1d IV vs. 7D II

[East Wind Photography]

I used to think the 7DII might come pretty close to FF in IQ and high ISO performance. Until last November, when a thread in CR completely disillusioned me. Next thing, I bought a 5DIII and sold my 7D and I've been kicking myself ever since that I didn't do it a year sooner. So yeah, I totally see what Jrista is talking about [although not cool to use 'trounce' in APS-C vs FF (that too same generation), Jrista, not cool].
I am lucky that I didn't end up waiting for 7DII and be disappointed.

Agreed!

If IQ was my only concern, I could walk into the local bestbuy and grab a 6D for less than what we expect a 7D2 will go for. There is no way short of physics defying magic that the 7D2 will beat it... But for me, I really want a more capable AF system and after playing with the touchscreen interface on a 70D, would like to see the next generation of that too... Hmmmm...... 5D4?

And this is where it gets interesting. If the AF system gets improved that hopefully means more keepers as was the case with the 5DIII and 1DX. So technically the IQ of the camera could be improved with a better more accurate AF system...as we know, Sensor IQ is nothing if the image is fuzzy to start with.

One needs to look at the system and not just one feature. If the 7DII gets an AF system on par with 5DIII or 1DX then that systems is more desirable than a 6D. I would expect a higher keeper rate (At least for subjects that are in action). For me, having tasted the sweetness of the advanced AF systems, I could never go back to the old school 19point or less. I would be disappointed, even if the sensor was noiseless.

Thats just me and buying a camera based on sensor alone is an amateur mistake.

Agreed!
I did not realize how bad the AF was on the 60D until I got into birding and tried a borrowed 5D3..... now I can't imagine getting another camera without a great AF system. My ideal camera would be the sampling density of APS-C and 5D3 (or better) AF system... this is why I am so keenly waiting for the 7D2 and why I did not even consider the 70D...

I picked up a 7d a year ago for a backup camera (again...after selling one to buy a 5diii). If i had to buy one now it would be a 5diii or 1dx if the wife let me. However as a backup the 7d is ok and well its a backup. My intent was/is to replace it with the 7dii. I could easily just replace with another 5diii but i dont feel the need to rush out and make a purchase. I Wou,d rather wait and see if the 7dii has an improved af system...will certainly have better iq than the 7d.

On top of that i have magic lantern installed which stretches the 7d capability a bit and keeps me occupied while i wait for what seems like an eternity for 7dii orders to start. However if the 7dii ends up being just another 70d with enhanced video then i may defer to another 5diii.

 

[Larry]

I'm afraid I have to question the ostrich as a "proxy" for the dodo

Looking at pictures of both, the disparity in leg length seems too great for there to be much similarity in speed.

Still, i'm betting on the dodo over the unicorn, since there at least WAS a dodo,…and a unicorn is unlikely to have shown up for the contest.

Dodo by default!

 

[jrista]

I used to think the 7DII might come pretty close to FF in IQ and high ISO performance. Until last November, when a thread in CR completely disillusioned me. Next thing, I bought a 5DIII and sold my 7D and I've been kicking myself ever since that I didn't do it a year sooner. So yeah, I totally see what Jrista is talking about [although not cool to use 'trounce' in APS-C vs FF (that too same generation), Jrista, not cool].
I am lucky that I didn't end up waiting for 7DII and be disappointed.

Agreed!

If IQ was my only concern, I could walk into the local bestbuy and grab a 6D for less than what we expect a 7D2 will go for. There is no way short of physics defying magic that the 7D2 will beat it... But for me, I really want a more capable AF system and after playing with the touchscreen interface on a 70D, would like to see the next generation of that too... Hmmmm...... 5D4?

And this is where it gets interesting. If the AF system gets improved that hopefully means more keepers as was the case with the 5DIII and 1DX. So technically the IQ of the camera could be improved with a better more accurate AF system...as we know, Sensor IQ is nothing if the image is fuzzy to start with.

One needs to look at the system and not just one feature. If the 7DII gets an AF system on par with 5DIII or 1DX then that systems is more desirable than a 6D. I would expect a higher keeper rate (At least for subjects that are in action). For me, having tasted the sweetness of the advanced AF systems, I could never go back to the old school 19point or less. I would be disappointed, even if the sensor was noiseless.

