5D3 Second Curtain Sync - Design Flaw?

[gbchriste]

I've got an event coming up where I need to use a couple of off camera 430EX II flashes fired with Cyber Sync triggers. The setup also will require second curtain synch, which I've never used before. So I've been sitting here going through my 5D3 menus trying to set second curtain synch and just discovered that the only way to do that is to have a powered-on Canon flash mounted on the camera. If you don't have a Canon flash attached and turned on, you can't access the menu to set the shutter synchronization.

Now, I just confirmed that if I attach the flash, set the shutter synch, then dismount the flash and hook it up to my Cyber Sync trigger, the second curtain sync that was previously set will work as expected. I have all camera settings on manual and and as as test, set the shutter to 6 seconds and the flash did indeed fire just before the shutter closed. Then I remounted the flash on the camera, entered the menus and set it back to first curtain synch, dismounted the flash back to a off-camera manual setup, and this time it fired when the shutter opened.

So there is a way to get there. But this obviously is not workable if you need to toggle between first and second curtain sync when using a manual off-camera flash setup, which I may need to do in this situation.

Am I missing something? Is there a way to set the flash curtain synch without having the flash physically connected to the camera and powered on?

 

[DJL329]

As a work-around, how about setting two of the C# settings, one for each configuration?

 

[bigmag13]

you may have to set the sync on the 430's and leave them as is ( they stay at the settings when powered off and back on). I havent tried it with 430's. I am so used to walking over to them or setting the functions on the flash that this has never occurred to try it. It may also be the riggers. I have never noticed the lack of that setting when using PW's.

 

[risc32]

i do off camera lighting all the time. I didn't know there was a workaround to not having the option of rear curtain synch, but honestly i've never needed it. how is it that you know in advance that you are going to be needing to fire two off camera flashes with rear curtain synch? i'm not trying to be a smart ass, i'm rather good at that says the wife, i've just honestly shot lots of weddings and other events and this has never been an issue. probably just shooting shooting something cool with movement that i haven't. also i think i use the same triggers that you are using, but i've gotten to the point where i really only use them for triggering the shutter, and i use the PITA Canon light based master/slave system. I know, it sucks, but i've gotten rather good at operating it quickly and it's nice to have such fine(1/3 stop) adjustments. i'm currently looking at another system...

 

[gbchriste]

As a work-around, how about setting two of the C# settings, one for each configuration?

I'd already given that some thought and that's certainly an option but it seems pretty stupid if Canon is restricting this option solely to configurations that employ a Canon flash. Was there never any thought that Canon body users might be using some other non-Canon flash system and want to employ second curtain synch?

 

[gbchriste]

you may have to set the sync on the 430's and leave them as is ( they stay at the settings when powered off and back on). I havent tried it with 430's. I am so used to walking over to them or setting the functions on the flash that this has never occurred to try it. It may also be the riggers. I have never noticed the lack of that setting when using PW's.

I think you missed the point. Even though my units are Canon 430EX II flashes, the shot envisioned is a 100% manual, off camera, multi-flash set up. So ideally I'd be able to select second curtain flash from the camera menu because the shot set up is going to have the flashes on stands several yards away from me. I don't want to have to mount the flash on the camera for the sole purpose of putting the camera in to second curtain sync mode.

 

[gbchriste]

i do off camera lighting all the time. I didn't know there was a workaround to not having the option of rear curtain synch, but honestly i've never needed it. how is it that you know in advance that you are going to be needing to fire two off camera flashes with rear curtain synch? i'm not trying to be a smart ass, i'm rather good at that says the wife, i've just honestly shot lots of weddings and other events and this has never been an issue. probably just shooting shooting something cool with movement that i haven't. also i think i use the same triggers that you are using, but i've gotten to the point where i really only use them for triggering the shutter, and i use the PITA Canon light based master/slave system. I know, it sucks, but i've gotten rather good at operating it quickly and it's nice to have such fine(1/3 stop) adjustments. i'm currently looking at another system...

I don't mind. I'm a fairly advanced natural light portrait shooter - though not a novice with off camera flash. I've used my Canon 430EX IIs off camera with Cyber Syncs quite a bit. The daughter of one of my dearest friends in the world is getting married in a couple of weeks and the photographer they booked backed out on them. They are desperate and on a tight budget. They came to me begging me to do the wedding. I've been the second shooter on a couple and that was all it took to convince me that I don't want to do weddings.

