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Author Topic: Canon EOS-1D X Manual Posted  (Read 14887 times)

sublime LightWorks

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Re: Canon EOS-1D X Manual Posted
« Reply #60 on: June 13, 2012, 11:14:21 AM »
Anyone saw this?
I took it off the Canon USE update on the AF system.

With the EOS 5D Mark III, a less-complex 63-zone metering system is used, and this is not linked to the AF system for helping with Automatic AF point selection. Both cameras have a separate processor dedicated to AF calculation tasks, such as AI Servo AF focus-tracking, in addition to the DIGIC 4 processor used by the EOS-1D X.

I noticed it said BOTH cameras have a seperate processor dedicated to AF…Really? I know the 1DX has a Digic4..nit the 5D3 also has a dedicated processor for AF? I think not ya? Just 1 Digic5+for everything am i right?


Incorrect.  Both the 5D3 and the 1DX have identical processors for the AF that are separate from the Digic5+.  This is documented in multiple sources and in interviews with Chuck Westfall of Canon.

The 1DX has a dedicated Digic4 for it's meter and those advanced features, it is NOT used for the AF system per se, but does process the metering info for the AF system.  The dual Digic5+ processors are handling the rest of the work.

http://blog.planet5d.com/2012/03/questions-answered-for-the-canon-eos-5d-mark-iii-hdmi-video/

Quote
In the preview meeting, Chuck briefly mentioned something about a “dedicated AF microprocessor” – is that a Digic 4 like on the Canon EOS-1D X?
CW: The DIGIC 4 in the 1D X is used for that camera’s 100,000 pixel RGB metering sensor. It is not a dedicated AF microprocessor. Both the 1D X and the 5D Mark III use dedicated AF microprocessors; these AF microprocessors are not DIGIC chips.



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Re: Canon EOS-1D X Manual Posted
« Reply #60 on: June 13, 2012, 11:14:21 AM »

spinworkxroy

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Re: Canon EOS-1D X Manual Posted
« Reply #61 on: June 13, 2012, 12:02:24 PM »
Incorrect.  Both the 5D3 and the 1DX have identical processors for the AF that are separate from the Digic5+.  This is documented in multiple sources and in interviews with Chuck Westfall of Canon.


Ah…thanks for the info..so in theory, both cameras should AF as fast with the same processor handling AF…except the X has a high volt to make the lens move faster that's all..

clicstudio

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More than half of the manual is identical to 5D III manual...
« Reply #62 on: June 13, 2012, 02:02:55 PM »
 :o
Canon 1D X, Canon 24-70 F2.8L II,  Canon SpeedLite 600 EX-RT, 5x Paul C. Buff Einstein Flashes with Pocket Wizard PowerMC2's, Pocket Wizard Mini-TT1, Pocket Wizard AC3.

SDsc0rch

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Re: Canon EOS-1D X Manual Posted
« Reply #63 on: June 13, 2012, 11:00:17 PM »
in answer to the "why" f8 is a limiting aperture, i think i found a satisfactory answer on canon's website

it gets into some basic concepts of how those AF sensors work - pretty interesting actually

basically, the wider the aperture, the more precise your focus - alternatively, the smaller the aperture, the less precision possible

basically, they had to make a design decision - do they tolerate softer images, or stick to their guns and ensure higher quality photos?


these paragraphs are from page 2...

Quote
Where does the term "high precision" come into play? The farther apart the two rows of pixels are, the more finely the system can adjust the focus, and the more accuracy it can apply to determining whether focus is "close" or "dead-on". Slight deviations in where the twin beams are focused, if they are off-center, now can be measured in finer increments. Canon EOS SLRs with high-precision AF sensors simply move the pairs of sensors much farther apart, and accordingly, the AF information can be more finely broken-down and reacted to. So why not simply move all the line sensors farther apart? There's a limit, and that is the widest aperture of the lenses a shooter might use. To adequately cover the entire AF sensor array, every AF sensor requires lenses (or a lens + tele extender combination) that's a certain f/stop or wider in order to assure proper AF operation. Standard-precision AF sensors, positioned relatively closely, can get by with lenses f/5.6 or faster. This is an advantage in some ways, because nearly all AF lenses can be used without limitations.

