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Author Topic: Odds & Ends - Mirrorless [CR1]  (Read 8441 times)

Dylan777

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Re: Odds & Ends - Mirrorless [CR1]
« Reply #15 on: June 01, 2012, 04:59:19 PM »
It is full frame or go home.
Comeon now Canon, you can't let Leica be the only brand with a full frame mirrorless.  :P

+1...mirrorless FF & works with current "L" lenses, I'll take one  ;)
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Re: Odds & Ends - Mirrorless [CR1]
« Reply #15 on: June 01, 2012, 04:59:19 PM »

Daniel Flather

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Re: Odds & Ends - Mirrorless [CR1]
« Reply #16 on: June 01, 2012, 05:07:43 PM »
It is full frame or go home.
Comeon now Canon, you can't let Leica be the only brand with a full frame mirrorless.  :P

+1...mirrorless FF & works with current "L" lenses, I'll take one  ;)
+2
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Rocky

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Re: Odds & Ends - Mirrorless [CR1]
« Reply #17 on: June 01, 2012, 05:40:30 PM »
It will be interesting to see what Canon can do (or will do) with the mirrorless.  There are so many suggestion (read it s demand) in this site: smaller size, reasonable priced, BIG sensor, small zooms etc. Unfortunately, they mutually exclusive. I am interested in seeing how fast is the AF or does it comes with MF and aview finder ( like the M9)?


The specs are not mutually exclusive:

1. SIZE - no problem
"FF" (36x24mm) can be packaged in a very compact and very high-quality camera without any problem.
example: 124.5 x 77.5 x 32 millimeters, sturdy metal body, weight only 13.405 oz./380.1g with batteries
http://www.cameraquest.com/cle.htm

2. LENS SIZE - no big problem
just look at M-mount lenses not only from Leica but also from Voigtlander and other manufacturers. Even a decent f/4 kit-zoom  could be made very compact and with decent optical quality.  As a matter of fact, no need to develop a new proprietary mount. Just take the patent-expired Leica M-mount and electrify it, using Canon pin layout and mountr-lens protocol. It would be backwards compatible with M-mount lenses  w/ manual focusing.

3. FAST and 100% ACCURATE AF - no problem
Just take the approach of the Nikon 1 hybrid AF sized to FF. Take the 5D 3 sensor, take 10.000 sensels out of it for in-sensor-plane Phase-Detect AF for ultrafast stage 1 "pre-focusing" and then hand over for stage 2: DIGIC 5+ powered, fast and 100% accurate Contrast AF. All back-/frontfocus issues with any lens will disappear. No need for microfocus-adjustment. 

4. VIEWFINDER - no big problem
Take the Fuji X1-Pro approach and make it REALLY RIGHT. Take the best available 3 Megapixel OLED plus parallax-corrected optical viewfinder. Users decide, whether they want to use optical, electronic or combination in a specific situation.

5. PRICE - no problem
same sensor, DIGIC, electronics and many other components from 5D 3 but minus the entire mirrorbox assembly (demanding very minute alignment = labor intensive) and minus prism. Therefore price should be somehat less, lets say 3 grand USD / Euro for starters.

Now, if I can think of this camera, Canon should be able to figure it out too and build it. :-)


Minolta is a fully mechanical camera. there is not a single motor in it. Digital camera needs multiple motor and  a relative large battery.  just look at the size of NEX7 or the Fuji Por 1. They are already bigger than the CLE and they are only APS-C sensor. You have also suggested to use the components from 5D. This will not be a small camera.
Leica lenses are"smaller" due to there is NO AF and NO electronically controlled apertute. Look at the 4/3 lenses, they are even bigger than the Leica lenses.
Nikon holds the patent right on their on sensor AF sensor. Do you think that they will allow any body to use it??
The only FF "mirrorless"exists is LEICA M9. It is a $9K camera. Let us look back into history. In the late 60's the price of the best Canon Range finder camera is about 80% of Leica M3. So if we strap the curve, A Canon M9 comparable mirror from Canon will be about $6k to $7K. Will you buy a 1D-X or the Mirrorless. Also Leica may be holding the offset micro lenses   pattern also. Event some Leica lense cannot be used in M9 due to incident angle concern.  If the FF mirrorless can be built so easily and cheaply,whay nobody is doing it???
I am not saying a good mirrorless cannot be done. It just have to be compromised and canot satisfy every body.
« Last Edit: June 01, 2012, 05:46:26 PM by Rocky »

c.d.embrey

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Re: Odds & Ends - Mirrorless [CR1]
« Reply #18 on: June 01, 2012, 06:30:03 PM »

 ... Leica lenses are"smaller" due to there is NO AF and NO electronically controlled apertute. Look at the 4/3 lenses, they are even bigger than the Leica lenses.

