APS-C DSLR lineup to get a shake up? [CR1]

[preppyak]

with mirrorless aps-c doing 20-30 fps now and becoming a real competition when it comes to focusing.... why buying a mirrorslapper?

i would love to see a high-end mirrorless aps-c with 20 fps and great focusing for BIF.

Because you had to use the word "becoming" and not "equal". When it matters at those frame rates, the mirrorless doesnt keep up.

I used Sony for a year or two, and between the menu system, the auto-focus, the terrible battery life, the mediocre screen, and the overheating, it was a nightmare to work with. They're fixing those issues, for sure, but the XXD line has just worked for the entire time I used it. First as the 60D, now as the 80D. I'd gladly take a 90D that costs a little more but has the 7D weather-sealing, some of the 7DII's auto-focus options, a bump to like 10fps, and having 4k.

And if Canon cant deliver that, I'll do what I've already been leaning towards and just move Panasonic.

 

[Aussie shooter]

Wouldn't you just get rid of the 77d section it was nonsensical anyway.

 

[flip314]

I love my 80D, but if it could gain the better focus spread of the 7dII while keeping things like the flippy screen and resolution, I'd be willing to consider a "90d"/"7dIII" hybrid for sure. The extra burst speed is nice too, but that's not usually something I need, and 7fps is already pretty good.

As it is now, the 80D/7dII already have a lot in common.

 

[espressino]

With the 77D series of cameras, it might indeed make sense to end the x0D/7D split and return to a single enthusiast/prosumer APS-C line. Canon bumped the 60D down a bit too much (no AFMA!) and the 70D and the 80D have crept back upward in the lineup. That would, however, mean that there wouldn't be a real response to the D500, which would make some people quite unhappy. The 80D does sit in a fairly awkward position right now, with only some fairly small things (+AFMA) separating it from the 77D.
If the amalgamation happens, I'd expect to see something like:

• At least partially mag alloy body (like the 6D)
• At least 6D2 level weather sealing
• A new AF system, maybe 2nd gen 65pt all-cross-type
• A moderate or no bump to resolution from 24Mpix
• Roughly 7D2 fps and buffer, or a little less (9fps?)
• Tilty-flippy touchscreen (which means more 80D-like ergonomics)
• GPS
• 4K, latest DPAF, etc.

I agree with your reasoning. There were some small things separating the 80D from the 77D (AFMA, in-raw-processing, minimum shutter speed) but the one advantage the 77D has is size: so if their amalgamation of lines meant that they put an updated-80D-capable camera into an 77D body (and, Canon being Canon, keeping one or two pro features from it, as well as one or two features aimed at amateurs (GPS via bluetooth, for example)), they could satisfy the often proclaimed demand for smaller bodies (and that even without everyone having to go mirrorless right. now...); similarly a slightly over-80D-sized body would get the 7D2 features you mention above. Would mean a bump in functionality for users and might even protect their prices.

 

[FoxbatB]

When Canon downgraded after the 50D, I stopped buying xxD line and my next camera was a 7D, but the Mark II was more action focused and didn’t have as good a general purpose sensor as the 80D. If they combine them back, I would hope for a true successor to the 50D and original 7D with their handling features: joystick, full LCD, heavy duty body but with 80D or better DPAF low light capable gp sensor.

And call it 10DX!

 

[FoxbatB]

I hope Canon will keeps some DSLRs models alive, otherwise I will switch to any other company that continues to build DSLRs (Pentax?). Mirrorless is not for me.

 

[deleteme]

Something like the D500 with some improvements! Can't be that hard to build this.

Might be hard to sell it though.
Canon really watches the sales data and are very aware of where their sales are coming from. I have no idea what volume a D500 type camera might generate but the fact that they are not moving with alacrity hints to me that they feel it isn't worth the effort.

 

[Ale_F]

Canon has taken the way of samsung in DSLR. Too many lines, including 2k and 4k.
I hope in the future to see 3 lines of APS-C DSLR:
Normal user 800D
Enthusiast 80D
Pro 7D

 

[deleteme]

I hope Canon will keeps some DSLRs models alive, otherwise I will switch to any other company that continues to build DSLRs (Pentax?). Mirrorless is not for me.

Most likely that Pentax will be the next company to exit the market.
Nikon would be the other company still making APS-C DSLRs. I hear their gear is OK.

 

[Lurker]

No, it's not the right way to treat customers.

Unless they want to move us to another brand.

If they move it mirrorless then I probably buy a 7DII on closeout or just live with 1 body. If they bring out a new DSLR then I buy that. I won't go mirrorless until they have a mature product line, in other words many years. For me photography is a money pit, I don't make my living do this. Please understand, I'm only speaking for myself and those that think like me. I'm not telling anyone what they should think or do.

 

[ShermN8r]

I have been waiting for a 7D Mark III, if it does not happen, I'll opt for the FujiFilm X-T3. I have a 70D, 7D, 5D Mark III & IV but I do not have 10 fps for sports and BIF. No 7D III, no more Canon camera body purchases.

