SIGMA will announce two new Contemporary prime lenses soon

[mjg79]

Sony leads in full frame MILCs. Far more APS-C MILCs are sold than FF and Canon leads there (the EOS M line is the best-selling MILC line globally), 44% of the ILC market is DSLRs and Canon leads there. You can deeply segment the market in many ways. Leica is the global market leader for MILCs with brand names starting with the letter "L" so good for them!


They have always had to strive to maintain market leadership, and have done so successfully. Sony has gained market share in recent years mainly at the expense of Nikon.


Even Apple thinks the days of the walled garden are gone? That's news to the world.

Apple's 'walled garden' walls will get even higher with iOS 14, iPadOS 14 and MacOS Big Sur

The tech giant is building long-requested features into iOS 14, iPadOS 14 and MacOS Big Sur that tie the devices together, giving people fewer reasons to try competing options.

www.cnet.com

Since there's no walled garden, I guess the US Senate are just clueless in their attempt to legislate a breach in those walls.

U.S. Senate bill would force Apple to destroy their walled garden, allow third-party app stores

The new Senate bill, the Open App Markets Act, would let consumers select different third-party app stores for their mobile devices.…

macdailynews.com

Here's the thing...when you are blatantly wrong on several points, your credibility suffers and it becomes easier to dismiss your arguments entirely.

A rather strange - and needless, as I said nothing even remotely personal or invidious - little diatribe. You make a few factual errors, you just need to grasp that the world is complex and there aren't always clear cut answers.

Just for the record with Apple, especially as someone else above is confused about it, yes, Steve Jobs was very clear at first that third parties would not be allowed to install apps on what we now call iOS devices - he saw the error of his ways quickly and abandoned that and there is zero chance of apple ever going back on that. There is also a wide range of made for iOS devices and accessories that Apple regulate and licence. Apple has now for a couple of decades pushed relentlessly for things like USB standards and anything other than proprietary cables - there are nuanced arguments about lightning etc.

All of the arguments you refer to with the US Senate etc are matters of nuance, how much Apple charge, how tightly they control it etc. Nobody (well except you it appears) disputes that Apple has allowed others in; the arguments are all about how it is done. What was that you said about credibility??

Your point about market segmentation is absurd. Sony became, from almost nowhere, the market leader in full frame mirrorless cameras ahead of both Canon and Nikon - to compare that to Leica saying they are number one beginning with L is silly - as you know. Full frame mirrorless is of huge importance to the future of photography - notably Canon also disagrees with you on that otherwise they wouldn't be pouring so many billions into competing in that market. As it happens Canon will likely overtake Sony, maybe even this year, but to diminish what Sony achieved is strange - you won't find one single business school that would take your position, to go from nowhere to market leader in a decade was an amazing achievement and worth studying and understanding. And I say that as someone who loathes Sony cameras.

I'm honestly lost as to why you're so worked up. Someone has a different opinion from you on the net - I would like to see some careful moves from Canon to embrace the new world of high quality third party lenses and you apparently don't share that hope. Fine. Will they do it? Who knows? I don't, and you - certainly - don't. They apparently did once before with Zeiss. Maybe they never will again.

 

[mjg79]

Again, I must be missing something. When you go into Best Buy, how many non Apple computers can you find using the Apple IOS? When you go shopping for smart phones, how many other manufacturers are using the Apple IOS? Honest question, because I don't really follow computer or phones, but I was under the impression that if you want to use an Apple system, you pretty much need an Apple brand. Does Dell, Asis, HP etc. make computers using Apples IOS?

Yes you are missing something, that being the huge markets of apps and accessories - both multi-billion dollar industries where Apple has openly embraced working with anyone who will adhere to certain high standards.

Indeed you can't get MacOS or iOS on non-Apple devices, it's not a complete free for all. But Apple has clearly moved to embracing third parties and charging them fees - it means two things - the consumer wins through there being more apps and there being more accessories and Apple gets a cut of the profits. Moreover in the early days it actually drove iphone's success. Apple even took out billboard ads showing off how many apps were available on what we now call iOS.

Could Apple be more open? Maybe. Are they greedy with fees? Maybe. Would being more open mean they got lower quality? Maybe. But on the - huge - issue of Apps on iOS devices Apple is crystal clear they support and embrace third parties building them and want them to succeed.