I've tried multiple times to convince them that I'm not a wedding photographer but they just won't let up on me. So I finally buckled and agreed to do it. One of the conditions was that the bride and her mom come up with the shot list ahead of time and I will work off that list and only that list - no ad libing. They'll give it to me a week a head of the wedding so I have time to plan - and if necessary, practice - each shot.

One of the things she's asked for are some special effects shot with sparklers, like this:

http://www.sparklersonline.com/blog/www-sparklersonline-com-3/wedding-sparkler-photo-tutorial/

Reading through that tutorial, the shot calls for second curtain sync. And I am familiar enough with flash photography to understand why that is the preferred technique.

 

[Mt Spokane Photography]

The setup also will require second curtain synch, which I've never used before.

And, so You posted a subject title that is picked up by search engines, and now spread all over the internet based on your expert finding?

 

[gbchriste]

The setup also will require second curtain synch, which I've never used before.

And, so You posted a subject title that is picked up by search engines, and now spread all over the internet based on your expert finding?

Not sure I understand your point. I don't have an "expert finding". I have a shot that I'm not familiar with in mind that I need to execute that, based on immediately available info, may require second curtain sync with a manual, off-camera flash setup. I may discover between now and then that I don't need second curtain sync. But if it turns out I do, I'd like to be able to accomplish that without going through the logistics of putting a flash on the camera just to access the second curtain sync menu. My specific question was whether anyone else was aware if mounting the flash was actually a requirement to access the second curtain sync menu without first mounting a Canon flash on the camera.

BTW, I am a software engineer by training and trade and from a software engineering and man-machine interface design view point, it seems utterly ridiculous and short sighted to design the menu system with such an obvious limitation in it, if in deed this is the case. And that IS an expert (i.e. me) finding.

 

[bigmag13]

you may have to set the sync on the 430's and leave them as is ( they stay at the settings when powered off and back on). I havent tried it with 430's. I am so used to walking over to them or setting the functions on the flash that this has never occurred to try it. It may also be the riggers. I have never noticed the lack of that setting when using PW's.

I think you missed the point. Even though my units are Canon 430EX II flashes, the shot envisioned is a 100% manual, off camera, multi-flash set up. So ideally I'd be able to select second curtain flash from the camera menu because the shot set up is going to have the flashes on stands several yards away from me. I don't want to have to mount the flash on the camera for the sole purpose of putting the camera in to second curtain sync mode.

K. It just may not be a feature or function with your triggers. I don't have my 3 here ( it's at the Jamesburgh service center for calibration with my 16-35) to test that out, but I do think it's the trigger not allowing or having access to that feature in the menu.
I will test the PW's with the 5D2 to see if they allow it tho. gimme 15mins.

 

[Mt Spokane Photography]

The setup also will require second curtain synch, which I've never used before.

And, so You posted a subject title that is picked up by search engines, and now spread all over the internet based on your expert finding?

Not sure I understand your point. I don't have an "expert finding". I have a shot that I'm not familiar with in mind that I need to execute that, based on immediately available info, may require second curtain sync with a manual, off-camera flash setup. I may discover between now and then that I don't need second curtain sync. But if it turns out I do, I'd like to be able to accomplish that without going through the logistics of putting a flash on the camera just to access the second curtain sync menu. My specific question was whether anyone else was aware if mounting the flash was actually a requirement to access the second curtain sync menu without first mounting a Canon flash on the camera.

BTW, I am a software engineer by training and trade and from a software engineering and man-machine interface design view point, it seems utterly ridiculous and short sighted to design the menu system with such an obvious limitation in it, if in deed this is the case. And that IS an expert (i.e. me) finding.

The point is simple, you are calling it a design flaw, when the flaw is perhaps lack of experience.
Perhaps asking why it is not possible would be a good title, but declaring a design flaw??
Since you are a software engineer, and hopefully, a good one, doesn'y it annoy you when someone who has never used your software before suddenly declares a design flaw, rather than asking how it was designed to work?
If they want to do something else with your software, that might be of value to them, but was not part of the design, it the software buggy?

 

[gbchriste]

you may have to set the sync on the 430's and leave them as is ( they stay at the settings when powered off and back on). I havent tried it with 430's. I am so used to walking over to them or setting the functions on the flash that this has never occurred to try it. It may also be the riggers. I have never noticed the lack of that setting when using PW's.