But high-precision AF sensors have traditionally required lenses with f/2.8 or faster apertures, since each high-precision AF line pair is farther apart, and requires a physically larger "cone of light" coming into the AF system to fully cover the rows of pixels. When a lens slower than f/2.8 is used, those line pairs no longer function, and (usually) the camera reverts to another pair of standard-precision AF sensors. But high-precision AF sensors provide from 2x to 3x the AF accuracy at the sensor of more traditional designs, and that accuracy kicks-in when a wide-aperture lens is mounted. In other words, high-precision becomes available when it's needed most – when lenses with very narrow depth-of-field are mounted and being focused.


http://learn.usa.canon.com/resources/articles/2011/1dx_af_precision_crosstype_article.shtml


very interesting article - you should give it a read - they explain it quite well

before this thread though, i had no idea how AF worked
« Last Edit: June 13, 2012, 11:05:58 PM by SDsc0rch »

neuroanatomist

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Re: Canon EOS-1D X Manual Posted
« Reply #64 on: June 13, 2012, 11:05:16 PM »
EOS 1D X, EOS M, and lots of lenses
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LetTheRightLensIn

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Re: Canon EOS-1D X Manual Posted
« Reply #65 on: June 14, 2012, 03:49:03 AM »
Page.120.

The one thing that dissapoints me with the 1DX is the buffer size and the number of RAW frames possible to store during a high burst.
The 35 frames takes only 3seconds, 3 !!!!! to fill the buffer..

Anyway, there seem to be something strange going on, since shooting m-RAW mode actually decreases the number of possible burts
 shots to 26, while shooting s-RAW mode increases the number to 39. I understand it takes some computing time to resize the RAW, but this will also happen while downsizine to s-RAW. Hence it is strange that the number of frames possible during m-RAW is "only" 26,
which is a ridicilously small number which you will reach within 1.5sec !!  Why could not Canon install a 3 x bigger buffer when the rest
of the camera is built for speed?? (shutter/cpu).  The D4 can shoot up to 3 times more frames than the 1DX.

I have tested the 1DX with the fastest memory card currently available on the planet (Lexar 128G 1000x Pro UDMA7 150/150MBps),
and the buffer was still full after 35frames continious shooting.

Too bad Canon!! :(

I can get 35 RAW frames (at ISO 100, lens cap on to minimize file size) with a Lexar 1000x 32GB card on a 5D3 for 5.8s of continuous 6fps. (at ISO3200 with a real image it does drop a lot, down to 20 frames or 3.3s; Canon usually rates buffer at worst case so they might mean 35 RAWs at highest ISO which might mean quite a few more at lower ISOs maybe 50????)


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Re: Canon EOS-1D X Manual Posted
« Reply #66 on: June 14, 2012, 03:59:55 AM »

People are still comparing the 5D MK III to the 1DX, they are completely different monsters. In my testing I saw only a little more than 1 stop improvement in high ISO with the 5D3 over the 5D2. I've downloaded and played with several 1DX files and they look absolutely phenomenal. The 1DX probably has at least a 3-stop advantage over the 5D2.

You do realize that the 1DX would have to violate the laws of physics to be 3 stops better SNR than the 5D2?

And the 5D3 is about almost 2/3rds of a stop better SNR than the 5D2 (and only about 1/3 stop better less if you unfairly compare them at the same ISOs (5D3 applies more gain for each ISO than the 5D2)).