Thats just me and buying a camera based on sensor alone is an amateur mistake.

Totally agree! Although I think whether the 7D II or 6D is desirable will often depend on what the photographer photographs. If your a macro junkie, I think the 6D would be the superior camera, as you'll very likely be using manual focus and focus stacking anyway. If your an action shooter and cannot afford the 1D X, then the 7D II should be pretty ideal.

 

[jrista]

Do let me know when this thread gets back to a discussion between 1D IV vs 7D II.
Alas, it seems to have run off into another FF vs APS-C discussion...

Everything I've said about FF vs. APS-C applies to APS-H vs. APS-C. It's sensor area that matters, so from a sensor IQ standpoint, the 1D IV wins. The 1D line also gets extra attention to all the fine little details, the small things that require a lot of extra hands on time to tweak and tune and refine. It's a large part of the reason the 1D models cost more...they are highly and optimally tuned. You can ask almost any 1D owner regardless of generation, and most will tell you they love the out of camera quality in every respect...higher sharpness, lower noise, better color fidelity, etc. etc. The same fine tuning applies to all the other non-sensor aspects of the camera as well. The 1D IV had a much better AF system that performed much better than the 1D III and any other Canon camera of the time. It had the high frame rate, the higher performance shutter, etc.

I think it would be very difficult for the 7D II to beat the 1D IV. At best, Canon might achieve parity, and some non-sensor features might be better (i.e. better AF system), but I generally don't think IQ will be better.

And the quality of the build!
Better materials, tighter tolerances, hand matching to specs, all adds up to greater consistency. Another reason why the 1D lineups outperform the rest, particularly after a few drops and tumbles.....

Absolutely! I've used one 1D IV once. It was pretty phenomenal. Even with it's older AF system, it was just amazing how well it performed, how fast it was, how it sounded, how it felt. The 1D X is the same way, just even more refined. If someone offered me either one for a steal, I'd take either one. Doesn't matter to me if the 1D IV is old, it's still a superior camera.

 

[jrista]

I used to think the 7DII might come pretty close to FF in IQ and high ISO performance. Until last November, when a thread in CR completely disillusioned me. Next thing, I bought a 5DIII and sold my 7D and I've been kicking myself ever since that I didn't do it a year sooner. So yeah, I totally see what Jrista is talking about [although not cool to use 'trounce' in APS-C vs FF (that too same generation), Jrista, not cool].
I am lucky that I didn't end up waiting for 7DII and be disappointed.

Agreed!

If IQ was my only concern, I could walk into the local bestbuy and grab a 6D for less than what we expect a 7D2 will go for. There is no way short of physics defying magic that the 7D2 will beat it... But for me, I really want a more capable AF system and after playing with the touchscreen interface on a 70D, would like to see the next generation of that too... Hmmmm...... 5D4?

And this is where it gets interesting. If the AF system gets improved that hopefully means more keepers as was the case with the 5DIII and 1DX. So technically the IQ of the camera could be improved with a better more accurate AF system...as we know, Sensor IQ is nothing if the image is fuzzy to start with.

One needs to look at the system and not just one feature. If the 7DII gets an AF system on par with 5DIII or 1DX then that systems is more desirable than a 6D. I would expect a higher keeper rate (At least for subjects that are in action). For me, having tasted the sweetness of the advanced AF systems, I could never go back to the old school 19point or less. I would be disappointed, even if the sensor was noiseless.

Thats just me and buying a camera based on sensor alone is an amateur mistake.

Agreed!
I did not realize how bad the AF was on the 60D until I got into birding and tried a borrowed 5D3..... now I can't imagine getting another camera without a great AF system. My ideal camera would be the sampling density of APS-C and 5D3 (or better) AF system... this is why I am so keenly waiting for the 7D2 and why I did not even consider the 70D...

Aye, this is pretty much the same boat I am in. The sensor IQ on the 5D III is better as well, but once you start using that AF system, nothing else will really suffice. Ever since I first tried a 5D III a couple years ago now, I've seen all the flaws in the 7D's AF system. The 7D was better than the 9pt systems in it's time, but it definitely has it's issues. The 61pt system seems to be flawless...it's so well designed and perfectly executed. I don't know that I'll be getting a 7D II...I'm pretty set on a 5D III now (for action, landscapes, and astrophotography), but I still really hope the 7D II gets a vastly improved AF system.

