5Ds/5DsR & Lens resolution - anomaly (Lensrentals ref.)

mistaspeedy said:
A possible explanation is the ability of the sensor to resolve fine detail.
What if the 5DsR and 5Ds sensors can only resolve detail up to about a score of 1700 and 1600 respectively ?
Think of this as a 'cap' or max value, no matter the lens.
Therefore, on the 300mm lens, they have no problem resolving all of the detail the lens gives them, because it is lower than the values of about 1600-1700.
But when presented with an extremely high quality lens like that Otus, they have hit their limit in resolving power.
The sensors have hit their resolution ceiling and are not resolving significantly more than they do on the 300mm lens.
Now for some calculations!
The Otus is resolving 23.8% more detail on the 5D mark III than the 300mm F2.8.
If we take that 23.8% value and apply them to the 5Ds and 5DsR numbers for the 300mm lens, we should get the following (what the 5Ds and 5DsR 'should be resolving')
5Ds with 85mm Otus: 1702 score [match below with 1701 score]
5DsR with 85mm Otus: 1912 score [match below with 1912 score]
I further confirm these two scores with the following 3 pieces of information listed on the site:
5D mark III with 300mm F2.8 = 1050
5DS with 300mm F2.8 = 1375 = + 30.9% over 5D mark III
5DsR with 300mm F2.8 = 1545 = 47.1% over 5D mark III

Let's now apply these 30.9% and 47.1% differences to the 5D mark III score for the Otus:
1300 + 30.9% = 1701 score
1300 + 47.1% = 1912 score
I'd say those numbers match up nicely!

So I have gone two different routes and gotten the same numbers.
I used the 5D mark III to compare 2 lenses = 23.8% difference
I used the scores on all 3 cameras with the 300mm lens to measure sensor resolving power... it seems that the 300mm lens is sharp enough to show these differences, but not sharp enough to run into a sensor limit.
What about the other Zeiss lens?
5Ds = 27.8% better than 5D mark III
5dsR = 41% better than 5D mark III
What about the Canon 50mm F1.4 ?
5Ds = 19% better than 5D mark III
5DsR = 21% better than 5D mark III

CONCLUSION:
The better the lens, the bigger the differences between sensors! [unless sensor limited]
With the 5DsR, we have:
21% better than 5D mark III on Canon 50mm F1.4
41% better than 5D mark III on Zeiss 21mm F2.8
47.1% over 5D mark III on Canon 300mm F2.8
The 85mm F1.4 Otus did not show these larger differences because we have hit a sensor-resolving limit.
Thank you Andyx01 for bringing this to my attention... you are all free to double-check my math, my logic or to bring your own conclusions!

So the bigger the sensor resolution the smaller the difference between lenses?
So are we expected to see the biggest difference between good and bad lenses on sensors with fewer MP?


mistaspeedy said:
So I have gone two different routes and gotten the same numbers.
I used the 5D mark III to compare 2 lenses = 23.8% difference
I used the scores on all 3 cameras with the 300mm lens to measure sensor resolving power... it seems that the 300mm lens is sharp enough to show these differences, but not sharp enough to run into a sensor limit.

Wouldn't the lenses run into the sensor limit even sooner with the low MP body?
 
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Well, the original title of this thread is quite good, since it states 'anomaly'.

So the bigger the sensor resolution the smaller the difference between lenses?
So are we expected to see the biggest difference between good and bad lenses on sensors with fewer MP?

The data seems to show the opposite, the bigger the sensor the resolution, the bigger the difference between lenses. Which sounds logical as well.
However, we have an anomaly with the scores from the Otus... which I was trying to explain somehow.

If we change the sensor scores for the 5Ds and 5DsR to higher values on the Otus, then everything makes sense, is logical and is as-expected.

That's why I concluded that there was something limiting the scores on the sensor side (which doesn't have to be true).

Just trying to make sense out of something that doesnt make sense (the Otus results with 5Ds and 5DsR) ;)
 
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Andyx01 said:
bchernicoff said:
Another thought. Could false detail be an issue? Here is a quote from the Amateur Photographer review of the 5DS R (http://www.amateurphotographer.co.uk/reviews/dslrs/canon-eos-5ds-r-review/7)

"As we’d expect from a 50MP sensor with no optical low-pass filter, the 5DS R gives remarkable results in our resolution tests. At ISO 50 it resolves very close to its theoretical maximum of 5600l/ph, although with some aliasing and false colour around this point, and plenty of false detail at higher frequencies."