I think you missed the point. Even though my units are Canon 430EX II flashes, the shot envisioned is a 100% manual, off camera, multi-flash set up. So ideally I'd be able to select second curtain flash from the camera menu because the shot set up is going to have the flashes on stands several yards away from me. I don't want to have to mount the flash on the camera for the sole purpose of putting the camera in to second curtain sync mode.

K. It just may not be a feature or function with your triggers. I don't have my 3 here ( it's at the Jamesburgh service center for calibration with my 16-35) to test that out, but I do think it's the trigger not allowing or having access to that feature in the menu.
I will test the PW's with the 5D2 to see if they allow it tho. gimme 15mins.

No mystery there. The Cyber Sync system is a 100% manual-only radio trigger. The only function it provides is flash firing. No ETTL, no control of flash settings from the camera, etc. So as far as the camera is concerned, there are no flashes in the setup when the Cyber Sync trigger is mounted in the hot shoe.

 

[bigmag13]

you may have to set the sync on the 430's and leave them as is ( they stay at the settings when powered off and back on). I havent tried it with 430's. I am so used to walking over to them or setting the functions on the flash that this has never occurred to try it. It may also be the riggers. I have never noticed the lack of that setting when using PW's.

I think you missed the point. Even though my units are Canon 430EX II flashes, the shot envisioned is a 100% manual, off camera, multi-flash set up. So ideally I'd be able to select second curtain flash from the camera menu because the shot set up is going to have the flashes on stands several yards away from me. I don't want to have to mount the flash on the camera for the sole purpose of putting the camera in to second curtain sync mode.

K. It just may not be a feature or function with your triggers. I don't have my 3 here ( it's at the Jamesburgh service center for calibration with my 16-35) to test that out, but I do think it's the trigger not allowing or having access to that feature in the menu.
I will test the PW's with the 5D2 to see if they allow it tho. gimme 15mins.

Nope, no flaw. It doesnt allow that choice with PW's on my 5D2. which reminds me that I have always kept them in 2nd sync when on stands at receptions, lol. it freezes the dance floor. going crazy at a very young age here!

 

[gbchriste]

The setup also will require second curtain synch, which I've never used before.

And, so You posted a subject title that is picked up by search engines, and now spread all over the internet based on your expert finding?

Not sure I understand your point. I don't have an "expert finding". I have a shot that I'm not familiar with in mind that I need to execute that, based on immediately available info, may require second curtain sync with a manual, off-camera flash setup. I may discover between now and then that I don't need second curtain sync. But if it turns out I do, I'd like to be able to accomplish that without going through the logistics of putting a flash on the camera just to access the second curtain sync menu. My specific question was whether anyone else was aware if mounting the flash was actually a requirement to access the second curtain sync menu without first mounting a Canon flash on the camera.

BTW, I am a software engineer by training and trade and from a software engineering and man-machine interface design view point, it seems utterly ridiculous and short sighted to design the menu system with such an obvious limitation in it, if in deed this is the case. And that IS an expert (i.e. me) finding.

The point is simple, you are calling it a design flaw, when the flaw is perhaps lack of experience.
Perhaps asking why it is not possible would be a good title, but declaring a design flaw??
Since you are a software engineer, and hopefully, a good one, doesn'y it annoy you when someone who has never used your software before suddenly declares a design flaw, rather than asking how it was designed to work?
If they want to do something else with your software, that might be of value to them, but was not part of the design, it the software buggy?

More often than not, when I have an annoyed user, it's because the user has some insight in to how the software should operate, based on their knowledge and experience with the application domain, that I didn't have and didn't take in to account when designing the software. Usually I didn't ask the right questions or probe deeply enough in to their requirements, and the optimal working of the function in question seems so obvious to them that they didn't think it required mentioning.

The design makes absolutely no sense, at least to me. You can't put the camera in to second curtain sync without attaching a Canon flash. So it would seem that Canon's intent is that function should not be operative unless the flash is in fact attached. But I have already proven via trials that once the second curtain sync is set, I can turn off the camera, remove the flash, connect the flash off camera to a "dumb" radio trigger that has no communication with the camera, turn everything back on, and have the second curtain sync operate as envisioned. So if it was Canon's intent that this feature only operate in tandem with a Canon flash, why doesn't it default back to first curtain sync when the flash is removed from the Camera?

