Canon must hurry up on FF mirrorless, Sony's new A9 is killer

[benkam]

20 fps with 24MP sensor
blackout-free EVF
fully silent, vibration-free operation
5-axis in-body IS
693 AF points
AF joystick
2.2X bigger battery than A7-series
dual UHS-II SD slots
among other new features

$4500, priced just above the 5D4 and well below the 1DX2

 

[Loswr]

Go buy one… I'm sure Canon will survive and has no need to hurry.

 

[scyrene]

20 fps with 24MP sensor
blackout-free EVF
fully silent, vibration-free operation
5-axis in-body IS
693 AF points
AF joystick
2.2X bigger battery than A7-series
dual UHS-II SD slots
among other new features

$4500, priced just above the 5D4 and well below the 1DX2

Here in the UK the A9 is priced at £4500 (according to DPR), the 1DxII retails at £4799, so barely any different.

As for the thread title... spec sheet warriors. I doubt the A9 will "kill" anything. Competition is healthy, but I doubt Canon is worried

 

[Mikehit]

Let's see how it handles in real-world use, shall we? Does it shoot 20fps in all conditions, or only compressed raw with some lenses (as the footnotes to its release statement suggest)? Its weatherproofing is ridiculously non-existent for a flagship aimed at the pro sports/wildlife. How will it handle the Canon big whites (wildlife photographers will not be happy limited to 400mm zooms?)

Canons 'consumer level ' mirrorless are gaining ground with every iteration to the point where it is almost ergonomics that make the real difference, and while I can see the A9 as a great upgrade for A7 users I am not sure it will tempt many pros to switch from Canon at that level.

Sony is a great test bed and technology leader rather than market leader. But I am sure Canon will keep closing the gap.

 

[benkam]

Go buy one… I'm sure Canon will survive and has no need to hurry.

LOL if I was shopping in this price range, I absolutely would order one to try.

I'm waiting out for the 6D2 but would definitely look at a probably forthcoming Sony A7 III to compare, especially if Canon don't come up with a mirrorless 6D2.

20 fps with 24MP sensor
blackout-free EVF
fully silent, vibration-free operation
5-axis in-body IS
693 AF points
AF joystick
2.2X bigger battery than A7-series
dual UHS-II SD slots
among other new features

$4500, priced just above the 5D4 and well below the 1DX2

Here in the UK the A9 is priced at £4500 (according to DPR), the 1DxII retails at £4799, so barely any different.

As for the thread title... spec sheet warriors. I doubt the A9 will "kill" anything. Competition is healthy, but I doubt Canon is worried

If Canon came up with something like those specs the Canon faithful would absolutely be drooling and praising them to high heavens.

Yes, competition is healthy, and it would be better, not worse, if the company moved a bit faster. Too slow and it won't be the first industry leader to fall behind because they dragged their feet in adapting to change. Pride comes before a fall and all that.

 

[Loswr]

If Canon came up with something like those specs the Canon faithful would absolutely be drooling and praising them to high heavens.

If Canon came up with something like Sony's abysmal service and support record, the Canon faithful —particularly the professionals— would have deserted Canon already. But some people like to drool over spec sheets, good for them.

Yes, competition is healthy, and it would be better, not worse, if the company moved a bit faster. Too slow and it won't be the first industry leader to fall behind because they dragged their feet in adapting to change. Pride comes before a fall and all that.

Yes, we know. Canon is doomed. YAPODFC. : : :

 

[Mikehit]

Yes, competition is healthy, and it would be better, not worse, if the company moved a bit faster. Too slow and it won't be the first industry leader to fall behind because they dragged their feet in adapting to change. Pride comes before a fall and all that.

If Canon move too slowly you may have a point. But is there any evidence they are moving too slowly?

 

[benkam]

Yes, competition is healthy, and it would be better, not worse, if the company moved a bit faster. Too slow and it won't be the first industry leader to fall behind because they dragged their feet in adapting to change. Pride comes before a fall and all that.

If Canon move too slowly you may have a point. But is there any evidence they are moving too slowly?