 

[slclick]

It's so nice not to have a dog in the crop fight,...enjoy this y'all

 

[Ozarker]

Canon should keep making the 77D or 80D but the 7DIII should be an Eos-R camera. Canon need to start moving customers to mirrorless. An APS-C high frame rate , silent shutter , good focusing system , two cards would help push lens sales.
Then also have some entry level APS-C mirrorless Cameras and drop the M series which no longer have a real future.

hehehe. Why does a 7D III need to be an R camera? There is no APS-C R, yet. Probably won't ever be an APS-C R. Why does Canon need to start moving customers to mirrorless? Won't people just keep buying what meets their needs?

I'm gonna go out on a limb here and say that most DSLR/mirrorless owners don't change cameras very often. I think that is the turf of the type of people who frequent this website (and others). So if I am a regular Joe sitting in the garage with an 80D and a couple of lenses... how is Canon, or any other maker, supposed to convince me to switch when I already don't use what I have?

So what do you mean by saying, "Canon need to start moving customers to mirrorless?" Why?

This customer isn't interested in mirrorless at all.

 

[Antono Refa]

With camera sales going down, and Canon splitting their manufacturing into EOS, EOS-M, and EOS-R, this is the sound of inevitability.

E.g. as model sales go down, keeping maintenance going becomes a relatively bigger expense, even with shared parts between cameras.

 

[Talys]

With camera sales going down, and Canon splitting their manufacturing into EOS, EOS-M, and EOS-R, this is the sound of inevitability.

E.g. as model sales go down, keeping maintenance going becomes a relatively bigger expense, even with shared parts between cameras.

I think it's more that the models are too similar, especially as spec bumps make it so that the differentiators are less meaningful.

In my opinion, with the current high end APSC models being 77D, 80D and 7D2, I think the right move is to consolidate 80D/7D2 into a new "best APSC", and keep 77D.

It's a camera I'd seriously consider buying, only because 80D is still my go-to for a lot of (most?) tasks, even though I have R and 6DII. I really love everything about it.

 

[Hector1970]

hehehe. Why does a 7D III need to be an R camera? There is no APS-C R, yet. Probably won't ever be an APS-C R. Why does Canon need to start moving customers to mirrorless? Won't people just keep buying what meets their needs?

I'm gonna go out on a limb here and say that most DSLR/mirrorless owners don't change cameras very often. I think that is the turf of the type of people who frequent this website (and others). So if I am a regular Joe sitting in the garage with an 80D and a couple of lenses... how is Canon, or any other maker, supposed to convince me to switch when I already don't use what I have?

So what do you mean by saying, "Canon need to start moving customers to mirrorless?" Why?

This customer isn't interested in mirrorless at all.

Canon don’t make money from people who stick with gear they have. They need to sell new items to customers. They are the Eos R cameras and accompanying EOS R lens. An EOS-R APS-C would be compatible to the new EOS-R lens natively.
The M cameras are a dead end with different lens.

 

[Ozarker]

Canon don’t make money from people who stick with gear they have.

This was exactly my point. Most people do stick with the gear they have and then don't use what they have.

You said that Canon needs to move customers to mirrorless. My question to you is why or how? The real money spent on ILC cameras is in the accessories, not the camera body. I have a Canon DSLR, but just one. I also have about 40 lenses. My "L" glass could be used on an R body right now. So why don't I go buy an "R" body? Because the R body isn't going to produce photos that are enough better to justify it. My point is, DSLR or mirrorless, there is no earth shattering difference or reason to switch. Look at Sony: 14% market share and they've been on the mirrorless road for a long time.

Mirrorless is not the industry savior. There really is not anything special about it vs a DSLR. Canon just needs to do whatever Canon does to keep making money. I think (fantasy) that ILC sales will continue to decline. It isn't because of the cameras. It is a pop culture shift in what people value and how that is expressed. People now have their phone, TV, internet, camera and the Library of Congress in their back pocket. They don't want a backpack full of stuff. Photos? All on the phone and they are happy with low res tiny photos.

I've done a couple of recent shoots. Neither client cares about the hi res large file images I can provide. "Instagram and Facebook size is good enough."

Constantly trying to win the mega-pixel war doesn't help either. Why would a person purchase a 100mp camera (non-pro) that isn't going to use the photos for anything other than the web?

I think a large number of people probably see ILC's as too expensive, too bulky, too complicated, and a waste of time and money. Of course, I think the same thing about Bass Boats.

When's the last time anyone has seen an encyclopedia salesman? Extinct, aren't they?

 

[Hector1970]

This was exactly my point. Most people do stick with the gear they have and then don't use what they have.

You said that Canon needs to move customers to mirrorless. My question to you is why or how? The real money spent on ILC cameras is in the accessories, not the camera body. I have a Canon DSLR, but just one. I also have about 40 lenses. My "L" glass could be used on an R body right now. So why don't I go buy an "R" body? Because the R body isn't going to produce photos that are enough better to justify it. My point is, DSLR or mirrorless, there is no earth shattering difference or reason to switch. Look at Sony: 14% market share and they've been on the mirrorless road for a long time.