Is this the best approach? Well who can say. Apple has become the most valuable company in history so I think readers here shouldn't be quite so quick to dismiss the approach of carefully embracing some third parties. Will it work for Canon? Nobody knows. Is it necessary? Almost certainly not - I think Canon can be number one without outsiders. But I think the questions could be asked - and this was all I said which has seemed to upset some here - a) would Canon possibly make more money from having a platform that had wider appeal through third party support? b) would we as consumers benefit from a small number of carefully selected partnerships with third parties like Voigtlander and Sigma? II think the answer to those is "quite possibly" but I concede nobody can know for certain.

 

[mjg79]

So, if no one can agree on why, then why do you assume it is Canon's fault.

I didn't say anything about fault - but while Sony has been open in recent years that they are sharing their mount with some third parties who in turn agree to certain demands, Canon has not made any such announcement. So while nobody here knows whether Canon is doing this or that right now it's a fair guess they aren't. Otherwise I would expect we would already have seen some Sigma RF lenses. Canon quickly got to second place behind Sony last year in full frame mirrorless and will probably either this year or in the coming years get ahead of Sony - it will be a big market for Sigma to exploit, indeed the biggest in mirrorless.
Maybe Canon has already got an agreement with Sigma of course, we can't know, but it seems unlikely.
If I had to actually make a guess I think Canon won't do it, won't go for working with third parties. In my view that's a shame - some of the lenses especially from Voigtlander and Sigma are great and some are unique. You couldn't pay me to shoot Sony, I really dislike their cameras but still I will have a bit of envy, especially of lenses like the Voigtlander 40mm 1.2.

 

[mjg79]

Yes Zeiss 100% paid Canon, in the lens reference numbers assigned by Canon for lens recognition and DPP corrections the Zeiss lenses have their own number and show in EXIF as Zeiss lenses. Sigma, Tokina, Tamron et al don't.

Other third parties piggyback off an older lens number and 'fool' the body into thinking it has a Canon lens mounted. This can cause issues if auto correction is set to on and results in banded rings.

That's fascinating - thanks for the info. At the time everyone was - with some justification - moaning about canon's wide angles and like many others I bought the Zeiss 21 ZE. It was great and caused me to buy more Zeiss lenses later. Given their price and quality it would have been unthinkable really for them to have been some cobbled together reverse engineered lenses so it does all ring true.

I wonder if that predates Sony and Zeiss being so close. Maybe that would make such a situation harder today. As a landscape photographer I would love to have a Loxia 21mm on a modern Canon RF camera.

 

[neuroanatomist]

There is also a wide range of made for iOS devices and accessories that Apple regulate and licence.

Canon has agreements with Red and Zeiss (lens-related), and most recently with TEAC (new hotshoe accessories), so they’re clearly able and willing to enter agreements with 3rd parties where and when it makes sense to them. Seems that what makes sense to you does not make sense to Canon. It’s a reasonable ask, but honestly I doubt they care (from a business standpoint, there’s no reason to) about a minuscule number of photographers wanting to use a Voigtlander 40/1.2 on an R body.

Your point about market segmentation is absurd. Sony became, from almost nowhere, the market leader in full frame mirrorless cameras ahead of both Canon and Nikon - to compare that to Leica saying they are number one beginning with L is silly - as you know. Full frame mirrorless is of huge importance to the future of photography - notably Canon also disagrees with you on that otherwise they would't be pouring so many billions into competing in that market.

The ‘starts with L’ was intentionally absurd, of course.

Of course Sony became the market leader in FF MILCs ‘out of nowhere’ – literally. They launched the a7 years before Nikon and then eventually Canon entered the segment. It’s easy to be and remain #1 in the absence of competition. Sony had the most popular line of APS-C MILCs, the NEX series. It’s no coincidence that soon after Canon entered the MILC market with the EOS M, Sony abandoned the NEX line and released the first FF MILC, creating a new market segment. When the 800 lb gorilla enters the room, you look for the exit door. Sony abandoned DSLRs because they couldn’t compete with Canon and Nikon. As you suggest, it is possible that Canon will overtake Sony in the FF MILC segment as well. I wonder where Sony will run at that point? Whatever happened to the Vaio, anyway?

 

[Frankonian]

What about the Atomos collaboration?

What about Red who sell EF and RF mount option cameras and paid the licensing fees to do so correctly?

It seems when it makes sense to Canon they do work with third parties.

