Diko said:
Hi again,
first of all - what-the-hack with that LENSE OFF TOPIC?!? And BTW had any of you imagined a APS-C with L lenses? Like in my case.
Marsu42 said:
jrista said:
Oh yeah, it'll definitely sell. The 7D has been extremely popular, as it fills a fairly unique niche. The 7D II can only be better! How could it not sell?
Because the 6d is there.
In times of 7d & 5d2, the 7d mostly was the most expensive, i.e. "best" model in many stores, so people who wanted something "good" or "solid" were talked into buying that. Whith the 6d price on the decline, they'll probably buy ff quality & wifi/gps instead of 7d2 aps-c features a casual shooter doesn't need.
EXACTLY!!! With 6D into PLAY things get ugly. A game changer was 5D2, then 7D came out better and improved... but APS-C...
Now we have 6D. If anyone states that 5D3 was something great... nope - cheaper 1DX version with reduced features. Now 70D and 7D2... I will be happy to have xxDs back in the pro/amateur league. However I know for 100% that CANON is treating 7D as TOP ASP-C. And
superiour to 6D. That is the way CANON represent it to resellers!!! NO matter the FF, wi-fi, GPS....
I'm curious why you think the 6D even remotely qualifies as competition to the 7D line. The two are radically different parts. The 7D line is all about performance and reach. It has a high frame rate (currently 8fps, rumors put 7D II at 10fps), a higher end AF system (19pt all cross type, rumors put the 7D II at 61pt same as 1D X), a much deeper frame buffer, and a load of other bells and whistles.
The 6D? It is about the most gimped part Canon can possibly make. The fact that it is full frame means nothing in the context of the market position the 7D line fills. The two are incomparable...so it's odd that you compare them in such a way as to indicate the 6D is a 7D killer...IMO, it doesn't even qualify as a contestant for that title, let alone the title holder.
Diko said:
J.R. said:
Don Haines said:
...
There are an awful lot of us that seem to be waiting on the 7D2. It will sell.
+1 ... If the ISO performance is better, it would interest me immensely.
\BTW, I'm not sure of the physics but what sort of processing power would a 21/24MP @ 10 fps require?
2 CPUs - true: they could be either DIGIC 5+ and yet since they have DIGIC 6 it would be better at the same PRICE to put the new one.
Well, I just did the math in a reply to another answer. Here it is again. Assuming some extra masked pixels, ~8%, then we have two sensors with "real" pixel counts of 22.7mp and 26mp. Assuming 14-bit, then the numbers work out as:
22,700,000 * 14 / 8 * 10 = 398mb/s
26,000,000 * 14 / 8 * 10 = 455mb/s
I did calculations in another thread, and I came to the conclusion that each DIGIC5+ chip is capable of processing at a throughput rate of 250mb/s. A pair of them, interleaved as they are in the 1D X, would offer 500mb/s throughput. A pair of DIGIC5+ in the 7D II should be plenty to support a 10fps frame rate at either 21mp or 24mp.
Diko said:
J.R. said:
...
CarlTN said:
One thing is for sure. 5D3 owners will be up in arms over anyone who posts that their new 7D2 is the superior camera...When it comes to Canon fanboys, you just don't mess with the 5D3.
...
Agreed. I feel though that the 7DII will come very close OR may even better the 5D3 under good lighting conditions. High ISO will however, be a different story.
Why not?!?! 5D3 had nothing innovative. It was updated 5D2... For me the only different between 1Dx, 5D3 & 6D is the Speed... AF... you say... 1DX - yes... the rest NO!
jrista said:
Price is a matter of demand, not consumer desire for status. Canon has extremely high demand for their cameras, regardless of their technological status. The percentage of camera owners who care about the minutia of a manufacturers technology is extremely small relative to the total camera buying populace. High demand drives higher prices more than any other factor, with perhaps base commodity (materials) prices and import/export tariffs being close seconds.
Hell yeah! That is what I call MILKING the Canon glass owners. :-(
Um...did you actually READ my post? Canon isn't milking anyone. Market factors over the last five years have pushed commodity prices very high. Even after the recent "crash", they are still quite high, only pulling back to prices from about two years ago (which is considerably higher than they were for the first half of the first decade of the 21st century.) On top of materials costs...there are your BASIC supply and demand factors. Companies don't just sit pretty and "milk" their customers...if the customer thinks the price is too high, they won't buy, and the natural consequence of that is that prices come down. People were more than willing to pay $3500 for a 5D III, and have been more than willing to pay as much as $13,000 for a nice telephoto lens. Those are consumer CHOICES! It has nothing to do with a corporation milking its customers for all they are worth. Canon has to sell at what the market demands, and so long as they can sell and still make a profit, if the MARKET demands a lower price, then a lower price will be had.