 

[thepancakeman]

My take away: Technology marches on. Physics not so much.

I'm really tired of all the "physics doesn't change" arguments. Physics, literally "knowledge of nature" or the science of nature, changes all the time. Nature itself does not change, but our understanding of it (aka physics) and ability to work within it changes on a daily basis.

 

[thepancakeman]

Pixel size doesn't really have anything to do with it. A single pixel doesn't make a picture. Multiple pixels in concert make a picture.

Thank you, thank you, thank you.

I keep hearing "pixel size, pixel size!" and although I don't get the physics like you do, I can tell you that a single, full-frame sized pixel isn't going to take much of picture. :

 

[9VIII]

I used to think the 7DII might come pretty close to FF in IQ and high ISO performance. Until last November, when a thread in CR completely disillusioned me. Next thing, I bought a 5DIII and sold my 7D and I've been kicking myself ever since that I didn't do it a year sooner. So yeah, I totally see what Jrista is talking about [although not cool to use 'trounce' in APS-C vs FF (that too same generation), Jrista, not cool].
I am lucky that I didn't end up waiting for 7DII and be disappointed.

Agreed!

If IQ was my only concern, I could walk into the local bestbuy and grab a 6D for less than what we expect a 7D2 will go for. There is no way short of physics defying magic that the 7D2 will beat it... But for me, I really want a more capable AF system and after playing with the touchscreen interface on a 70D, would like to see the next generation of that too... Hmmmm...... 5D4?

http://www.the-digital-picture.com/Reviews/ISO-12233-Sample-Crops.aspx?Lens=458&Camera=684&FLI=0&API=0&LensComp=458&CameraComp=845&SampleComp=0&FLIComp=0&APIComp=0

It's clear that a crop sensor can match full frame IQ (I posted the 1DIV comparison for relation to the OP) in some circumstances, not many, but it is possible. We're going to need a lot more pixel density on our full frame cameras to go beyond that.

I think people aren't giving enough credit to the processor when talking about low light. It seems pretty clear to me that the biggest upgrade responsible for that 1 stop advantage in the Nikon D4s is the processor.
Sensorgen doesn't have the specs up for that body so I can't say if there has been a significant improvement in QE or not, but at least Nikon seems to advertise that the processor is a major factor. Of course then we have to decide how much we trust marketing.

 

[traingineer]

I used to think the 7DII might come pretty close to FF in IQ and high ISO performance. Until last November, when a thread in CR completely disillusioned me. Next thing, I bought a 5DIII and sold my 7D and I've been kicking myself ever since that I didn't do it a year sooner. So yeah, I totally see what Jrista is talking about [although not cool to use 'trounce' in APS-C vs FF (that too same generation), Jrista, not cool].
I am lucky that I didn't end up waiting for 7DII and be disappointed.

Agreed!

If IQ was my only concern, I could walk into the local bestbuy and grab a 6D for less than what we expect a 7D2 will go for. There is no way short of physics defying magic that the 7D2 will beat it... But for me, I really want a more capable AF system and after playing with the touchscreen interface on a 70D, would like to see the next generation of that too... Hmmmm...... 5D4?

And this is where it gets interesting. If the AF system gets improved that hopefully means more keepers as was the case with the 5DIII and 1DX. So technically the IQ of the camera could be improved with a better more accurate AF system...as we know, Sensor IQ is nothing if the image is fuzzy to start with.

One needs to look at the system and not just one feature. If the 7DII gets an AF system on par with 5DIII or 1DX then that systems is more desirable than a 6D. I would expect a higher keeper rate (At least for subjects that are in action). For me, having tasted the sweetness of the advanced AF systems, I could never go back to the old school 19point or less. I would be disappointed, even if the sensor was noiseless.

Thats just me and buying a camera based on sensor alone is an amateur mistake.