Great point @ privatebydesign.
As I don`t use Video, I don`t know much about this cooperation. It`s maybe the exception to the rule

I see it from a still photographers working professional perspektive, who bought an additional R6 in february.
It feels really nice to work with the body ergonomics wise. But the new CR3-Raw-files are extreme time consuming to properly develop in Adobe Lightroom an Camera Raw, i think because of missing camera standard adobe profiles? I really think of continue using the old fashion 5d iv, as the CR2-raws are much better/ faster to develop in Adobe Products.
If you chat with canon support, they tell you: "use DPP, our own software, where not involved in anything going on with third party (Adobe) software".
I just donwloaded sample Sony A7iii Raw-files from DPP, they were much better usable in Lightroom from start on.

The next problem is the actual RF-lens portfolio:
if you want to/ have to carry around 3 to 4 actual professional grade RF-primes in your camera bag, you need a body like Arnold Schwarzenegger (in the 1980s) and wallet like Donald Duck.
If you use the small & quite affordable lenses like 1.8/35RF and 2.0/85 RF they are due to body roboustness, the chose of motors, AF-Speed not professional grade lenses.
There is really a big whole in Canons RF-lens lineup in the mid-range. And no third party options like in Sony System.
Even the old EF-Primes like 50/1.2 and 85/1.4 were years behind the competition like sigma art series.

One more thing is build in overheating timer with video.

I stay with my opinion: Canon fears everything, that is not labled: "Canon".
Even my R6 regularly shut down, when used with the original battery grip (with original, new batteries), with the message
"are batteries original ones?" / "y/n?" "The inserted batteries seem to be not from Canon. Your camera will shut down, because of safety reasons".
No roblem with the same (new and original) batteries without the battery-grip..

 

[SNJ Ops]

Sigma and Tamron are producing Sony e-mount lenses. I imagine there must be some agreement with Sony, or else they've reverse-engineered without legal repercussions. These third-party manufacturers are not (yet) producing lenses for Canon. And that's too bad. I think more people would jump to Canon or else upgrade from EF to R if a good selection of third-party lenses were available.. I think Canon is at a competitive disadvantage to Sony in this regard.
Food for thought: Imagine if Microsoft only allowed their own software to run on Windows...

Sony is a major shareholder of Tamron, its also why Tamron doesn’t make any lenses that directly compete with any of Sony’s offerings.

Sigma are free to make what they want on emount aside from teleconverters as I understand it.

 

[rbr]

I have been using the R5 as my main camera for almost a year now. I must say that my favorite lenses that I have used with it have been my Sigma ART wide angle lenses in EF mount. It has been such a joy to open up the RAW files and see such amazing corner to corner brilliance. If I did switch to Sony, having all those Sigma DG DN options amongst other 3rd party lens makers would be a huge selling point for Sony to me. Another is that Sony 200-600. Sony definitely has the lens option advantage right now. I have been using Canon for 25 years starting with the EOS 1N in the 90's, but right now I am very reluctant to put any more money into that system while looking at what the Sony system offers.

 

[Frankonian]

I have been using the R5 as my main camera for almost a year now. I must say that my favorite lenses that I have used with it have been my Sigma ART wide angle lenses in EF mount. It has been such a joy to open up the RAW files and see such amazing corner to corner brilliance. If I did switch to Sony, having all those Sigma DG DN options amongst other 3rd party lens makers would be a huge selling point for Sony to me. Another is that Sony 200-600. Sony definitely has the lens option advantage right now. I have been using Canon for 25 years starting with the EOS 1N in the 90's, but right now I am very reluctant to put any more money into that system while looking at what the Sony system offers.

that is 100% my opinion. That`s the same with my Canon EF-Lens-Lineup. I`ve sold my Canon EF 50 1.2 L for the Sigma 50mm 1.4 ART, which is much, much better. Also the Sigma 24-35/2.0 and 20/1.4 are highlights of my Canon EF-quipment.
As it looks at the moment, we won`t see attraktive third party offerings for Canon RF-System from the other high-end makers, except Canon.
Even Samyang seem to leave the Canon RF-system.

 

[alexKan]

that is 100% my opinion. That`s the same with my Canon EF-Lens-Lineup. I`ve sold my Canon EF 50 1.2 L for the Sigma 50mm 1.4 ART, which is much, much better. Also the Sigma 24-35/2.0 and 20/1.4 are highlights of my Canon EF-quipment.
As it looks at the moment, we won`t see attraktive third party offerings for Canon RF-System from the other high-end makers, except Canon.
Even Samyang seem to leave the Canon RF-system.

that is also my opinion, 3rd party lens give me more alternative for lens and those 3rd lens allows me to stay with the Canon system.
3 rd party lens actually helps Canon to earn more, e.g. customer tens to invest more like body , attractive Canon's lens, battery, flash etc.
If Canon open RF-mount with license fee canon will earn much more.
system without 3rd party lens actually force customer to left the system , e.g. Sony's a-mount vs Canon EF-mount and Nikon F-mount.

