EVF for Rebels?

[entoman]

Another thread asked whether Canon is heading in a new direction, by expanding the xxxD (Rebel) series and the xD (professional) series, and phasing out the xxD (prosumer enthusiast) series.

I would go one stage further. I think the Rebel DSLRs will before long be phased out and replaced with mirrorless cameras that use EF-S lenses (possibly via an adaptor). The new SL2 could well be the first in that series.

That way Canon will have 2 very clearly defined markets - entry level users up to prosumer enthusiasts would all have lightweight mirrorless bodies and EVFs, while pros and semi-pros would have FF and APS-C DSLRs with optical viewfinders and larger bodies with Canon's standard superb ergonomics.

 

[ajfotofilmagem]

It is possible that the Rebel have electronic viewfinder soon. But the lens mount must be compatible with EF / EF-S. having to use a lens adapter would be a bad idea.

 

[Sporgon]

Another thread asked whether Canon is heading in a new direction, by expanding the xxxD (Rebel) series and the xD (professional) series, and phasing out the xxD (prosumer enthusiast) series.

I would go one stage further. I think the Rebel DSLRs will before long be phased out and replaced with mirrorless cameras that use EF-S lenses (possibly via an adaptor). The new SL2 could well be the first in that series.

That way Canon will have 2 very clearly defined markets - entry level users up to prosumer enthusiasts would all have lightweight mirrorless bodies and EVFs, while pros and semi-pros would have FF and APS-C DSLRs with optical viewfinders and larger bodies with Canon's standard superb ergonomics.

I think you are underestimating how many 'consumer' 'mid level camera' ( and all dslrs are these IMO) users like the idea of optically looking through the lens.

Also the engineering mechanics of the reflex mirror are often over stated; it's actually a pretty simple system that is free in terms of energy consumption.

I think we will see a move to much improved OVFs on the Rebel series. Either that or they will die in the face of improved EVFs.

 

[Tugela]

This is the first image that comes to mind when I think about OVF fans

 

[Loswr]

This is the first image that comes to mind when I think about OVF fans

And when EVFs finally supplant OVFs, people may well look like this.

 

[distant.star]

This is the first image that comes to mind when I think about OVF fans

Exactly.

We've always done it this way. No need to change!

And if you keep up the blaspheming, we'll burn you at the stake. We do control the fire, you know!

 

[dak723]

It seems to me that the main advantage of going mirrorless is that the mirror takes up room and mirrorless can be smaller and lighter. Canon's SL1 shows that you can go small and light and still have an OVF. I understand that there are advantages to the WYSIWYG aspect of the EVF, but so far, in my experience, only the Olympus EM-1 has an EVF that is accurate enough in that regard. Other aspects of the EVF, such as having focus peaking, seem to be advanced features that rebel users don't want or need. I have cameras with both OVFs and EVFs, and they both have some positives and negatives - and I don't see them being so much different that people have such strong feelings one way or the other. But, so far, you get a better view of the scene with an OVF. And since cameras can be smaller and lighter with an OVF, I see no rush - or any good reason - to replace them with an EVF. I think rebel users want simple - and OVF is the simpler alternative.

 

[Aglet]

...And since cameras can be smaller and lighter with an OVF, I see no rush - or any good reason - to replace them with an EVF. I think rebel users want simple - and OVF is the simpler alternative.

main mirror
mirror pivot assembly
mirror drive motor and mechanics
mirror return spring and damper

penta-mirror assembly
screen
AF point LED assembly
shooting info display assembly

PDAF unit
PDAF secondary mirror
PDAF calibration


VS.

OLED EVF display assembly
data pipeline and processing for OLED display (already a function of any system capable of live-view)


one of those systems has a lot of fiddly mechanical parts that needs to be precisely factory calibrated

the other is easily mass-produced electronic component and some software.

Which, ultimately, is likely to be cheaper and offer more potential for performance improvement and new features when manufacturing very large numbers of units?

edit: hmmm. this sounds familiar

http://www.canonrumors.com/forum/index.php?topic=26179.msg518145#msg518145

 

[Mt Spokane Photography]

A EFV certainly would be more reliable than the complex and expensive flaming mirror. However, it also brings along some baggage that is not yet figured out.

Autofocus is the biggest issue. With small sensors, its easier and faster because accuracy requirements are much more lax due to the increased depth of field. When it comes to latge sensors, achieving the standard 1/3 depth of focus accuracy takes more time.

There is also the issue of perceived image quality. North
American and European buyers link a large DSLR to improved image quality and think that they have a professional camera and lens when they purchase a beginning DSLR kit.

In Asia, buyers want a small size.

Since sales in Asia are starting to dominate the market, that's where camera makers will be aiming.

 

[Aglet]

A EFV certainly would be more reliable than the complex and expensive flaming mirror. However, it also brings along some baggage that is not yet figured out.

other than battery life, I don't think we've seen it yet.
I think the OLED blue longevity issue has been pretty much managed as the EVF is not going to see 10s of thousands of hours very quickly.