Agreed!
I did not realize how bad the AF was on the 60D until I got into birding and tried a borrowed 5D3..... now I can't imagine getting another camera without a great AF system. My ideal camera would be the sampling density of APS-C and 5D3 (or better) AF system... this is why I am so keenly waiting for the 7D2 and why I did not even consider the 70D...

Aye, this is pretty much the same boat I am in. The sensor IQ on the 5D III is better as well, but once you start using that AF system, nothing else will really suffice. Ever since I first tried a 5D III a couple years ago now, I've seen all the flaws in the 7D's AF system. The 7D was better than the 9pt systems in it's time, but it definitely has it's issues. The 61pt system seems to be flawless...it's so well designed and perfectly executed. I don't know that I'll be getting a 7D II...I'm pretty set on a 5D III now (for action, landscapes, and astrophotography), but I still really hope the 7D II gets a vastly improved AF system.

So in AI servo mode, does the 5D focus much faster and more accurate than the 7D?

 

[jrista]

I used to think the 7DII might come pretty close to FF in IQ and high ISO performance. Until last November, when a thread in CR completely disillusioned me. Next thing, I bought a 5DIII and sold my 7D and I've been kicking myself ever since that I didn't do it a year sooner. So yeah, I totally see what Jrista is talking about [although not cool to use 'trounce' in APS-C vs FF (that too same generation), Jrista, not cool].
I am lucky that I didn't end up waiting for 7DII and be disappointed.

Agreed!

If IQ was my only concern, I could walk into the local bestbuy and grab a 6D for less than what we expect a 7D2 will go for. There is no way short of physics defying magic that the 7D2 will beat it... But for me, I really want a more capable AF system and after playing with the touchscreen interface on a 70D, would like to see the next generation of that too... Hmmmm...... 5D4?

And this is where it gets interesting. If the AF system gets improved that hopefully means more keepers as was the case with the 5DIII and 1DX. So technically the IQ of the camera could be improved with a better more accurate AF system...as we know, Sensor IQ is nothing if the image is fuzzy to start with.

One needs to look at the system and not just one feature. If the 7DII gets an AF system on par with 5DIII or 1DX then that systems is more desirable than a 6D. I would expect a higher keeper rate (At least for subjects that are in action). For me, having tasted the sweetness of the advanced AF systems, I could never go back to the old school 19point or less. I would be disappointed, even if the sensor was noiseless.

Thats just me and buying a camera based on sensor alone is an amateur mistake.

Agreed!
I did not realize how bad the AF was on the 60D until I got into birding and tried a borrowed 5D3..... now I can't imagine getting another camera without a great AF system. My ideal camera would be the sampling density of APS-C and 5D3 (or better) AF system... this is why I am so keenly waiting for the 7D2 and why I did not even consider the 70D...

Aye, this is pretty much the same boat I am in. The sensor IQ on the 5D III is better as well, but once you start using that AF system, nothing else will really suffice. Ever since I first tried a 5D III a couple years ago now, I've seen all the flaws in the 7D's AF system. The 7D was better than the 9pt systems in it's time, but it definitely has it's issues. The 61pt system seems to be flawless...it's so well designed and perfectly executed. I don't know that I'll be getting a 7D II...I'm pretty set on a 5D III now (for action, landscapes, and astrophotography), but I still really hope the 7D II gets a vastly improved AF system.

So in AI servo mode, does the 5D focus much faster and more accurate than the 7D?

In my experience, the 5D III is way faster, far more consistent, and a bit more accurate. The 7D can be accurate, it's just inconsistent. I've had rather poor luck photographing birds in flight, for example. I don't think the problem is my technique...the 7D just has trouble maintaining a lock. It'll lock initially, but then for each frame the AF moves around just enough to kill your keeper rate. The 5D III seems to maintain it's lock much better (especially in expansion or zone modes), so even though it has a lower frame rate, it's keeper rate is similar or higher than the 7D.

The 7D II really needs to get an AF system like the 61pt that Canon put in the 5D III and 1D X. If they reuse the 19pt AF system again, I think that will be a very big mistake.

 

[traingineer]

I used to think the 7DII might come pretty close to FF in IQ and high ISO performance. Until last November, when a thread in CR completely disillusioned me. Next thing, I bought a 5DIII and sold my 7D and I've been kicking myself ever since that I didn't do it a year sooner. So yeah, I totally see what Jrista is talking about [although not cool to use 'trounce' in APS-C vs FF (that too same generation), Jrista, not cool].
I am lucky that I didn't end up waiting for 7DII and be disappointed.