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Re: Canon EOS-1D X Manual Posted
« Reply #66 on: June 14, 2012, 03:59:55 AM »

LetTheRightLensIn

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Re: Canon EOS-1D X Manual Posted
« Reply #67 on: June 14, 2012, 04:07:30 AM »

1) Ron's numbers are wrong, sadly, check my proof video I posted in this thread. I have used the fastest memory card available, Lexar 128GB CF UDMA7 Pro, which I use daily with my 5D3. The 5D3 Canon also claim to be able to fully utilize any UDMA7 card with up to 167MB/s, which I have found to be wrong.
The 5D3 is capable of almost 100MB/s, about the same as the D4. (tested with speeds which allowed for continous shooting without the buffer stopping)

2) I am capable of shooting 33-34 RAW images at 6fps on my 5D3 with the Lexar UDMA7 card before buffer stops.

3) Seem like I am not entirely correct on the D4, (although I have read several places it could go higher), this guy is achieving 6-7 seconds continous shooting until buffer is full (at 05:45), this should mean 60-70 RAW files:
XQD + Nikon D4 full speed test

I have also done extensive speed testing on my own with the 5D3, 5D2, the D4, D800 and D800E, all with the Lexar 128GB UDMA7 CF Pro 1000x, since I work a lot with stop motion video in the dark, and need the cameras to be able to shoot as fast as possible without the buffer stopping. The 5D3 has about the same write speed as the D4. IMO the D4 is actually slightly disappointing in its computing power, taking into account its fast shutter mechanics. Still its buffer seem to be larger than the 1DX, since RAW files of D4 is actually 33MB compared to 28 on the 1DX.

With the price tag, and the shutter speed and the computing power availbale on the 1DX, I have to say I it is  disappointing Canon did not implement a bigger buffer, given also how cheap flash ram is these days, even if it might be enough for many people.

For my type of work, I am guessing the 1DX will still outperform the D4 (shooting as fast as possible without the buffer interfering), but thats not the only point. Even if my type of work is not what most people do, I also do regular work, such as wildlife and bird photography (BIF), and what If I am shooting an eagle diving down for a fish? This is a moment which could take much more than 3 seconds, sometimes 7-8seconds. But then the buffer on the 1DX is full..  :(

And if I have to turn down the shooting speed of the 1DX to not fill up the buffer, then what is the point of me spending 7000 dollars on the 1DX rather than just using my 5D3 ?


See, now you're going to make me go and buy a Lexar 1000x to get that 33-34 RAW on my 5D3.   8)

I'm assuming the 1Dx you had was a pre-production unit, so perhaps it's still got a firmware update to go before it's at full speed. (Maybe).

It's also kind of weird that the D4 being 16Mpix has a larger RAW file than an 18Mpix 1Dx or a 22Mpix 5D3????

And I totally agree with you on the fact that RAM is cheap....it would be next to nothing to implement a RAW buffer of 60 to 96 RAW images for a 5-8 second burst buffer.


Here is some more info on a few scenarios:

"The Lexar 1000x honestly didn't really do any better than a Sandisk Extreme Pro 90MB/s card with a 5D2 or 7D (or surely xxD) cam but with the 5D3.... WOW. And it lets the 5D3 deliver best in class buffer and longer contrinuous shooting times than either the 5D2 or 7D.

A few numbers (all tests at 1/800th shutter, no IS, no AF, no NR or any other in cam jpg special processing options, max continuous drive mode selected (7D pointed at a bright light so as to maintain max frame rate)) with the raw number being number of shots before you hear it slow down shooting and timed number is the continuous time you could shoot non-stop at the camera's max frame rate (derived by a simple frames/max fps of camera):

Test 1 (lens cap on or super underexposed near black frames (i.e. with requiring minimum for storage) at ISO100 on 5D3):

14 shots with a slow Lexar 16GB 200x card
17 shots with a 30MB/s SanDisk Extreme III 8GB card
20 shots (3.3s) with a 32GB SanDisk Extreme Pro 90GB/s card
35 shots (5.8s) with a 32GB Lexar 1000x card (whoa! 35! vs 20! 5.8s of continuous shooting vs only 3.3s!)

