Canon executives address third-party RF future

[neuroanatomist]

Everyone understands how a business works and that they can switch brands. It doesn't have to be explained repeatedly.

No, there are clearly a large number of posters on this site with less business acumen than a bowling ball. Perhaps you’re not one of them, but there are plenty of them.

The number of people who have predicted doom for Canon if they didn’t do X or make product Y (X and Y being things they personally want) is sufficient that the word d00med is black listed. Lots of people here make statements that are easily refuted by available facts, often facts in Canon’s own IR materials and/or those of other manufacturers.

They should be paying attention to sites like these to get an understanding what their customers want.

Perhaps, but they probably aren’t. Sifting through a bunch of rants on a forum is inefficient at best.

They do ask customers directly what they want…I’ve received several marketing surveys directly from Canon, and I’m not unique in that.

But you’re welcome to hold the opinion that your venting here is relevant to Canon. Good luck with that!

 

[Brikna]

They do ask customers directly what they want…I’ve received several marketing surveys directly from Canon, and I’m not unique in that.

Although I have been a Canon customer for 25 years with CPS platinum status, I have never been asked for any opinion or invited to participate in any opinion poll other than if I was satisfied with the speed of finding answers on their website. I previously worked in the automotive industry for over 20 years and I know that we regularly "tired" customers with various surveys that we actually used to improve the way we do business and improve customer satisfaction and participated as mediators in numerous surveys conducted by the manufacturer through us. I am even more surprised that Canon has never asked me almost anything in those 25 years. However, I'm glad to hear that there are still customers that Canon does ask for their opinion.

 

[Brikna]

You don't even find them on Blackrapid website anymore, they surely are old discontinued products; I bought them (new) on eBay last week, they were 2€ each so super cheap, they probably were clearance items. The "50" goes perfectly on the RF 50mm 1.8 and can be twisted by any position, without alignment.

View attachment 210926

I just ordered 4 BlacRapid covers from ebay that you recommended. The price was €2.25/piece + shipping costs. I hope everything will work as it did for you - that would be a great relief and one less flaw for the RF mount Thanks for the tip!

 

[neuroanatomist]

I just ordered 4 BlacRapid covers from ebay that you recommended. The price was €2.25/piece + shipping costs. I hope everything will work as it did for you - that would be a great relief and one less flaw for the RF mount Thanks for the tip!

IMO, that’s the real benefit of a forum like this. Photographers helping or inspiring other photographers.

Sadly, many people sign up and post, in some cases post extensively, without helping anyone or posting a single image. To me, those people add zero value to the forum.

 

[neuroanatomist]

Although I have been a Canon customer for 25 years with CPS platinum status, I have never been asked for any opinion or invited to participate in any opinion poll other than if I was satisfied with the speed of finding answers on their website.

I’ve been told they get feedback directly from CPS members at major events where Canon staffs a booth and provides support.

Canon also gets a lot of data when people fill out product registrations, either via the little postcards (that they still include with new gear), or online as is likely more common now. From those they get demographics on their buyers (including age and income), and they also ask about gear you own and gear you plan to buy.

I have no idea how they select people for web surveys. True population sampling needs to be random or systematic random, that’s how political opinion surveys work for example. But Canon may target their surveys. I’ve received 4-5 web surveys over the 14 years I’ve been a Canon customer, and to me that suggests it isn’t random. I do occasionally fill out the registration online, so maybe that’s part of it, and maybe my demographics align with a targeted market (I’d categorize myself as an ‘affluent enthusiast’, and it does seem Canon is targeting that demographic more and more).

 

[Walrus]

I just ordered 4 BlacRapid covers from ebay that you recommended. The price was €2.25/piece + shipping costs. I hope everything will work as it did for you - that would be a great relief and one less flaw for the RF mount Thanks for the tip!

The shelf price was 2,50€ if I recall, but they accepted proposals, so wanting to buy 5 of them, I just sent proposal for 2€ and they kindly accepted it.