Is it possible Imatest is getting confused? Lensrentals says in the comments that they decided not to publish Otis D810 numbers because: "There was a big enough disparity between the expected result on the Canon and Nikon systems that it through big red flags, so we did not publish that data."

This could be an indication that they are missing something important with their testing methodology.

Yeah something is definately not right. The fact that they don't post certain results because of a dramatic disparity with expectations along with scores that don't add up, really make me wonder.

Reminds me of Monitor Calibration scores.

I've seen horrible screens score dramatically higher then amazing screens due to the values assigned to where some of the plot points were.

If you buy into the score, you can increase your score by re-mapping look up tables.

Even though you now score higher with the adjusted table - the actual image quality suffered dramatically.

Without knowing how they are scoring these, along with the amount of objectionable data, leads me to question the value of these results.

Thanks for the post - makes me feel better about the wonky data :)
Hi All
please refer to my otus 55 review comments and also to my comment in the lens rental blog on filter stack thickness problems for what i believe could be causing SOME of the irregularities ........ie that the otus could be generically designed with nominal filter packet size and not specifically for each versions individual size.While controversy reigns this is my somewhat tongue in cheek take on the latest cameras.

Conan Photographic Corp camera body dept meeting in the recent past:
“Money”grunted the ageing president to a hushed and reverent audience not used to meeting the esteemed man. “While it is true that the Conan corp international group has had so much success in so many other fields that we have perhaps overlooked your small department i thought it wise to conduct some extensive surveys” piped up the newly appointed and enthusiastic CEO.”I sent a couple of people to hang around the street corner near that Nokin Pony place and do you know what ,they saw a lot of familiar faces popping in to see their latest cameras”.”Money” repeated the ageing president conscious(but only barely) of the approaching deadline for the next huge payment to the aptly named “Immortality Gardens”built in his honour.He acutely remembered his cousin Monte Olympus’s memorial gardens being reduced to couple of old pot plants and he certainly wasn’t going to allow that to happen to him. The lanky R and D chief slowly rose”I think i have a solution .Why don’t we just glue a couple of 7d sensors together,a bit of extra computing power and we could have er let me see……50.6 megapixels”.The ever so slightly slimey marketing boss immediately shrieked “ OMG 50 megaaaaapixels “ at the thought of all the marketing opportunities and then promptly wet himself.The cool headed and down to earth accountant finally took the stage .” Well yes but we have all those old mk3 bodies that nobodys going want anymore and the new body will never be designed if you lot in R and D don’t stop playing computer games and do some work , so lets pop it in them, problem solved”.Charlie ,the junior in R and D couldn’t contain himself any longer and needing at least to say something ,jumped up and blurted out “ we could like have 2 models like,sort of like one with and sort of like one without ”.The marketing boss looked as if he needed hospital treatment as he salivated over the idea of selling two models maybe even one of each to the same person.The R and D chiefs head slowly crumpled into his hands while computing the potential problems of aa filter removal,focus stack thickness and a myriad of other thoughts.
HAS CHARLIE THE JUNIOR BITTEN OFF TOO MUCH?
IS THE R and D CHIEFS WIFE GOING TO SEE HIM ANYTIME SOON?
HAS CHARLIE STILL GOT A JOB?
STAY TUNED FOR A THRILLING FINAL EPISODE
 
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mike b said:
Hi All
please refer to my otus 55 review comments and also to my comment in the lens rental blog on filter stack thickness problems for what i believe could be causing SOME of the irregularities ........ie that the otus could be generically designed with nominal filter packet size and not specifically for each versions individual size.While controversy reigns this is my somewhat tongue in cheek take on the latest cameras.

I used to wonder why the 5Ds-"r" was more expensive then the 5Ds

I beleived the 'r' stood for 'removed' filter.

And figured - If the filter wasn't installed, wouldn't it cost LESS not MORE!

However!!! After further review, it turns out the "r" does not stand for 'removed'. Instead, they install ANOTHER filter on top of the existing filter, to effectively cancel it out.