The complete lack of any mirrorless FF as of April 2017 and uncertainty if they will even release one this year. Not yet "too" slowly but they sure are moving slowly and they keep at that pace, well.

I, for one, speaking for myself only of course, am eagerly awaiting the 6D2 but really am now more interested in a mirrorless 6D-type. If Sony update their offering at that level around the time the 6D2 comes out, I'd definitely compare both. If Sony trickles down a blackout-free EVF to go with fully silent operation and bigger battery, dual card slots, that sure would be tempting.

 

[Mikehit]

Yes, competition is healthy, and it would be better, not worse, if the company moved a bit faster. Too slow and it won't be the first industry leader to fall behind because they dragged their feet in adapting to change. Pride comes before a fall and all that.

If Canon move too slowly you may have a point. But is there any evidence they are moving too slowly?

The complete lack of any mirrorless FF as of April 2017 and uncertainty if they will even release one this year. Not yet "too" slowly but they sure are moving slowly and they keep at that pace, well.

I, for one, speaking for myself only of course, am eagerly awaiting the 6D2 but really am now more interested in a mirrorless 6D-type. If Sony update their offering at that level around the time the 6D2 comes out, I'd definitely compare both.

So what we have is Sony is the undisputed leader in APS-C mirrorless cameras and makes hardly a dent on the market. They come out with a FF mirrorless and because Canon have not announced one the following day, suddenly it is a portent of market failure.
Why would you expect Canon to be the first to release a FF mirrorless ?
What evidence is there, that there is an absolute imperative to relase one in the next 12 months?
Are you AvTvM in disguise?

If Sony trickles down a blackout-free EVF to go with fully silent operation and bigger battery, dual card slots, that sure would be tempting.

If....
Why would it do any more to boost their current models than they can already do?
The A7RII does 5fps - why is 'black out free' an advantage at those frame rates?
A bigger battery that only does 650 shots? DSLRs still win out there.

 

[Loswr]

The complete lack of any mirrorless FF as of April 2017 and uncertainty if they will even release one this year. Not yet "too" slowly but they sure are moving slowly and they keep at that pace, well.

Mirrorless is ~27% of the ILC market. APS-C cameras, and in the case of MILCs, m4/3 cameras, vastly outsell FF. So Canon is 'slow' and going to 'fall' because they're not yet going after a tiny segment of a minority of the ILC market...a market which Canon has led for 14 years? I suggest you go look for some reality. Trust me, it's out there...even if you can't perceive it.

 

[Steve Balcombe]

A bigger battery that only does 650 shots? DSLRs still win out there.

650 shots @ 20 fps = 32.5 seconds = carry plenty batteries

 

[benkam]

Yes, competition is healthy, and it would be better, not worse, if the company moved a bit faster. Too slow and it won't be the first industry leader to fall behind because they dragged their feet in adapting to change. Pride comes before a fall and all that.

If Canon move too slowly you may have a point. But is there any evidence they are moving too slowly?

The complete lack of any mirrorless FF as of April 2017 and uncertainty if they will even release one this year. Not yet "too" slowly but they sure are moving slowly and they keep at that pace, well.

I, for one, speaking for myself only of course, am eagerly awaiting the 6D2 but really am now more interested in a mirrorless 6D-type. If Sony update their offering at that level around the time the 6D2 comes out, I'd definitely compare both.

So what we have is Sony is the undisputed leader in APS-C mirrorless cameras and makes hardly a dent on the market. They come out with a FF mirrorless and because Canon have not announced one the following day, suddenly it is a portent of market failure.
Why would you expect Canon to be the first to release a FF mirrorless ?
What evidence is there, that there is an absolute imperative to relase one in the next 12 months?
Are you AvTvM in disguise?

Say what? Are you a Canon employee or PR in disguise? I have no stake in Canon. Do you?

Well, I don't expect Canon to be the first to release a FF mirrorless for the obvious reason they can't be that anymore, right?

I like their cameras, that's it, and I've found myself yearning for an EVF and silent operation and all that so I'd like Canon to continue supplying that camera as I'm aiming to jump to full frame. I'd prefer that but I'm not ideologically attached to the brand.