I'm pretty sure everything will work out for you as well, my RF 50 send its regards

 

[EricN]

No, there are clearly a large number of posters on this site with less business acumen than a bowling ball. Perhaps you’re not one of them, but there are plenty of them.

The number of people who have predicted doom for Canon if they didn’t do X or make product Y (X and Y being things they personally want) is sufficient that the word d00med is black listed. Lots of people here make statements that are easily refuted by available facts, often facts in Canon’s own IR materials and/or those of other manufacturers.


Perhaps, but they probably aren’t. Sifting through a bunch of rants on a forum is inefficient at best.

They do ask customers directly what they want…I’ve received several marketing surveys directly from Canon, and I’m not unique in that.

But you’re welcome to hold the opinion that your venting here is relevant to Canon. Good luck with that!

"Canon is D00med because they didn't make a 50mm f/1.4 after June 1993," comes to mind.

I didn't bother to send in warranty cards for over ten years. Then, I started sending them in and I got a survey too. Am I surprised? Not really...

 

[Brikna]

"Canon is D00med because they didn't make a 50mm f/1.4 after June 1993," comes to mind.

I didn't bother to send in warranty cards for over ten years. Then, I started sending them in and I got a survey too. Am I surprised? Not really...

In Croatia, when buying new Canon equipment, we don't get anything that we can send back to Canon (warranty card, etc.), so we can't even expect any kind of contact after that. The only thing I do after buying or selling equipment is to update my equipment list in Canon CPS. Even after cash-back campaigns in which I leave all my information (address, phone number, email, and even bank account number), they never make any follow-up contact, they never ask for any feedback regarding satisfaction with the purchased equipment or anything similar. However, there are also companies that have a good practice of regular market research - I bought a few accessories from SmallRig and after that they regularly invite me to participate in various surveys that seem to me to be very well put together. In addition, for each participation in the research, they approve a nice discount for the next purchase. I would like to receive some surveys from Canon as well. It is also possible that Canon knows its customers well, maybe all the products and their characteristics are truly based on market research, I don't know... I am very satisfied with Canon in general, but some of their moves are inexplicable to me. Fortunately, there are few, much fewer such moves than competitors.

 

[Brikna]

The shelf price was 2,50€ if I recall, but they accepted proposals, so wanting to buy 5 of them, I just sent proposal for 2€ and they kindly accepted it.

I'm pretty sure everything will work out for you as well, my RF 50 send its regards

View attachment 210929

Thanks for the photo with proof that the thing really works! I'm really looking forward to my new caps. That Canon glitch has been surprising me for almost five years - now that has come to an end!

Thanks again!

 

[Walrus]

Thanks for the photo with proof that the thing really works! I'm really looking forward to my new caps. That Canon glitch has been surprising me for almost five years - now that has come to an end!

Thanks again!

My pleasure Regards from Italy (I see you're in Croatia, we're somewhat neighbours )

 

[Brikna]

My pleasure Regards from Italy (I see you're in Croatia, we're somewhat neighbours )

Greetings from Croatia! I am from Vinkovci, one of the oldest inhabited places in Europe and with an extremely rich history from the time of the Roman Empire, so you could say that we are very close neighbors

 

[EricN]

In Croatia, when buying new Canon equipment, we don't get anything that we can send back to Canon (warranty card, etc.), so we can't even expect any kind of contact after that. The only thing I do after buying or selling equipment is to update my equipment list in Canon CPS. Even after cash-back campaigns in which I leave all my information (address, phone number, email, and even bank account number), they never make any follow-up contact, they never ask for any feedback regarding satisfaction with the purchased equipment or anything similar. However, there are also companies that have a good practice of regular market research - I bought a few accessories from SmallRig and after that they regularly invite me to participate in various surveys that seem to me to be very well put together. In addition, for each participation in the research, they approve a nice discount for the next purchase. I would like to receive some surveys from Canon as well. It is also possible that Canon knows its customers well, maybe all the products and their characteristics are truly based on market research, I don't know... I am very satisfied with Canon in general, but some of their moves are inexplicable to me. Fortunately, there are few, much fewer such moves than competitors.