Reality has no place on a foto-forum ;)  ;)

Quote
The only FF "mirrorless"exists is LEICA M9. It is a $9K camera. Let us look back into history. In the late 60's the price of the best Canon Range finder camera is about 80% of Leica M3. So if we strap the curve, A Canon M9 comparable mirror from Canon will be about $6k to $7K. Will you buy a 1D-X or the Mirrorless.

The way Canon has been pricing things lately, I'd expect 90% to be closer to the truth :( :(

Quote
If the FF mirrorless can be built so easily and cheaply,whay nobody is doing it???

Sony fans are clamoring for a Full Frame NEX 9 too. But there doesn't seem to be a glimmer of hope there either.

J

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Re: Odds & Ends - Mirrorless [CR1]
« Reply #19 on: June 01, 2012, 07:11:17 PM »
The new Rebel should be in the EOS IX form factor. It would be 40mm shorter and 20mm thinner than the Rebel T3, a significant size savings.

It would still be an SLR, would still have the EF mount, but the introduction of a 40mm pancake would make a tad more sense...

maxxevv

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Re: Odds & Ends - Mirrorless [CR1]
« Reply #20 on: June 01, 2012, 10:41:27 PM »
I won't be too surprised if they came out with something like this: Canon A35 Datelux



http://www.canon.com/camera-museum/camera/film/data/1976-1985/1977_a35lux.html?lang=us&categ=crn&page=1976-1985&p=1

Its "FF" film and coincidentally had a 40mm f/2.8 fixed lens.  (should be very similar to the pancake 40mm to be rolled out ?? ) ...

Wild

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Re: Odds & Ends - Mirrorless [CR1]
« Reply #21 on: June 02, 2012, 01:36:20 AM »
It will be interesting to see what Canon can do (or will do) with the mirrorless.  There are so many suggestion (read it s demand) in this site: smaller size, reasonable priced, BIG sensor, small zooms etc. Unfortunately, they mutually exclusive. I am interested in seeing how fast is the AF or does it comes with MF and aview finder ( like the M9)?


The specs are not mutually exclusive:

1. SIZE - no problem
"FF" (36x24mm) can be packaged in a very compact and very high-quality camera without any problem.
example: 124.5 x 77.5 x 32 millimeters, sturdy metal body, weight only 13.405 oz./380.1g with batteries
http://www.cameraquest.com/cle.htm

2. LENS SIZE - no big problem
just look at M-mount lenses not only from Leica but also from Voigtlander and other manufacturers. Even a decent f/4 kit-zoom  could be made very compact and with decent optical quality.  As a matter of fact, no need to develop a new proprietary mount. Just take the patent-expired Leica M-mount and electrify it, using Canon pin layout and mountr-lens protocol. It would be backwards compatible with M-mount lenses  w/ manual focusing.

3. FAST and 100% ACCURATE AF - no problem
Just take the approach of the Nikon 1 hybrid AF sized to FF. Take the 5D 3 sensor, take 10.000 sensels out of it for in-sensor-plane Phase-Detect AF for ultrafast stage 1 "pre-focusing" and then hand over for stage 2: DIGIC 5+ powered, fast and 100% accurate Contrast AF. All back-/frontfocus issues with any lens will disappear. No need for microfocus-adjustment. 

4. VIEWFINDER - no big problem
Take the Fuji X1-Pro approach and make it REALLY RIGHT. Take the best available 3 Megapixel OLED plus parallax-corrected optical viewfinder. Users decide, whether they want to use optical, electronic or combination in a specific situation.

5. PRICE - no problem
same sensor, DIGIC, electronics and many other components from 5D 3 but minus the entire mirrorbox assembly (demanding very minute alignment = labor intensive) and minus prism. Therefore price should be somehat less, lets say 3 grand USD / Euro for starters.

Now, if I can think of this camera, Canon should be able to figure it out too and build it. :-)



Take my money right now.

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Re: Odds & Ends - Mirrorless [CR1]
« Reply #21 on: June 02, 2012, 01:36:20 AM »

mb66energy

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Re: Odds & Ends - Mirrorless [CR1]
« Reply #22 on: June 02, 2012, 03:23:57 AM »

[...]