 

[neuroanatomist]

If Canon open RF-mount with license fee canon will earn much more.

Have you done a detailed financial analysis of this? It’s almost certain that Canon has done so, and they have decided not to open up the system to main 3rd party lenses.

As is regrettably common here, forum members think they know more than a global, multibillion dollar company with the data to support these sorts of decisions.

system without 3rd party lens actually force customer to left the system , e.g. Sony's a-mount vs Canon EF-mount and Nikon F-mount.

If users are being forced to leave Canon’s system, how is Canon still gaining market share? Probably because those who need to use a 3rd party lens comprise a group that’s insignificant at the scale of the ILC market…and therefore irrelevant to Canon.

 

[AlanF]

I have been using the R5 as my main camera for almost a year now. I must say that my favorite lenses that I have used with it have been my Sigma ART wide angle lenses in EF mount. It has been such a joy to open up the RAW files and see such amazing corner to corner brilliance. If I did switch to Sony, having all those Sigma DG DN options amongst other 3rd party lens makers would be a huge selling point for Sony to me. Another is that Sony 200-600. Sony definitely has the lens option advantage right now. I have been using Canon for 25 years starting with the EOS 1N in the 90's, but right now I am very reluctant to put any more money into that system while looking at what the Sony system offers.

I know the Sony 200-600 is a popular lens from the birding websites I look at. Surprisingly, I have never seen one on my many trips in the UK. The most popular is Canon with the 100-400mm II and increasingly the RF 100-500mm, followed by Nikon with the 500mm PF and 200-500mm. I see fewer Sigma and Tamron 150-600mm than in the past. Personal anecdotal evidence, of course, but I suspect there is a larger market for lighter lenses.

 

[degos]

Yes Zeiss 100% paid Canon, in the lens reference numbers assigned by Canon for lens recognition and DPP corrections the Zeiss lenses have their own number and show in EXIF as Zeiss lenses. Sigma, Tokina, Tamron et al don't.

I've just checked and the 1DX2 correctly recognises the Tamron 15-30 and 45.

 

[privatebydesign]

I've just checked and the 1DX2 correctly recognises the Tamron 15-30 and 45.

Interesting....

 

[bergstrom]

Need someone to make an alternatie to theTamron 15-30 that firmware can be installed connecting the lens to desktop, instead of buying a docking tap-on station.

 

[bergstrom]

Has anyone called the cops on Canon for daylight robbery? i.e RF lens prices.

 

[snappy604]

Has anyone called the cops on Canon for daylight robbery? i.e RF lens prices.

pro-grade stuff in any field commands a rather steep premium. Canon is the leader overall in cameras still and the new RF series mostly comes out as L which is pro-grade... meaning really ridiculous prices (I cringe too)... they do have some cheaper RF now, but of course everyone wants the best.

this is not unique to canon.. and yes I have several Sigma

 

[canonmike]

Definitely. Canon will have everything patented, and will try hard to protect lucrative sales of their RF exotica, so anyone treading on their toes could find themselves in trouble. I can't see Canon releasing the RF protocols, at least not until they have filled out their range of RF glass. There's little benefit to Canon if they make the mount available to all comers. Some of the Chinese brands might be willing to take the gamble, as it's in their culture to "copy and improve", but Tamron and Sigma are selling lenses in other mounts as fast as they can produce them, so I think they'll be in no great hurry to produce RF.

Sometime ago, I saw a post by a Canon Japan rep that stated competitive lens Mfgs are exactly that, competitors and to my knowledge, Canon has never shared their tech data with 3rd party lens Mfgs., which leaves reverse engineering their only alternative. . Competitors are not making knock offs or illegal copies. They're just trying to make EF and RF compatible lenses. I don't see the legal restrictions or patents being the problem here. If they were, you wouldn't see Samyang/Rokinon producing RF mount lenses, already. I feel sure that Canon hasn't shared any RF tech data with them.

 

[canonmike]

Has anyone called the cops on Canon for daylight robbery? i.e RF lens prices.

Nobody is happy about the high prices but it's a sign of the times. Have you seen grocrery, gas, car, etc. pricing lately?? Our choices are to just suck it up and pay it or just don't buy it.

 

[snappy604]

btw sigma EF lenses work just fine on the R5 with the adapter.. I've several, no issues on any of them