Agreed!

If IQ was my only concern, I could walk into the local bestbuy and grab a 6D for less than what we expect a 7D2 will go for. There is no way short of physics defying magic that the 7D2 will beat it... But for me, I really want a more capable AF system and after playing with the touchscreen interface on a 70D, would like to see the next generation of that too... Hmmmm...... 5D4?

And this is where it gets interesting. If the AF system gets improved that hopefully means more keepers as was the case with the 5DIII and 1DX. So technically the IQ of the camera could be improved with a better more accurate AF system...as we know, Sensor IQ is nothing if the image is fuzzy to start with.

One needs to look at the system and not just one feature. If the 7DII gets an AF system on par with 5DIII or 1DX then that systems is more desirable than a 6D. I would expect a higher keeper rate (At least for subjects that are in action). For me, having tasted the sweetness of the advanced AF systems, I could never go back to the old school 19point or less. I would be disappointed, even if the sensor was noiseless.

Thats just me and buying a camera based on sensor alone is an amateur mistake.

Agreed!
I did not realize how bad the AF was on the 60D until I got into birding and tried a borrowed 5D3..... now I can't imagine getting another camera without a great AF system. My ideal camera would be the sampling density of APS-C and 5D3 (or better) AF system... this is why I am so keenly waiting for the 7D2 and why I did not even consider the 70D...

Aye, this is pretty much the same boat I am in. The sensor IQ on the 5D III is better as well, but once you start using that AF system, nothing else will really suffice. Ever since I first tried a 5D III a couple years ago now, I've seen all the flaws in the 7D's AF system. The 7D was better than the 9pt systems in it's time, but it definitely has it's issues. The 61pt system seems to be flawless...it's so well designed and perfectly executed. I don't know that I'll be getting a 7D II...I'm pretty set on a 5D III now (for action, landscapes, and astrophotography), but I still really hope the 7D II gets a vastly improved AF system.

So in AI servo mode, does the 5D focus much faster and more accurate than the 7D?

In my experience, the 5D III is way faster, far more consistent, and a bit more accurate. The 7D can be accurate, it's just inconsistent. I've had rather poor luck photographing birds in flight, for example. I don't think the problem is my technique...the 7D just has trouble maintaining a lock. It'll lock initially, but then for each frame the AF moves around just enough to kill your keeper rate. The 5D III seems to maintain it's lock much better (especially in expansion or zone modes), so even though it has a lower frame rate, it's keeper rate is similar or higher than the 7D.

The 7D II really needs to get an AF system like the 61pt that Canon put in the 5D III and 1D X. If they reuse the 19pt AF system again, I think that will be a very big mistake.

Interesting, because for me, in AI servo mode/Zone AF, the 7D does tend to have a low keeper rate on anything faster than a person walking.

 

[StudentOfLight]

RE: How far could the 7D-II progress...

Resolution - 18-24Mpx
For practical purposes to print a 2-page spread at 300dpi you would need:
(11.3x300)x(8.7x300)x2 = 17,69 Mega-dots
if you want to use 1 pixel per dot then 17.69 Mpx
18.x Mpx will allow for bleed and minor adjustments (like crop+straightening).

I would prefer the lower end of 18-24Mpx for faster buffer clearing and/or more images in buffer

AF System:
Not sure, but perhaps it is possible to use the same 61pt AF sensor from 1Dx/5D-III but with a different field lens. If this isn't possible I'm sure someone will correct me soon enough...

Noise performance:
Quantum Efficiency could increase to 60%
Read noise could be reduced by 50%
Full Well Capacity (Saturation) increased by 40%

Best case scenario: At least 1 stop improvement over 7D
1.5 Stop improvement in max Dynamic Range
1 Stop improvement in high ISO noise performance
1 Stop improvement in high ISO dynamic range
Color depth increased by 1 bit. (I conjured that figure straight out of thin air)

Worst Case scenario: Less that half a stop better than the 7D
Basically the same image quality as 70D, but with better AF and at higher fps.