I am a good software engineer. At some point there was a design discussion over what text to put on the LCD menu that informs the user they can't access that menu because there is no compatible flash attached (that's what it does). I hope that if I'd been in the design loop I would a question along the lines of, "Hey, what if someone wants to use that function with a non-Canon flash, like maybe Elinchroms or Bowens?"

 

[bigmag13]

The setup also will require second curtain synch, which I've never used before.

And, so You posted a subject title that is picked up by search engines, and now spread all over the internet based on your expert finding?

Not sure I understand your point. I don't have an "expert finding". I have a shot that I'm not familiar with in mind that I need to execute that, based on immediately available info, may require second curtain sync with a manual, off-camera flash setup. I may discover between now and then that I don't need second curtain sync. But if it turns out I do, I'd like to be able to accomplish that without going through the logistics of putting a flash on the camera just to access the second curtain sync menu. My specific question was whether anyone else was aware if mounting the flash was actually a requirement to access the second curtain sync menu without first mounting a Canon flash on the camera.

BTW, I am a software engineer by training and trade and from a software engineering and man-machine interface design view point, it seems utterly ridiculous and short sighted to design the menu system with such an obvious limitation in it, if in deed this is the case. And that IS an expert (i.e. me) finding.

The point is simple, you are calling it a design flaw, when the flaw is perhaps lack of experience.
Perhaps asking why it is not possible would be a good title, but declaring a design flaw??
Since you are a software engineer, and hopefully, a good one, doesn'y it annoy you when someone who has never used your software before suddenly declares a design flaw, rather than asking how it was designed to work?
If they want to do something else with your software, that might be of value to them, but was not part of the design, it the software buggy?

More often than not, when I have an annoyed user, it's because the user has some insight in to how the software should operate, based on their knowledge and experience with the application domain, that I didn't have and didn't take in to account when designing the software. Usually I didn't ask the right questions or probe deeply enough in to their requirements, and the optimal working of the function in question seems so obvious to them that they didn't think it required mentioning.

The design makes absolutely no sense, at least to me. You can't put the camera in to second curtain sync without attaching a Canon flash. So it would seem that Canon's intent is that function should not be operative unless the flash is in fact attached. But I have already proven via trials that once the second curtain sync is set, I can turn off the camera, remove the flash, connect the flash off camera to a "dumb" radio trigger that has no communication with the camera, turn everything back on, and have the second curtain sync operate as envisioned. So if it was Canon's intent that this feature only operate in tandem with a Canon flash, why doesn't it default back to first curtain sync when the flash is removed from the Camera?

I am a good software engineer. At some point there was a design discussion over what text to put on the LCD menu that informs the user they can't access that menu because there is no compatible flash attached (that's what it does). I hope that if I'd been in the design loop I would a question along the lines of, "Hey, what if someone wants to use that function with a non-Canon flash, like maybe Elinchroms or Bowens?"

not jumping on you dude, just saying that it was answered... the triggers just dont do it! it's not the camera that syncs, it sends a signal to the flash to flash twice. I think that's an Electrical Engineers realm tho. I could be wrong tho.

 

[gbchriste]

The setup also will require second curtain synch, which I've never used before.

And, so You posted a subject title that is picked up by search engines, and now spread all over the internet based on your expert finding?

Not sure I understand your point. I don't have an "expert finding". I have a shot that I'm not familiar with in mind that I need to execute that, based on immediately available info, may require second curtain sync with a manual, off-camera flash setup. I may discover between now and then that I don't need second curtain sync. But if it turns out I do, I'd like to be able to accomplish that without going through the logistics of putting a flash on the camera just to access the second curtain sync menu. My specific question was whether anyone else was aware if mounting the flash was actually a requirement to access the second curtain sync menu without first mounting a Canon flash on the camera.

BTW, I am a software engineer by training and trade and from a software engineering and man-machine interface design view point, it seems utterly ridiculous and short sighted to design the menu system with such an obvious limitation in it, if in deed this is the case. And that IS an expert (i.e. me) finding.

The point is simple, you are calling it a design flaw, when the flaw is perhaps lack of experience.
Perhaps asking why it is not possible would be a good title, but declaring a design flaw??
Since you are a software engineer, and hopefully, a good one, doesn'y it annoy you when someone who has never used your software before suddenly declares a design flaw, rather than asking how it was designed to work?
If they want to do something else with your software, that might be of value to them, but was not part of the design, it the software buggy?