Why would they do this? It was suggested it was done for cost reasons -- however all this talk of stack thickness make me wonder if it was instead done for this reason.

So much conjecture :)
 
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bdunbar79 said:
<Wouldn't the lenses run into the sensor limit even sooner with the low MP body?>

No! Higher resolution sensors will be able to resolve the diffraction sooner (wider apertures, all else equal).

Sorry, it was bugging me.

Yes! - lenses will run into the sensor limit earlier as the sensor resolution falls.

As resolution is increased, the ability of the sensor to record additional information is increased, this also means that diffraction, and other anomalies become more defined where they were otherwise obscured by inadaquate sensor resolution.
 
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However!!! After further review, it turns out the "r" does not stand for 'removed'. Instead, they install ANOTHER filter on top of the existing filter, to effectively cancel it out.

Canon did exactly the same thing with the 5Ds and 5DsR that Nikon did with the D800 and D800E... one with a low pass filter, and the other with a low pass filter, but another filter to cancel it out.
 
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Andyx01 said:
bdunbar79 said:
<Wouldn't the lenses run into the sensor limit even sooner with the low MP body?>

No! Higher resolution sensors will be able to resolve the diffraction sooner (wider apertures, all else equal).

Sorry, it was bugging me.

Yes! - lenses will run into the sensor limit earlier as the sensor resolution falls.

As resolution is increased, the ability of the sensor to record additional information is increased, this also means that diffraction, and other anomalies become more defined where they were otherwise obscured by inadaquate sensor resolution.

I'm sorry, maybe I'm just misunderstanding, but I haven't a clue what you mean. I'm not at all sure what you mean by "limit" and "sooner." So I'll summarize my statement:

As sensor resolution increases, all else equal, you will be able to resolve the diffraction earlier, at wider apertures.

400 f/2.8 at f/6.3 on sensor A (where A = pixel density) may not "see" diffraction at f/6.3.

But put the same lens at f/6.3 on camera 2A and you might very well resolve the diffraction because pixel density is twice as much.

So as pixel density increases, diffraction becomes more apparent at wider apertures, all else equal.

But it doesn't matter, you always get a NET gain in resolution. You may not hit the theoretical twice the resolution gain due to diffraction, but it will be a gain nonetheless.
 
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bdunbar79 said:
Andyx01 said:
bdunbar79 said:
<Wouldn't the lenses run into the sensor limit even sooner with the low MP body?>

No! Higher resolution sensors will be able to resolve the diffraction sooner (wider apertures, all else equal).

Sorry, it was bugging me.

Yes! - lenses will run into the sensor limit earlier as the sensor resolution falls.

As resolution is increased, the ability of the sensor to record additional information is increased, this also means that diffraction, and other anomalies become more defined where they were otherwise obscured by inadaquate sensor resolution.

I'm sorry, maybe I'm just misunderstanding, but I haven't a clue what you mean. I'm not at all sure what you mean by "limit" and "sooner." So I'll summarize my statement:

As sensor resolution increases, all else equal, you will be able to resolve the diffraction earlier, at wider apertures.

400 f/2.8 at f/6.3 on sensor A (where A = pixel density) may not "see" diffraction at f/6.3.

But put the same lens at f/6.3 on camera 2A and you might very well resolve the diffraction because pixel density is twice as much.

So as pixel density increases, diffraction becomes more apparent at wider apertures, all else equal.

But it doesn't matter, you always get a NET gain in resolution. You may not hit the theoretical twice the resolution gain due to diffraction, but it will be a gain nonetheless.

Technically you won't always experiance a gain in image resolution as sensor resolution is increased because of the chance of increased noise with smaller pixels. This is part of the reason for the lower ISO cap on the 5Ds/r, and the reason a 5D Mk IV is also in the works. However you are correct, electronic noise aside: more or less - yes; higher sensor densities will display more detail.