They do seem to have strange practices for some countries, such as higher prices than what is reasonable for UK.

 

[David - Sydney]

So if it's all legal, then it's even more inexplicable that no one is doing R(E)F lenses with AF and electronics, other then having a precise deal with Canon for not doing it. Or they just don't want to be caught in a legal dispute that they maybe would eventually win, but would burn a lot of money, and Canon certainly has much more money then them. It's good practice (I'm ironic of course) for reach people to sue poorer people just to scare them off.

Encryption is the simplest way to prevent (or actively discourage) electrical protocols.

 

[David - Sydney]

I smell absolute PR bullshit. The wild thing about Canon is that they barely respond to media pressure. I guess it's good for them sucks for everyone else.

Canon certainly responded to R5's perceived overheating media pressure. Hard to believe but there is still rusted-on perceptions about Canon regarding overheating from other brand warriors about that.

 

[David - Sydney]

Let’s try basic math. Four RF lenses launched with the R in 2018. Over the next 5 years, they added 32 lenses. 32 / 5 means 6.4 lenses per year. How is that ‘closer to 4’? Seems closer to 7-8 to me. But then, I understand basic math.

Aren't there 37 RF lenses (35 lenses + 2 TCs)? 42 listed, 7 EF-M and the RF TCs aren't listed
https://www.usa.canon.com/shop/lenses/mirrorless-lenses

 

[neuroanatomist]

Aren't there 37 RF lenses (35 lenses + 2 TCs)? 42 listed, 7 EF-M and the RF TCs aren't listed
https://www.usa.canon.com/shop/lenses/mirrorless-lenses

My bad (counting). I suspect I looked at a list that didn't have the RF 28/2.8 on it yet. There are, indeed, 37 RF lenses now (Canon does count the TCs), so 33 added over the next 5 years means 6.6 lenses per year instead of 6.4. Even closer to 7-8 than to 4.

 

[David - Sydney]

My bad (counting). I suspect I looked at a list that didn't have the RF 28/2.8 on it yet. There are, indeed, 37 RF lenses now (Canon does count the TCs), so 33 added over the next 5 years means 6.6 lenses per year instead of 6.4. Even closer to 7-8 than to 4.

for comparison (and in addition), there are 43 EF/EF-s lenses (44 - 1 shown as being a 2 lens kit) with a number on backorder and some with "notify me when available". 3rd party EF/EF-S lenses on top of all these... must be close to a hundred compatible lenses for R mount.
https://www.usa.canon.com/shop/lenses/dslr-lenses

 

[SNJ Ops]

Canon's horrible price gouging in the UK post-Brexit has been flogged like a deceased equine. Here in the US, the OEM Canon lenses are cheaper (the trinity comes in at US$7K), but still double the 3rd party setup. Of course, one could easily get a set of the EF f/2.8 zoom trinity used in 9+ condition for the same or lower total cost of the 3rd party trinity, if one needed or wanted an f/2.8 trinity. One could adapt an EF-mount 3rd party trinity for even less, and a used 3rd party EF mount trinity for probably less than that narrow-aperture $1650 RF consumer lens setup. Choice is good.

But as I said, IMO with these lenses Canon is mainly targeting well-heeled amateurs. The thing to keep in mind is that Canon's primary concern is operating profit. If they determine that pricing lenses high (with lower resulting unit sales) is more profitable, that's what they'll do. The same logic will be applied to licensing the RF mount to 3rd parties. So far, Canon has decided it's not in their best interests to do so.

Those who want to adapt EF glass can and are already doing so. I agree that one could find some really cheap 3rd party glass and have a well rounded kit. The issue arises when someone needs a smaller and lighter kit and adding an adapter to a DSLR lens makes for a larger an in some cases much heavier kit.