Mirrorless is not the industry savior. There really is not anything special about it vs a DSLR. Canon just needs to do whatever Canon does to keep making money. I think (fantasy) that ILC sales will continue to decline. It isn't because of the cameras. It is a pop culture shift in what people value and how that is expressed. People now have their phone, TV, internet, camera and the Library of Congress in their back pocket. They don't want a backpack full of stuff. Photos? All on the phone and they are happy with low res tiny photos.

I've done a couple of recent shoots. Neither client cares about the hi res large file images I can provide. "Instagram and Facebook size is good enough."

Constantly trying to win the mega-pixel war doesn't help either. Why would a person purchase a 100mp camera (non-pro) that isn't going to use the photos for anything other than the web?

I think a large number of people probably see ILC's as too expensive, too bulky, too complicated, and a waste of time and money. Of course, I think the same thing about Bass Boats.

For a Canon Fanboy you seem to be very doom and gloom and that Canon will go the way of Encyclopedia Sellers.
Canon try not to be so they bring out new products which they hope their customers will buy.
It’s Canon’s strategy to push MILCs to maintain or increase sales. 2019 appears to be the year of MILC lens development. What they are short is cameras to support them. You may be happy with what you have as so not much further use to them as a customer. They are trying to sell to new customers (who have a range of options open) or existing customers who may want to replace or upgrade.
A 7DIII mirrorless would bring sports and wildlife shooters into their target range.

You may think mirrorless cameras are no better than mirrored cameras but that's in your shoes. Customers in general when they are buying something new are often looking for the latest innovation or future proofing their investment. In five years time do you expect Canon to be still bringing out new EF lens. I don't, I expect the only new lens they will be bringing out by then will be EF-R lens. Do I currently need a 70-200 2.8 lens? No I already have one.
If I had an EOS-R would I buy a 70-200 2.8 R lens. Well I might because while my old 70-200 is working away well its a little battered looking and I can't screw filters into it. I may buy a new lens for it.
If Canon brought out a new 7DIII would I buy it - no because my 7DII will do until the mirror fails.
If Canon brought out a new 7DR with silent shutter and a faster frame rate yes I might buy one.
This is what Canon needs to do to increase sales. They need to tempt new users and users like me who might upgrade. (They seem unlikely to see future sales from you as to seem to be happy with your lot which is very good for the environment and more of us should be like you).

 

[Ozarker]

For a Canon Fanboy you seem to be very doom and gloom and that Canon will go the way of Encyclopedia Sellers.

No gloom or doom in my heart. The reference to encyclopedia salesmen had to do with the way things have shifted in culture, not with Canon. It's about how sometimes a technology(s) comes along and radically changes things. Mirrorless cameras are not on the same level as wireless phones and the internet. In fact, I think the switch from film to digital was an exponentially bigger change than DSLR to mirrorless. There is nothing inherently special about mirrorless cameras.

A 7DIII mirrorless would bring sports and wildlife shooters into their target range.

?

You may think mirrorless cameras are no better than mirrored cameras but that's in your shoes. Customers in general when they are buying something new are often looking for the latest innovation or future proofing their investment.

How is mirrorless camera technology "better" than DSLR. Basically the same sensors, still has a shutter, still does it all the same way, but without a mirror... and slower frame rates and less battery life. What is so innovative and future proofing about mirrorless cameras? Nothing.

In five years time do you expect Canon to be still bringing out new EF lens.

Yes.

If Canon brought out a new 7DIII would I buy it - no because my 7DII will do until the mirror fails.

Exactly my point.

If Canon brought out a new 7DR with silent shutter and a faster frame rate yes I might buy one.

"Might" buy one.

(They seem unlikely to see future sales from you as to seem to be happy with your lot which is very good for the environment and more of us should be like you).

Canon will see future sales from me.

So you seem to be in the same boat as I. There is no wildly compelling reason to run out and buy an R body.

 

[Loswr]

In five years time do you expect Canon to be still bringing out new EF lens. I don't, I expect the only new lens they will be bringing out by then will be EF-R lens.

The ILC market is seeing an increase in the fraction of mirrorless...but it’s a slow increase, and it’s driven by a decline in DSLRs (likely due to market saturation), not an increase in MILCs. Unless that slow pace increases substantially, in 5 years DSLRs will still comprise a large fraction of the ILC market, and if that’s the case, Canon will keep right on launching EF lenses.

Truthfully, MILCs really aren’t all that different from DSLRs and don’t offer meaningful advantages for most users. People who think that omitting the mirror from an ILC is somehow an industry paradigm shift are fooling themselves. That’s not an ‘in your shoes’ opinion thing, it’s a statement backed up by market data. Film to digital was a bona fide paradigm shift, and in less than 10 years the market shifted from SLRs to DSLRs, and film ILCs were relegated to a niche market with minuscule sales. Today, 10 years after the wide availability of MILC systems, they have less than 40% of the ILC market, and MILC shipments have been essentially flat for the past 6 years.