More often than not, when I have an annoyed user, it's because the user has some insight in to how the software should operate, based on their knowledge and experience with the application domain, that I didn't have and didn't take in to account when designing the software. Usually I didn't ask the right questions or probe deeply enough in to their requirements, and the optimal working of the function in question seems so obvious to them that they didn't think it required mentioning.

The design makes absolutely no sense, at least to me. You can't put the camera in to second curtain sync without attaching a Canon flash. So it would seem that Canon's intent is that function should not be operative unless the flash is in fact attached. But I have already proven via trials that once the second curtain sync is set, I can turn off the camera, remove the flash, connect the flash off camera to a "dumb" radio trigger that has no communication with the camera, turn everything back on, and have the second curtain sync operate as envisioned. So if it was Canon's intent that this feature only operate in tandem with a Canon flash, why doesn't it default back to first curtain sync when the flash is removed from the Camera?

I am a good software engineer. At some point there was a design discussion over what text to put on the LCD menu that informs the user they can't access that menu because there is no compatible flash attached (that's what it does). I hope that if I'd been in the design loop I would a question along the lines of, "Hey, what if someone wants to use that function with a non-Canon flash, like maybe Elinchroms or Bowens?"

not jumping on you dude, just saying that it was answered... the triggers just dont do it! it's not the camera that syncs, it sends a signal to the flash to flash twice. I think that's an Electrical Engineers realm tho. I could be wrong tho.

Actually, I sort of get what drove the design decision, although I don't agree with it. The "Flash Function Settings" menu includes five features - Manual vs ETTL, Zoom, Exposure Compensation (ETTL only), Power (Manual only), and curtain synch.

All of those except curtain synch obviously require some intelligent communication between the camera and flash and so it makes sense that you wouldn't present those to the user in the absence of a compatible flash. But the last one - curtain sync - doesn't require any intelligent communication between the camera and the flash. The only thing required to make that work is to send the firing signal to the hot shoe or sync cable at the right time, either just after opening the first curtain or just before closing the second curtain.

So it's possible that the designers just found it more convenient to keep that last option together with the others to avoid having to make more space in the menu system.

 

[dmills]

This isn't so much related to the 5d3, as just a workaround to the shot you're wanting. The point of the second curtain is to fire right before the shutter closes. Since this is a long-exposure shot that you're wanting to stage, and it will be in bulb mode, you know when the shutter is going to close. You could always just manually fire your flashes right before you end the exposure.

 

[rpt]

Actually, I sort of get what drove the design decision, although I don't agree with it. The "Flash Function Settings" menu includes five features - Manual vs ETTL, Zoom, Exposure Compensation (ETTL only), Power (Manual only), and curtain synch.

All of those except curtain synch obviously require some intelligent communication between the camera and flash and so it makes sense that you wouldn't present those to the user in the absence of a compatible flash. But the last one - curtain sync - doesn't require any intelligent communication between the camera and the flash. The only thing required to make that work is to send the firing signal to the hot shoe or sync cable at the right time, either just after opening the first curtain or just before closing the second curtain.

So it's possible that the designers just found it more convenient to keep that last option together with the others to avoid having to make more space in the menu system.

I agree. Second curtain synch is a function of the camera and not the flash. It should have been in the camera menu and not in the flash menu that is not displayed when flash is not detected.

I think they took a shortcut.

 

[TrumpetPower!]

I haven't yet needed anything other than first-curtain flash with the 5DIII so I haven't gone looking for it. But I couldn't quite believe that the only way to get to it was by attaching a Canon-branded flash...so I just pulled out my 5DIII, and, sure enough, no way to set first- or second-curtain flash.

This is a bug, plain and simple -- and one that Canon really should fix in the next firmware release. As others have mentioned, first- or second-curtain flash isn't some sort of exotic function that requires special communication with a proprietary flash, it's something basic that dates back to the earliest days of electronic flash and works just fine with even the dumbest possible of PC or hotshoe flashes. If I didn't already own a 580 and thus have a workaround available, I'd be really pissed to learn about this.

b&

 

[kaihp]

This is a bug, plain and simple -- and one that Canon really should fix in the next firmware release.

+1

Either not in the requirements, or not designed right.