 

[StudentOfLight]

The 7D II really needs to get an AF system like the 61pt that Canon put in the 5D III and 1D X. If they reuse the 19pt AF system again, I think that will be a very big mistake.

I agree, I don't like the 19pt diamond layout because you can't select the rule of thirds "power points".

I'd love to see 61pt AF but if that's not possible then at least 27pt:
19 +4(power points) +4(expanded centre column)

 

[Don Haines]

and if anyone is wondering why people are so frustrated with waiting for the 7D2, look at the following graphic....it's already been a year longer then the next longest in production Canon digital camera and at least another half year to go...

and if you look at the cameras currently in production, it has been out for 5 years.... next oldest is the 1DX at a mere 2 1/2 years...

This is why I say that whatever is coming, it's going to be big!

BTW, Thanks Wikipedia for the graphic!

 

[East Wind Photography]

And why I think it will have a big price tag !!!

 

[jrista]

@Don: It looks like those are the paper release dates. The 1D X was announced in 2011, but it didn't actually hit the shelves until early summer 2012 (and maybe even later than that, as a lot of the early models used in the Olympics were ultimately replaced). The 1D X has a technical market life that is even shorter than the 5D III, which means the 7D is that much older than the next oldest Canon camera model.

Either it is REALLY going to be something utterly incredible...or Canon is killing off the 7D line. At this point, I'm beginning to wonder if Canon can really achieve the level of "incredible" the 7D would really need to be to fill the shoes everyone expects it to...

 

[9VIII]

and if anyone is wondering why people are so frustrated with waiting for the 7D2, look at the following graphic....it's already been a year longer then the next longest in production Canon digital camera and at least another half year to go...

and if you look at the cameras currently in production, it has been out for 5 years.... next oldest is the 1DX at a mere 2 1/2 years...

This is why I say that whatever is coming, it's going to be big!

BTW, Thanks Wikipedia for the graphic!

Ah, but this assumes that the 1DX truly is the successor to the 1DS MKIII.
Regardless of how they classify it, Canon will soon be approaching a full decade since they've upgraded the resolution of their full frame sensors.

 

[dtaylor]

Page after page of theorizing mixed with your typical claims that "crop will never do it."

The 70D is the closest glimpse we have at a future 7D mkII. Looking at the Imaging Resource Comparometer I would say the 1D4 is still a bit better at ISO 6400. Though it doesn't appear to be a difference that would matter at the print sizes normally associated with ISO 6400.

ISO 3200...once you've equalized the viewing size...is a wash. Sneezing while your RAW converter is running will make more of a difference than exists between these two sensors at ISO 3200.

I can't imagine the 7D mkII will have worse IQ then the 70D, so yes, I think it will "come close" to the 1D4 and in fact "match" it at ISO 3200 and below. Possibly even at 6400. Especially true if prints are more important to you then going blind studying 300% magnifications in PS.

 

[jrista]

I wouldn't call the difference in noise between the 1D IV and 70D a "wash". Compare the noise test results from DPR:

That's a very noticeable difference. There isn't enough of a difference in image size to completely normalize the results with downsampling (remember, it isn't simply the image dimensions you have to factor in, it is also the difference in sensor area. So simply downsampling the 70D image to 1D IV image dimensions is insufficient to reduce noise to the same levels.)

Personally, based on the gray and black swatches, the 1D IV seems to have quite a bit less noise at ISO 3200 than the 70D. Unless the 7D II hits the streets with a massive improvement in Q.E., I wouldn't expect there to be much of a difference. If Canon really manages to improve their Q.E. to modern standard (i.e. 55-60%), there could be a slight improvement, one that is recognizable over the 70D, but still insufficient to overcome the greater total area benefit of the 1D IV.

 

[dtaylor]

I wouldn't call the difference in noise between the 1D IV and 70D a "wash". Compare the noise test results from DPR:

Why on God's green Earth would I compare RAW files with no NR when I never work that way and neither does anyone else?

If your photography consists of staring at zero NR, ISO 3200 black and gray patches at 100% until your eyes cross, buy a Nikon or a Sony. Then you can boost those RAW files +5 stops and really have some fun staring at patches.