Mirrorless is the future. *ducks in a predominantly DSLR forum* Canon must move more quickly in this arena and not be complacent. As a user, I'd prefer to have the option of a Canon mirrorless FF in 2017 or early 2018 rather than in 2020 or 2025. I don't get why that idea is supposed to be a bad thing.

 

[benkam]

The complete lack of any mirrorless FF as of April 2017 and uncertainty if they will even release one this year. Not yet "too" slowly but they sure are moving slowly and they keep at that pace, well.

Mirrorless is ~27% of the ILC market. APS-C cameras, and in the case of MILCs, m4/3 cameras, vastly outsell FF. So Canon is 'slow' and going to 'fall' because they're not yet going after a tiny segment of a minority of the ILC market...a market which Canon has led for 14 years? I suggest you go look for some reality. Trust me, it's out there...even if you can't perceive it.

No question Canon's a leader now and been so in past years. I've been one of its patrons. The question is the future. IBM didn't care for DOS and Windows until it was too late. A company called Novell, for any kids out there, was once invincible in LANs when they were wired. Nokia and Blackberry thought the iPhone was a fad.

I like the brand's products but not in love with or married to the company. Just an observation here. If Canon are to continue to lead into the future, then lead, as changes are afoot.

 

[Mt Spokane Photography]

Sony is Sony. They excell at making products smaller, and have had success doing that. They seem slow to understand the camera market, first, they thought putting floppy disks into huge (relatively) point and shoot cameras would start a revolution, and a lot of them sold to consumers based on the Sony name. There were two big flaws.

1. File compression resulted in poor images
2. The floppy disk drives were horribly failure prone, and usually died in a year or two, Sony wanted $300 to replace one.

Then, they replaced the Floppy Drive with Memory Sticks, even though SD cards were already the standard. I guess they thought buyers would go for that, and die hard Sony fans did.

Now, they use SD cards, and are putting out tiny but very expensive cameras but lenses are still huge, and they have yet to release some super telephotos, their best are very expensive and do not match the competition. Sure enough, they will sell some, but they still see their market as those who buy anything Sony and are willing to pay a 30% premium. The Sage continues.

 

[H. Jones]

The complete lack of any mirrorless FF as of April 2017 and uncertainty if they will even release one this year. Not yet "too" slowly but they sure are moving slowly and they keep at that pace, well.

Mirrorless is ~27% of the ILC market. APS-C cameras, and in the case of MILCs, m4/3 cameras, vastly outsell FF. So Canon is 'slow' and going to 'fall' because they're not yet going after a tiny segment of a minority of the ILC market...a market which Canon has led for 14 years? I suggest you go look for some reality. Trust me, it's out there...even if you can't perceive it.

No question Canon's a leader now and been so in past years. I've been one of its patrons. The question is the future. IBM didn't care for DOS and Windows until it was too late. A company called Novell, for any kids out there, was once invincible in LANs when they were wired. Nokia and Blackberry thought the iPhone was a fad.

I like the brand's products but not in love with or married to the company. Just an observation here. If Canon are to continue to lead into the future, then lead, as changes are afoot.

In all seriousness, Canon has been around since 1933. They've been here before. When SLR cameras took over, when metering was first included inside a camera, when autofocus was first put into lenses, when the digital revolution took over and killed off film competitors, Canon has seen a lot of changes in its history as a business.

I hardly think that Canon could have forgotten the lessons learned in only the past 20 years while digital took over the market. When Canon decides to release a full-frame MILC, I have no doubt it'll be an extremely refined product.

 

[Loswr]

No question Canon's a leader now and been so in past years. I've been one of its patrons. The question is the future. IBM didn't care for DOS and Windows until it was too late. A company called Novell, for any kids out there, was once invincible in LANs when they were wired. Nokia and Blackberry thought the iPhone was a fad.

I like the brand's products but not in love with or married to the company. Just an observation here. If Canon are to continue to lead into the future, then lead, as changes are afoot.