Diko said:
jrista said:
Rienzphotoz said:
CarlTN said:
.all for a price that is closer to $2k than $3k
CarlTN, stop scaring me with $3K price ;D lets not even go there ;D ... I want 7D II for around $1600 ... but if the 7D II is released in an APS-H sensor then I will gladly pay up $3K.
I really don't foresee a $3000+ 7D II. Logically, it just wouldn't fit within Canon's lineup. If Canon really is trying to restructure their DSLR offerings, returning the xxxD line to the entry-level realm in the sub-$1000 market, restoring the xxD line to semi-professional grade status in the $1500 market, and placing the 6D at the entry-level/prosumer FF market around $2000, then it seems logical that the 7D II would fill in the gap between the 6D and the 5D.
I see it getting a reasonable feature update...a sensor in the 20-25mp range, 61pt AF (assuming that AF sensor will work for an APS-C crop frame...we might see something like a 41pt AF unit instead, which would still be fantastic!), a higher frame rate (10fps, keeping it in line with the 7D/1D IV ratio relative to the 1D X)...
So far agree!
Diko said:
jrista said:
...better ISO thanks to some of the improvements that found their way into the 1D X, 5D III, and 6D (more translucent CFA and higher SNR) supporting ISO 25600 (and clean ISO 1600 output), and maybe a process shrink to 180nm (to demonstrate Canon is and will be a competitive force in the DSLR world going forward).
What do you mean!?!?
1DX is to be 2 years ago released when 7D2 comes out... +/- a few months... You mean that the new APS-C flagship that is just 6 month away from the 1DX upgrade (remember the big megapixel monster with new generation of technologies that would cost around $10K) will have the same ISO and technology as 5D3?!?
What for?!? I mean - sorry I am missing the
more "revolutionary" than "evolutionary" part here.
Why do things NEED to be "revolutionary"? I mean, what exactly does "revolutionary" get you over "evolutionary"? How is that even a factor at all? If the 7D II offers significantly improved IQ, does it really matter whether the way Canon achieved that improvement is revolutionary or evolutionary? The vast majority of progress is made on the knowledge and backs of what and who came before. There is very little in any industry these days that is truly "revolutionary". The Exmor sensor could be called revolutionary by some, but the trends were already in place when Exmor was introduced...the process move to 180nm had already been done, locating high frequency components away from readout logic had already been done, etc. Most of those advancements HAD to be made for the nanoscopic sensors found in cell phones and the like to produce the kind of quality they do. Sony made one extra leap, from analog readout to digital readout. Revolutionary? Or Evolutionary? Hard to say, although personally, I feel it was part of a continual chain of evolutionary progress that has been occurring for years on the sensor front.
So, if Canon continues to build on their own knowledge in the realm of sensor design and manufacture...and if they reuse some of the improvements they first introduced with the 1D X and 5D III...that would be grounds for you NOT being interested in the 7D II? Seriously?
BTW, if Canon DOES move to a 180nm process, within the domain of Canon, that would be a pretty significant move. They have been on a 500nm process for a VERY LONG time. They have done amazing things with it, but I think it is at EOL. Canon needs to move to a new process. If they DO move to a new process, I think a lot of things will improve for Canon sensors. I think their overall IQ will increase, as they will have a lot more space on die to build noise-reduction circuitry. The relative area that is consumed by logic and wiring will also shrink considerably, even with added circuitry, which leaves more area for photodiode. At any given pixel size, on a 180nm process, the actual light-sensitive photodiode area will increase. An 18mp APS-C 7D II on a 180nm process would have a fairly considerable benefit in terms of FWC over the 18mp APS-C 7D I. That alone would improve noise performance. Improved CDS, on-die readout and digital conversion, column parallel readout, etc. all of which would be possible or more plausible with a process shrink, could also have a significant impact on IQ, reducing noise considerably, potentially even to D800 levels.
That all assumes Canon only moves to what everyone else is using. Rumors have mentioned that Canon is working on getting their process viable for mass manufacture. They could be moving to 180nm, but they have steppers and scanners capable of 90nm manufacture as well. Who's to say Canon isn't working on leapfrogging the competition in terms of process size? A 90nm process in a digital sensor would compound the benefits of moving to a 180nm process!
There is plenty of room for Canon to be "revolutionary". Even if they continue to apply the advancements they made with the 1D X, 5D III, and 6D...they can STILL be "revolutionary", and can still apply some radical improvements to their next sensors.