Diffraction is a part of every image at every aperture. In order to actually see / observe / record the effects of it, the following guidline is provided. Please note that guideline is simply when it becomes noticable to an average eye at an average print size with a specific sensor density (size / mp)

subjectively - diffraction typically begins to be noticed to varing degrees as follows:

Crop MP FF

f/1.4 364MP f/2.2
f/2.0 182MP f/3.2
f/2.8 96MP f/4.5
f/4.0 48MP f/6.4
f/5.6 24MP f/9.0
f/8.0 12MP f/12.7
f/11.3 6MP f/18
f/16 3MP f/25.4
f/22.6 1.5MP f/36
f/32 750KP f/50.8
f/45.2 375KP f/72

For what it's worth: 720P HD TV is 922KP, and 1080P HD is: 2MP
 
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Hi All,

This is Brandon from OLAF Optical Testing. I wish to shed some light on this discussion and hopefully put it to rest.

First and foremost I would like to address the suspicion as to why we tested against the D810 but did not post the results.

The system that produces these results contains many elements which cannot be separated from each other, in order we have the chart, the lens, the operator, the imaging sensor, the camera's internal processing, the raw converter, and the software.

The chart is hopefully not a limiting factor. Honestly I do not know if it is, Roger may know for sure, but I do not think it is if it is printed at at least 300ppi knowing its size. The lens, operator, sensor, raw converter, and software are all limiting factors and are imperfect.

Skipping over the lens briefly, consider the sensor which is itself a system. First we have the stack which contains the color filter array, IR and UV cut filters, and the optical low pass filter. Someone here has wondered why canon goes through the effort of canceling the OLPF instead of removing it altogether - I will explain that first.

An OLPF is traditionally made by using a thin piece of a birefringent material. These materials cannot be coated to reduce reflections and have relatively irregular surfaces which can cause quite a bit of scattering. The most suitable materials are only bifringent in one plane, so you can thick of it as splitting "1" into "2" vertically oriented initially. The IR/UV filter is 'plain' coated glass and can have its reflectance reduced to ideal levels, so it comes next. After it comes the second layer of the OLPF. In a 'functional' OLPF the same trick as the first layer is used, but it is oriented in the other axis, turning vertical "2" into square "4." For a canceled OLPF as in the 5Dsr they essentially install the front filter upside down to cancel the first filter. This is imperfect, but it keeps the optical path length the same which is critical.

If you have a converging beam, as exists between the lens and its capture device, the path length for the "center" ray is shortest and the path grows longer as you look to the more peripheral sections of the beam. If you look at this lens diagram - http://i.imgur.com/j4wYtY7.png - and specifically the blue rays, the upper and lower ones have a longer path than the middle one. The OPL of the sensor stack is not constant across manufactures, this is a major source of error when comparing the same lens model across camera brands - we do not know which thickness the lens is designed for.

If you alter the optical path length (which is essentially a form of "apparent length" to light) of the sensor stack, those upper and lower rays will not form the same common focus they used to form with the middle ray, and you get spherical aberration. Thus, keeping the OPL constant is important. The CFA has a simply impact on MTF from a practical standpoint, from a physical standpoint it doesn't have one.

Ignoring the color filter array, which is cemented to the sensor itself and cannot easily be removed, the sensor itself then has a "sum" MTF. The sensor MTF, like a lens' MTF, may be represented as a fourier transform and we can plot contrast vs frequency. In all imperfect systems the MTF will be curved - not linear. If you look at fig 2.3 here - http://spie.org/x34358.xml - note that the sensor MTF hits 0 at a particular frequency and then bounces off zero for a bit. This false detail is what produces aliasing, etc. An ideal OLPF would "brickwall" filter at the zero point, but this is an impossible goal to realize in terms of manufacturing if not design.

The system MTF is simply the multiple of its parts, so SensorMTF*LensMTF=SystemMTF. This is essentially what is being sampled by programs like Imatest (though this is a gross oversimplification).

Worth noting here that films also have their own MTF curves, as sensors do.

From there you get to the raw converter, which does some form of processing to turn a patterned grid of red-corresponding, green-corresponding, and blue-corresponding dots into full RGB matrix dots. This is an uncontrollable factor without writing your own software - the truth is we don't know how dcraw, embedded in Imatest, Canon's DPP software, Adobe, etc, do this except that they use the "best" method they can come up with. This is a major source of error, even if the converter is standardized to a single software.