The only FF "mirrorless"exists is LEICA M9. It is a $9K camera. Let us look back into history. In the late 60's the price of the best Canon Range finder camera is about 80% of Leica M3. So if we strap the curve, A Canon M9 comparable mirror from Canon will be about $6k to $7K. Will you buy a 1D-X or the Mirrorless. Also Leica may be holding the offset micro lenses   pattern also. Event some Leica lense cannot be used in M9 due to incident angle concern.  If the FF mirrorless can be built so easily and cheaply,whay nobody is doing it???
I am not saying a good mirrorless cannot be done. It just have to be compromised and canot satisfy every body.

IMO a full frame mirrorless might be offered by canon for roughly 1200 Euro/$ if based on 5D Mark II components: It's just a exercise in removing non-needed parts:
Mirrorbox with mechanics and motor, pentaprism and related optics, phase detect AF with mechanics.

This reduces the need to align different delicate optical parts with an internal chassis - can be reduced to "hold sensor and lens flange".

Add a 1024x768 pixel EVF with good optics and you will have a 1200 Euro/$ FF mirrorless camera.

IMHO this camera might not be attractive enough to the typical FF user who needs fps and fast AF. On the other side for landscape, macro photographers and videographers such a system might be extremely interesting.

Your argument with the offset microlenses is a good one but I think it is just important for Leica because they never had a mirror box for their M-series cameras and lenses - lens back elements have a shorter distance to the sensor and the incident angles are larger (compared to a perpendicular axis of the sensor).
EF lenses are designed to bend the light at smaller angles - to allow the mirrorbox gap between last lense element and sensor. Again IMHO: This should avoid to use offset microlenses on the sensor.

I agree with you that comparable compactness (with 35mm film) is not possible due to the need for batteries and other stuff. Additionally the waste heat of the sensor hast to be spreaded - perhaps a special problem for a FF mirrorless of compact size to keep the sensor at low noise levels. Camera size helps here a lot: To give enough material to spread the heat and enough surface to remove it from the camera body!

Best - Michael
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AvTvM

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Re: Odds & Ends - Mirrorless [CR1]
« Reply #23 on: June 02, 2012, 06:01:56 AM »
...
Digital camera needs multiple motor and  a relative large battery.  just look at the size of NEX7 or the Fuji Por 1. They are already bigger than the CLE and they are only APS-C sensor. You have also suggested to use the components from 5D. This will not be a small camera.
Leica lenses are"smaller" due to there is NO AF and NO electronically controlled apertute. Look at the 4/3 lenses, they are even bigger than the Leica lenses.
Nikon holds the patent right on their on sensor AF sensor. Do you think that they will allow any body to use it??
...
 If the FF mirrorless can be built so easily and cheaply,whay nobody is doing it???
I am not saying a good mirrorless cannot be done. It just have to be compromised and canot satisfy every body.

What "motors?" ... no film to be transported in digicams. I want them to do away with the mechanical shutter too ... Nikon had an electronic shutter already way back in the D70. No noise, vno vibration, no bulky shutter mechanism unit and best of all: native X-Sync all the way up to 1/8000s!  :-)

NEX-7 body size would also be perfectly fine with me. ;-)

And if the body/chassis is made from solid magnesium alloy or even more advanced "liquidmetal" (TitanAl-alloy), proper heat dissipation away from FF sensor is no problem either.

Powerful DIGIC + electronic components are no issue either and a LP-E6 battery [as in  5D2,3 and 7D] is not overly large ... it would hold enough juice to power fast hybrid AF, metering, hybrid viewfinder and back LCD and still be small enough to fit into a compact mirorless camera body. It would also allow many Canonites to use only one type of battery and charger, which would be very welcome. :-)

As far as lens size is concerned: electronic aperture without manual aperture ring takes less space and allows for more compact lenses. Ring-USM AF units are also extremely compact - unless we talk about big-ass super-teles with really large and heavy lens elements. If it was up to me I would make the zoom-lenses for the new mirrorless without focus ring and without manual focus. 99% of users will not miss ist, if the AF is up to speed. :-)
Those who prefer to manually focus may use their existing M-mount lenses.

Hybrid-AF ... with in-sensor-plane phase-detect AF - Nikon for sure holds some patents there, but I doubt they got it totally locked up. Canon hopefully also has patented some of their "ideas" in that direction.