Canon are leading. In case you missed it, even though Canon has only limited offerings in mirrorless, they are #2 globally in MILC sales, ahead of Olympus and Panasonic (and Fuji isn't even a blip). When they feel the market is ready for a Canon FF MILC, they'll launch one. As I pointed out above, ILC sales are still primarily dSLRs, and despite years of predictions to the contrary, that hasn't changed and shows no signs of doing so any time soon. Perhaps it escaped your attention that Sony tried to compete in the dSLR market...and failed. Utterly. And then in typical Sony fashion, they abandoned the market.

But, Sony is leading, too...in full frame camera sales...based on revenues not units...in the US only...for a two month period. Yay Sony!

By the way, I'd love to have 'failed' like IBM has.

 

[benkam]

I hardly think that Canon could have forgotten the lessons learned in only the past 20 years while digital took over the market. When Canon decides to release a full-frame MILC, I have no doubt it'll be an extremely refined product.

That is my hope too. I'd also like to think they've taken their sweet time because they're refining their first FF mirrorless but like I said, I prefer to see physical evidence of it this year or early next year, not in 2020 or 2025.

 

[scyrene]

Say what? Are you a Canon employee or PR in disguise? I have no stake in Canon. Do you?

Classy. Don't actually engage with people, just accuse them of being shills. Maybe the rest of the world doesn't share your opinions?

Mirrorless is the future. *ducks in a predominantly DSLR forum* Canon must move more quickly in this arena and not be complacent. As a user, I'd prefer to have the option of a Canon mirrorless FF in 2017 or early 2018 rather than in 2020 or 2025. I don't get why that idea is supposed to be a bad thing.

It's a popular and widespread view, but the real question is *when*? People were saying mirrorless was about to overtake DSLRs for several years now, and it hasn't happened. Why is it suddenly urgent now? Why are your predictions (that seem to be based only on your desires and needs) more accurate than all those others'?

No question Canon's a leader now and been so in past years. I've been one of its patrons. The question is the future. IBM didn't care for DOS and Windows until it was too late. A company called Novell, for any kids out there, was once invincible in LANs when they were wired. Nokia and Blackberry thought the iPhone was a fad.

I like the brand's products but not in love with or married to the company. Just an observation here. If Canon are to continue to lead into the future, then lead, as changes are afoot.

Yawn. Other companies have failed in the past, so it must be that Canon will? Along with your ad hominem above, you're showing an aptitude for logical fallacies if nothing else. We've been through this so many times on these forums that it's beyond tedious: mirrorless is not a paradigm shift like smartphones or the switch from film to digital, and Canon is much more clued up (from what we can tell) about market positioning than some of those previous examples. Mirrorless is coming, it's here, but Canon isn't losing market share, and not one of these magical Sony cameras has harmed them. So why do you believe they have to release what *you* want right now or they'll fail?

 

[[email protected]]

I will say this... I am thinking about the 1dX Mark II, and I'm currently borrowing one from CPS to evaluate.

These specs are impressive enough for me to think about Sony, despite my personal experience with their terrible service.

I'd need to see some weather proofing, decent AF on Canon native glass with adapter. But it's now in the consideration envelope.

I'm not one to root for Canon or any other manufacturer. It would be nice if Canon responded in kind, but if Sony fixes its problems and puts out these specs, it's a win for us too.

 

[ahsanford]

I feel like Canon is run by ruthless marketeers who have optimized the model a thousand times to best balance the value of the end product, the quality it is made, and the return they'll get on its offerings. They know we'll stick around as customers with innovation at level X, quality at level Y and price at level Z. They've done the math.

And, in contrast, I feel that Sony is run by coked-up maniacs who only put their chips on the table for innovation and speed to market. I liken it to a teenager being asked to be the CEO of Lamborghini: "It's gotta be faster, it's gotta be cooler, it's gotta have this awesome feature! Now!"

In fairness, they consistently deliver these spec sheet beasts (albeit with some fine print on RAW compression, AF tracking, etc.). But durability, quality, customer support, and quickly building out the lens portfolio appears to be an afterthought with them.

- A