Autofocus is the biggest issue. With small sensors, its easier and faster because accuracy requirements are much more lax due to the increased depth of field. When it comes to latge sensors, achieving the standard 1/3 depth of focus accuracy takes more time.

some truth in that but Fuji's APSC and MFT is not that much smaller and similar to the 1" size sensors so precision is still required, and achieved, using CDAF, which is pretty quick these days.

There is also the issue of perceived image quality. North
American and European buyers link a large DSLR to improved image quality and think that they have a professional camera and lens when they purchase a beginning DSLR kit.

ya, that group's big on bragging rights and conspicuous consumption.

In Asia, buyers want a small size.

Since sales in Asia are starting to dominate the market, that's where camera makers will be aiming.

yup.

 

[raptor3x]

I just want somebody to make an obnoxiously large EVF, I've been looking forward to that since I bought a Canon S3 IS way back when and it dawned on me that EVFs allow the VF magnification to be completely decoupled from the actual format size. Fuji's the closest so far, but somehow the VF feels smaller than my 1Ds3/1DX even though it's technically larger. Bring on the O-M1 or larger EVFs.

 

[Hillsilly]

That way Canon will have 2 very clearly defined markets - entry level users up to prosumer enthusiasts would all have lightweight mirrorless bodies and EVFs, while pros and semi-pros would have FF and APS-C DSLRs with optical viewfinders and larger bodies with Canon's standard superb ergonomics.

This all hinges on AF speed.

Imagine a world where on-sensor AF speed rivalled current DSLR AF. Without a mirror flapping up and down and coupled with an improved electronic shutter, this would allow you to dramatically increase FPS. In addition, the camera can still continue tracking the subject while you are taking a photo. Who wouldn't want that? A lot of people would happily pay for such a feature. Plus its the sort of performance upgrade that would encourage current 1DX users to bring out their wallets for a significantly more expensive 1DX2.

I see going mirrorless as the pro / performance option. At the entry level, Canon will still continue to make DSLR. Not because it is the cheaper manufacturing choice. No, instead they'll market mirrorless as a premium upgrade and make customers feel like they're missing out if they stick with an old school DSLR.

 

[TeT]

Regarding the REBEL line: 50% of the users that I see out and about are using the screen to compose their shots. Most have the kit lens on their camera.


It would not be a surprise if Canon slapped an EVF on the rebels next go around (looks to be the SLII) or by 2017 (20 months) if SLII has an OVF.

Is EVF cheaper though?

The other line of thought may be that Canon waits and does all the lines at the same time.... EVF is not that good yet...

 

[Loswr]

This all hinges on AF speed.
Imagine a world where on-sensor AF speed rivalled current DSLR AF.

Speed...and accuracy. I can imagine a world where on-sensor AF speed and accuracy rival current dSLR AF, but we're not there yet.

 

[Moulyneau]

This is the first image that comes to mind when I think about OVF fans

And when EVFs finally supplant OVFs, people may well look like this.

;D ;D ;D So if I understand you correctly guys, EVF'ers have a much higher chance to get bald sooner than OVF'ers! Whether because of radiations or not, I'll stick to the latter...

 

[3kramd5]

This all hinges on AF speed.
Imagine a world where on-sensor AF speed rivalled current DSLR AF.

Speed...and accuracy. I can imagine a world where on-sensor AF speed and accuracy rival current dSLR AF, but we're not there yet.

Is there any data yet to compare the accuracy of DPAF to off-image-sensor PDAF? i presume speed will favor the larger diode dedicated AF sensors, but accuracy would seem to favor using the image sensor itself.

 

[Mt Spokane Photography]

This all hinges on AF speed.
Imagine a world where on-sensor AF speed rivalled current DSLR AF.

Speed...and accuracy. I can imagine a world where on-sensor AF speed and accuracy rival current dSLR AF, but we're not there yet.

Is there any data yet to compare the accuracy of DPAF to off-image-sensor PDAF? i presume speed will favor the larger diode dedicated AF sensors, but accuracy would seem to favor using the image sensor itself.

When the 70D came out, DPR found the DPAF to be more accurate than PDAF. I haven't heard a report on the 7D MK II, but it should be similar.

DPAF is certainly fast enough for 75% of my use, but I'd hate to miss that 25%. Certainly, everyone is looking for a innovative way to speed up non phase detect AF to the point that its close to PDAF. I expected it to have happened this year, but so far, no one is very close.

 

[Aglet]

only a rumor for the moment, but firmware v4 for Fuji XT1 is supposed to arrive this summer and boost some AF performance and add tracking features. I don't have any really fast-focusing lenses to play with but curious to see what they've accomplished.

 

[Bennymiata]

If going mirrorless is supposed to be so simple and cheaper to manufacture, how come mirrorless cameras are so expensive when compared to entry level DSLR'S?
Even the supposedley smaller and lighter lenses aren't so cheap either.

 

[ajfotofilmagem]

If going mirrorless is supposed to be so simple and cheaper to manufacture, how come mirrorless cameras are so expensive when compared to entry level DSLR'S?
Even the supposedley smaller and lighter lenses aren't so cheap either.

I would also like to know the answer to this mystery.

Probably, manufacturers think that buyers of mirrorles lenses and accessories are all wealthy amateurs, not professionals. ???

Professionals buy what you really need, and will give financial return. While amateur buy what looks cute, cool, trendy.