One such example is the difference in size, weight and ergonomics between an R5 with an adapted Sigma 85mm f1.4 DG HSM (which I have held) and a Sony A7RIV with a native 85mm f1.4 DG DN. I used another photographer’s R5 and adapted 85mm and ergonomically the experience wasn’t good at all. Nothing to do with the body whatsoever but rather the very very unbalanced weight caused by the lens being front heavy.

R5 = 738g
Adapter = 110g
Sigma 85mm f1.4 DG HSM = 1135g
Total - 1983g

A7RIV = 665g
Sigma 85mm f1.4 DG DN = 630g
Total - 1295g

Weights of a 3rd party f2.8 trinity kit adapted
R5 and adapter = 848g
Sigma 14-24mm f2.8 = 1150g
Sigma 24-70mm f2.8 = 1055g
Tamron 70-200mm f2.8 = 1485g
Total - 4538g

Weight of an emount 3rd party f2.8 trinity
A7RIV = 665g
Sigma 14-24mm f2.8 = 795g
Sigma 24-70mm f2.8 = 835g
Tamron 70-180mm f2.8 = 810g
Total - 3105g

 

[Brikna]

Those who want to adapt EF glass can and are already doing so. I agree that one could find some really cheap 3rd party glass and have a well rounded kit. The issue arises when someone needs a smaller and lighter kit and adding an adapter to a DSLR lens makes for a larger an in some cases much heavier kit.

One such example is the difference in size, weight and ergonomics between an R5 with an adapted Sigma 85mm f1.4 DG HSM (which I have held) and a Sony A7RIV with a native 85mm f1.4 DG DN. I used another photographer’s R5 and adapted 85mm and ergonomically the experience wasn’t good at all. Nothing to do with the body whatsoever but rather the very very unbalanced weight caused by the lens being front heavy.

R5 = 738g
Adapter = 110g
Sigma 85mm f1.4 DG HSM = 1135g
Total - 1983g

A7RIV = 665g
Sigma 85mm f1.4 DG DN = 630g
Total - 1295g

Weights of a 3rd party f2.8 trinity kit adapted
R5 and adapter = 848g
Sigma 14-24mm f2.8 = 1150g
Sigma 24-70mm f2.8 = 1055g
Tamron 70-200mm f2.8 = 1485g
Total - 4538g

Weight of an emount 3rd party f2.8 trinity
A7RIV = 665g
Sigma 14-24mm f2.8 = 795g
Sigma 24-70mm f2.8 = 835g
Tamron 70-180mm f2.8 = 810g
Total - 3105g

The difference in weight certainly exists, it is hard to dispute that, although combinations can be made in which the Sony kit would be a little heavier, and the Canon kit a little lighter. But holding a Sony camera and a Canon camera in your hands all day cannot be compared by any measurements - Canon is ergonomically incomparably better, more intuitive, simply, a more pleasant tool to work with. Sony almost always wins on paper, but rarely in practice. Sony has also made some progress in terms of ergonomics, but they are still only a pale shadow of how the device should look and how it should function in practice.

 

[SNJ Ops]

The difference in weight certainly exists, it is hard to dispute that, although combinations can be made in which the Sony kit would be a little heavier, and the Canon kit a little lighter. But holding a Sony camera and a Canon camera in your hands all day cannot be compared by any measurements - Canon is ergonomically incomparably better, more intuitive, simply, a more pleasant tool to work with. Sony almost always wins on paper, but rarely in practice. Sony has also made some progress in terms of ergonomics, but they are still only a pale shadow of how the device should look and how it should function in practice.

You find Canon ergonomics superior to Sony, I personally find Sony’s ergonomics to be on par. Certainly Sony’s 3rd gen bodies were way way behind but they have since caught up in my opinion. Again ergonomics fly out the window when putting a much heavier adapted lens with an uneven weight distribution on the camera.

Looks and how usable someone finds a camera is often subjective. Size, weight, length and price of kit is directly measurable and comparable.