(so the Lexar 1000x makes a surprisingly large difference on the 5D3 and is well worth the $ if you seriously shoot action with the 5D3, do note that the 16GB 1000x card is said to be slower than the 32GB and larger 1000x cards so the advantage may be less if you go for the 16GB size; with this speed card the 5D3 continuous shooting time easily beats the 5D2 and 7D)

Test 2 (as above but on a 5D2):
16 shots (4.1s) with a SanDisk Extreme Pro 90MB/s card
17 shots (4.3s) with a Lexar 32GB 1000x card

(so the extra $ for the Lexar 1000x makes no difference on a 5D2; with this speed card the 5D3 actually lets you shoot continuously for less long than the 5D2 or 7D)

Test 3 (as above but on a 7D):
29 shots (3.7s) with a SanDisk Extreme Pro 90MB/s card
28 shots (3.5s) with a Lexar 32GB 1000x card

(so the extra $ for the Lexar 1000x makes no difference on a 7D, same result)

Test 4 (these have an actual image being shot and the ISOs are higher so each RAW file is larger, the performance drops considerably, especially above ISO800 and NOTE that the numbers will vary depending upon the scene shot as different scenes and exposures will produce different file sizes and any given scenario may bump all the numbers noticeably up or down; all are on the Lexar 32GB 1000x card):

ISO3200 5D3 - 20 shots (3.3s) - a big drop from the 35 for ISO100 black frame
ISO1600 5D3 - 24 shots (4s)
ISO800 5D3 - 30 shots (5s)

Test 5 (as above only this time a SanDisk Extreme Pro 90MB/s card was used in all cases):

ISO3200 5D3 - 14 shots (2.3s)
ISO1600 5D3 - 20 shots (3.3s)
ISO800 5D3 - 22 shots (3.7s)

Test 6 (as above only this time a SanDisk Extreme III 30MB/s card was used):
ISO800 5D3 - 15 shots (2.5s)

So yeah for most Canon cameras the Lexar 1000x will not be worth the money at all (unless you are want to pay that much for faster transfer speed to your computer and your computer supports USB3 and you have a USB3 card read that also takes full UDMA 7 advantage) but for the 5D3 wow if you are serious about shooting action and dont want to be saddled with a shorter shooting time buffer than the old 5D2 or 7D then get the Lexar 1000x, suddenly you actually can shoot for longer times non-stop than with the 5D2 or 7D and often by a large margin. So for the 5D3 and action it is well worth it."

LetTheRightLensIn

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Re: Canon EOS-1D X Manual Posted
« Reply #68 on: June 14, 2012, 04:11:17 AM »
Anyone saw this?
I took it off the Canon USE update on the AF system.

With the EOS 5D Mark III, a less-complex 63-zone metering system is used, and this is not linked to the AF system for helping with Automatic AF point selection. Both cameras have a separate processor dedicated to AF calculation tasks, such as AI Servo AF focus-tracking, in addition to the DIGIC 4 processor used by the EOS-1D X.

I noticed it said BOTH cameras have a seperate processor dedicated to AF…Really? I know the 1DX has a Digic4..nit the 5D3 also has a dedicated processor for AF? I think not ya? Just 1 Digic5+for everything am i right?

None of them have ever used digic for regular mode AF. It's always been either special dedicated AF CPU or sharing the general CPU that runs the basic body functions and camera controls.

The 1DX is the first to use it at all and it only uses the digic to image process the new fancy meter and to report that data to the AF system for the use all the points and automatically track mode.

sublime LightWorks

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Re: Canon EOS-1D X Manual Posted
« Reply #69 on: June 14, 2012, 11:47:04 AM »
Here is some more info on a few scenarios:

"The Lexar 1000x honestly didn't really do any better than a Sandisk Extreme Pro 90MB/s card with a 5D2 or 7D (or surely xxD) cam but with the 5D3.... WOW. And it lets the 5D3 deliver best in class buffer and longer contrinuous shooting times than either the 5D2 or 7D.