After all, even LPA's monopolistic patent-reinforced hold on remote radio-flash-triggers did not last forever ... and had gave way to competitive solutions as in Canon's new 600EX-RT flashes. :-)

Sith Zombie

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Re: Odds & Ends - Mirrorless [CR1]
« Reply #24 on: June 02, 2012, 09:51:13 AM »
I expect a totally mediocre and underwhelming "G1X with a lens mount" ...
same unnecessary 4:3 mini-sensor plus a mediocre EVF and 3 utterly unexciting, dark but still not very compact kit-lenses along the lines of:
- 18-55/f3.5-5.6 equivalent kit-lens
- 55-250/f4.5-5.6 equivalent tele-zoom
- plus something like a boring 40/2.8 pancake macro   
BUT certainly prices will be at least 50% higher than for a corresponding Rebel and EF-S lenses.
It is so very predictable and irksome.

As depressing and negative your prediction is, I think you've pretty much nailed it!

infared

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Re: Odds & Ends - Mirrorless [CR1]
« Reply #25 on: June 02, 2012, 11:00:09 AM »
Who cares what Canon does....I own 2 MFT cameras and 9 lenses..most of them tiny, fast f/stop primes.  Canon will not touch that segment of the market...just like Nikon....and HEY ....I am taking great shots right now with my cameras.  I have a Canon FF...and mirrorless is not a replacement (yet!)......but I am sure that Canon will just wade in the low end of the pool..and not take the dive. Oh...and the price will be stupid.
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Rocky

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Re: Odds & Ends - Mirrorless [CR1]
« Reply #26 on: June 02, 2012, 01:28:12 PM »

What "motors?" ... no film to be transported in digicams. I want them to do away with the mechanical shutter too ... Nikon had an electronic shutter already way back in the D70. No noise, vno vibration, no bulky shutter mechanism unit and best of all: native X-Sync all the way up to 1/8000s!  :-)

NEX-7 body size would also be perfectly fine with me. ;-)

And if the body/chassis is made from solid magnesium alloy or even more advanced "liquidmetal" (TitanAl-alloy), proper heat dissipation away from FF sensor is no problem either.

Powerful DIGIC + electronic components are no issue either and a LP-E6 battery [as in  5D2,3 and 7D] is not overly large ... it would hold enough juice to power fast hybrid AF, metering, hybrid viewfinder and back LCD and still be small enough to fit into a compact mirorless camera body. It would also allow many Canonites to use only one type of battery and charger, which would be very welcome. :-)

As far as lens size is concerned: electronic aperture without manual aperture ring takes less space and allows for more compact lenses. Ring-USM AF units are also extremely compact - unless we talk about big-ass super-teles with really large and heavy lens elements. If it was up to me I would make the zoom-lenses for the new mirrorless without focus ring and without manual focus. 99% of users will not miss ist, if the AF is up to speed. :-)
Those who prefer to manually focus may use their existing M-mount lenses.

Hybrid-AF ... with in-sensor-plane phase-detect AF - Nikon for sure holds some patents there, but I doubt they got it totally locked up. Canon hopefully also has patented some of their "ideas" in that direction.

After all, even LPA's monopolistic patent-reinforced hold on remote radio-flash-triggers did not last forever ... and had gave way to competitive solutions as in Canon's new 600EX-RT flashes. :-)
Lets get the fact straight. Nikon D70 is  an electromagnetic mechcanically controlled vertical travel shutter that synchronized up to 1/500 sec. This is from the Nikon website.  Also NOBOBY have the right mind will expose the sensor in  an interchangable lens camera to collect dust. Canon DSLR shutter are motor driven, shutter curtain cannot run by itself.
Nex 7 is an APS-C sensor. If a FF is based on it, it will  be at least 1/2 inch longer and 1/3 in taller. May be even more than that.
Look at the Leica 35mm f2.0 and the canon 35mm f 2.0. You can see a big size difference. Electronic controlled aperture and USM make a lens smaller?? That is a fairy tale.

