spaced points would be a better option.

40 MP sensor.
5D3 body.
100% viewfinder.
20ish point AF more widly spaced.
Single card slot.
3 FPS.

Offer that for $500 less than the D800 and I think it would potentially sell very well.

plutonium10

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Re: More Full Frame Cameras on the 2012 Horizon? [CR2/CR1]
« Reply #159 on: May 04, 2012, 07:40:57 PM »
40 MP sensor.
5D3 body.
100% viewfinder.
20ish point AF more widly spaced.
Single card slot.
3 FPS.

Offer that for $500 less than the D800 and I think it would potentially sell very well.

If they had the tech for a $2500 camera with a high-performance 40mp sensor, they would have put something a little more special than a slightly improved 5D II sensor in the 5D III.
« Last Edit: May 04, 2012, 07:45:38 PM by plutonium10 »
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briansquibb

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Re: More Full Frame Cameras on the 2012 Horizon? [CR2/CR1]
« Reply #160 on: May 04, 2012, 07:47:04 PM »
40 MP sensor.
5D3 body.
100% viewfinder.
20ish point AF more widly spaced.
Single card slot.
3 FPS.

Offer that for $500 less than the D800 and I think it would potentially sell very well.

If they had the tech for a $2500 camera with a high-performance 40mp sensor, they would have put something a little more special than a slightly improved 5D II sensor in the 5D III.

A slightly improved 5DII sensor in the 5DIII?

I think you need to do your homework before you make statements like that


plutonium10

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Re: More Full Frame Cameras on the 2012 Horizon? [CR2/CR1]
« Reply #161 on: May 04, 2012, 07:53:48 PM »
40 MP sensor.
5D3 body.
100% viewfinder.
20ish point AF more widly spaced.
Single card slot.
3 FPS.

Offer that for $500 less than the D800 and I think it would potentially sell very well.

If they had the tech for a $2500 camera with a high-performance 40mp sensor, they would have put something a little more special than a slightly improved 5D II sensor in the 5D III.

A slightly improved 5DII sensor in the 5DIII?

I think you need to do your homework before you make statements like that

Well yeah, maybe that was badly worded. But compared to the evolution from D700 to D800, the 5D III's improvements do seem quite lack-luster, especially in DR.
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briansquibb

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Re: More Full Frame Cameras on the 2012 Horizon? [CR2/CR1]
« Reply #162 on: May 04, 2012, 08:05:08 PM »
Well yeah, maybe that was badly worded. But compared to the evolution from D700 to D800, the 5D III's improvements do seem quite lack-luster, especially in DR.

I think you are a victim of the DR brainwashing brigade.

I suspect you also need to look at the specs of the D700 and D800 when you will find the D800 is not in the same market segment as the D700

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Re: More Full Frame Cameras on the 2012 Horizon? [CR2/CR1]
« Reply #162 on: May 04, 2012, 08:05:08 PM »

plutonium10

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Re: More Full Frame Cameras on the 2012 Horizon? [CR2/CR1]
« Reply #163 on: May 04, 2012, 08:27:59 PM »
I had recently seen samples of the DR the D800 can produce on several websites and it seems to be a fair improvement over the 5D III. Has DxO been giving me the wrong ideas?

... And I was under the impression that the D700 competed directly with the 5D II and was very much in the same market segment. Is this not the case?
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briansquibb

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Re: More Full Frame Cameras on the 2012 Horizon? [CR2/CR1]
« Reply #164 on: May 04, 2012, 08:57:29 PM »
I had recently seen samples of the DR the D800 can produce on several websites and it seems to be a fair improvement over the 5D III. Has DxO been giving me the wrong ideas?

... And I was under the impression that the D700 competed directly with the 5D II and was very much in the same market segment. Is this not the case?

DxO testing is debatable

D700 is 12mp only


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Re: More Full Frame Cameras on the 2012 Horizon? [CR2/CR1]
« Reply #164 on: May 04, 2012, 08:57:29 PM »