A few numbers (all tests at 1/800th shutter, no IS, no AF, no NR or any other in cam jpg special processing options, max continuous drive mode selected (7D pointed at a bright light so as to maintain max frame rate)) with the raw number being number of shots before you hear it slow down shooting and timed number is the continuous time you could shoot non-stop at the camera's max frame rate (derived by a simple frames/max fps of camera):

Test 1 (lens cap on or super underexposed near black frames (i.e. with requiring minimum for storage) at ISO100 on 5D3):

14 shots with a slow Lexar 16GB 200x card
17 shots with a 30MB/s SanDisk Extreme III 8GB card
20 shots (3.3s) with a 32GB SanDisk Extreme Pro 90GB/s card
35 shots (5.8s) with a 32GB Lexar 1000x card (whoa! 35! vs 20! 5.8s of continuous shooting vs only 3.3s!)

(so the Lexar 1000x makes a surprisingly large difference on the 5D3 and is well worth the $ if you seriously shoot action with the 5D3, do note that the 16GB 1000x card is said to be slower than the 32GB and larger 1000x cards so the advantage may be less if you go for the 16GB size; with this speed card the 5D3 continuous shooting time easily beats the 5D2 and 7D)

Test 2 (as above but on a 5D2):
16 shots (4.1s) with a SanDisk Extreme Pro 90MB/s card
17 shots (4.3s) with a Lexar 32GB 1000x card

(so the extra $ for the Lexar 1000x makes no difference on a 5D2; with this speed card the 5D3 actually lets you shoot continuously for less long than the 5D2 or 7D)

Test 3 (as above but on a 7D):
29 shots (3.7s) with a SanDisk Extreme Pro 90MB/s card
28 shots (3.5s) with a Lexar 32GB 1000x card

(so the extra $ for the Lexar 1000x makes no difference on a 7D, same result)

Test 4 (these have an actual image being shot and the ISOs are higher so each RAW file is larger, the performance drops considerably, especially above ISO800 and NOTE that the numbers will vary depending upon the scene shot as different scenes and exposures will produce different file sizes and any given scenario may bump all the numbers noticeably up or down; all are on the Lexar 32GB 1000x card):

ISO3200 5D3 - 20 shots (3.3s) - a big drop from the 35 for ISO100 black frame
ISO1600 5D3 - 24 shots (4s)
ISO800 5D3 - 30 shots (5s)

Test 5 (as above only this time a SanDisk Extreme Pro 90MB/s card was used in all cases):

ISO3200 5D3 - 14 shots (2.3s)
ISO1600 5D3 - 20 shots (3.3s)
ISO800 5D3 - 22 shots (3.7s)

Test 6 (as above only this time a SanDisk Extreme III 30MB/s card was used):
ISO800 5D3 - 15 shots (2.5s)

So yeah for most Canon cameras the Lexar 1000x will not be worth the money at all (unless you are want to pay that much for faster transfer speed to your computer and your computer supports USB3 and you have a USB3 card read that also takes full UDMA 7 advantage) but for the 5D3 wow if you are serious about shooting action and dont want to be saddled with a shorter shooting time buffer than the old 5D2 or 7D then get the Lexar 1000x, suddenly you actually can shoot for longer times non-stop than with the 5D2 or 7D and often by a large margin. So for the 5D3 and action it is well worth it."

That is a ton of useful data.  Your observations on the 5D3 using the SanDisk Extreme Pro (32GB in my case) match well to my own, 20-22 shots in the ISO 800 to 1600 range.

Since I do use the 5D3 in sports situations, the Lexar 1000+ 32GB makes sense for those conditions.  I ordered one this morning for that purpose, it should be enough for my typical work, and yes, the slower observed speed of the 16GB model does not make that an option.

Now, if Canon had not capped the damn SD card speed at around 30-40 MB/sec....because that will be a bottleneck if shooting RAW backups to the SD.  And it's pretty much a waste to get anything in the SanDisk Extreme Pro SD line as it's never going to reach the 95 MB/sec rate.  I picked up a 64GB one on sale for video work, but could have spent less than 1/2 that for a 45MB/sec one.

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Re: Canon EOS-1D X Manual Posted
« Reply #69 on: June 14, 2012, 11:47:04 AM »