Let me restate my position:
1. The Canon mirrorless will be a compromise. it will not satisfy everybody.
2. If FF mirrorless is so easily done, why there is only one FF mirrorless., M9 by Leica. Are Canon, Nikon, Sony, Pentax all dummies???
3. I want a FF mirroless also . But it is and  will be either out of my reach or with features that I do not like.
4. What I really want is a reasonable priced Copy of M9, I would even be happy with a reasonable priced copy of M8. Both must be with M mount.
« Last Edit: June 02, 2012, 02:21:41 PM by Rocky »

Ellen Schmidtee

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Re: Odds & Ends - Mirrorless [CR1]
« Reply #27 on: June 02, 2012, 01:36:36 PM »
2. LENS SIZE - no big problem
just look at M-mount lenses not only from Leica but also from Voigtlander and other manufacturers. Even a decent f/4 kit-zoom  could be made very compact and with decent optical quality.  As a matter of fact, no need to develop a new proprietary mount. Just take the patent-expired Leica M-mount and electrify it, using Canon pin layout and mountr-lens protocol. It would be backwards compatible with M-mount lenses  w/ manual focusing.

So the adapter required to connect an EF[-S] lens to the mirrorless camera would be an extension tube with contacts?

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Re: Odds & Ends - Mirrorless [CR1]
« Reply #27 on: June 02, 2012, 01:36:36 PM »

itsnotmeyouknow

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Re: Odds & Ends - Mirrorless [CR1]
« Reply #28 on: June 02, 2012, 02:08:07 PM »

What "motors?" ... no film to be transported in digicams. I want them to do away with the mechanical shutter too ... Nikon had an electronic shutter already way back in the D70. No noise, vno vibration, no bulky shutter mechanism unit and best of all: native X-Sync all the way up to 1/8000s!  :-)

NEX-7 body size would also be perfectly fine with me. ;-)

And if the body/chassis is made from solid magnesium alloy or even more advanced "liquidmetal" (TitanAl-alloy), proper heat dissipation away from FF sensor is no problem either.

Powerful DIGIC + electronic components are no issue either and a LP-E6 battery [as in  5D2,3 and 7D] is not overly large ... it would hold enough juice to power fast hybrid AF, metering, hybrid viewfinder and back LCD and still be small enough to fit into a compact mirorless camera body. It would also allow many Canonites to use only one type of battery and charger, which would be very welcome. :-)

As far as lens size is concerned: electronic aperture without manual aperture ring takes less space and allows for more compact lenses. Ring-USM AF units are also extremely compact - unless we talk about big-ass super-teles with really large and heavy lens elements. If it was up to me I would make the zoom-lenses for the new mirrorless without focus ring and without manual focus. 99% of users will not miss ist, if the AF is up to speed. :-)
Those who prefer to manually focus may use their existing M-mount lenses.

Hybrid-AF ... with in-sensor-plane phase-detect AF - Nikon for sure holds some patents there, but I doubt they got it totally locked up. Canon hopefully also has patented some of their "ideas" in that direction.

After all, even LPA's monopolistic patent-reinforced hold on remote radio-flash-triggers did not last forever ... and had gave way to competitive solutions as in Canon's new 600EX-RT flashes. :-)
Lets get the fact straight. Nikon D70 is  an electromagnetic mechcanically controlled vertical travel shutter that synchronized up to 1/500 sec. This is from the Nikon website.  Also NOBOBY have the right mind will expose the sensor in  an interchangable lens camera to coolect dust. Canon DSLR shutter are motor driven, shutter curtain cannot run by itself.
Nex 7 is an APS-C sensor. If a FF is based on it, it will  be at least 1/2 inch longer and 1/3 in taller. May be even more than that.
Look at the Leica 35mm f2.0 and the canon 25mm f 2.0. You can see a big size difference. Electronic controlled aperture and USM make a lens smaller?? That is a fairy tail.

Let me restate my position:
1. The Canon mirrorless will be a compromise. it will not satisfy everybody.
2. If FF mirrorless is so easily done, why there is only one FF mirrorless., M9 by Leica. Are Canon, Nikon, Sony, Pentax all dummies???
3. I want a FF mirroless also . But it is and  will be either out of my reach or with features that I do not like.
4. What I really want is a reasonable priced Copy of M9, I would even be happy with a reasonable priced copy of M8. Both must be with M mount.
I very much doubt that you will se a M0/8 copy from Canon.  A small FF camera would be amazing, but I don't see it happening this year or next.  Quite prepared to be surprised though

Rocky

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Re: Odds & Ends - Mirrorless [CR1]
« Reply #29 on: June 02, 2012, 03:16:25 PM »
I very much doubt that you will se a M0/8 copy from Canon.  A small FF camera would be amazing, but I don't see it happening this year or next.  Quite prepared to be surprised though

It does not hurt to have a dream or hope.

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Re: Odds & Ends - Mirrorless [CR1]
« Reply #29 on: June 02, 2012, 03:16:25 PM »