Moving onto the software - the first stage of using Imatest is to run a software calibration and an alignment calibration. The 300 II is nice here because the camera mounts to it instead, so tilt, etc, usually do not need to be adjusted between cameras. This returns an alignment error quantity - our standard is to have <0.1deg of tilt. We know tilt will damage the result (another source of test error) but we do not know how much, and imatest cannot tell us because they are also unaware of how much difference it makes, is it linear, etc.

Once we get past this result, the software calculates a contrast ratio based on the spread of lines oriented along various angles w.r.t the sensor normal. There are several algorithms internal to the software which adjust the raw number to calibrate various errors in the calculation method and known phenomena, but again they are not something we can control. We do not endorse Imatest or claim that its calculation method is bulletproof, the best method available, etc. These calibrations if not done properly are another source of error. Lenses approaching the diffraction limit should require different corrections than those very far from it - this is a very large source of imprecision.

----

Returning to the lens - the lens' MTF is calculated via a fourier transform of a known source. In the case of design software, the spot is simulated and gets FFT'd. In this article I wrote for photozone recently you can see a manufacture curve in the internal industry standard format - http://www.photozone.de/aberrationsExample

Essentially MTF vs freq gives more information than sampling MTF at specific frequencies and plotting against image height, so we use a different format.

Note that the curve - especially the blue curve - bounces off of zero. This is false resolution due to phase error in the lens. All non-diffraction-limited lenses do this. The better the lens, the higher the spatial frequency it happens at. Usually it is higher than the spatial frequency of the sensor being used. More importantly, the curve is not linear and without knowing it explicitly, how a lens "scales" to different sensors is not something one can even begin to hypothesize accurately. If the 5D3 and 5Ds were both sampling at a spatial frequency in the large, flat, near-zero region of that graph the lenses would appear to improve linearly as sensor res rises, but even the rather soft EF 50mm f/1.4 flattens out like that at a spatial frequency higher than the 5D3 can sample.

With the D810, we basically saw an extremely unnatural scaling between D810:5Dsr with the otus that was not expected. Due to dcraw not being updated and adobe camera raw not being updated, we had to use DPP to process the 5Dsr files and could not guarantee processing integrity. We also do not know which stack thickness the otus is optimized for and therefore which camera has more "lens error" - so the results are invalid anyway.

Between the 5D3 and 5Dsr we are also using different converters, dcraw for the 5D3 and DPP for the 5dsr. In terms of operator error we are using focus bracketing, MLU, etc, but thousands of lenses move through the room this test is done in every day and there are lots of vibrations that can muck with things. The 300 measures better with IS on consistently than with it off. Even with focus bracketing we cannot achieve precisely the same focus between bodies, only that we are at the best of several sample focus points. I.e nuanced differences should not be considered.

This is why we did not post them, nor do we really ever intend to. Speaking frankly and in my own opinion, Imatest and all other camera-based lens analysis tools are crude and poor. We often measure lenses on the MTF bench or OLAF and they look terrible - but they look as good as any "good copy" on camera because the camera is not sensitive enough. Imatest is only useful to us now for comparing cameras, but it is deeply flawed for that purpose. (end opinion).

In terms of Otus vs 300mm comparison, here is the plotted raw data that we used to determine the otus on the 5Dsr was a "good copy" - https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/39289306/TestOtus.pdf - this is at f/1.4, as are all our MTF measurements for the foreseeable future. Here is a different otus that tested worse, so we did not use this copy - https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/39289306/ExampleOtus_2.pdf.

Regarding Amateur Photographer.co.uk - we know little about their testing. We know that:

* if they are backing up between cameras, they are not using a frame-filling chart or their chart isn't high enough res, so already there is a source of error

* refocusing the lens, esp. with asymmetrical (not aspheric, asymmetrical) internal focusing lenses will change performance

* are they using sharpening?

* The non-L 100mm USM is a poor choice of lens for testing cameras with - at the nyquist of the 5Dsr the Zeiss 100mm makro for instance delivers over 2x the resolution on an MTF bench, and has lower sample variation to boot.

* do they have a "good copy" for this - how do they know?

Our bench measurement are made without any kind of flat in the path, so they do not reflect 1:1 performance on camera, but they do allow us to compare all lenses with "infinite" sampling resolution. This particular 4-rotation chart is mostly internal. They need to be too big to show on the blog, but they allow us to very quickly determine if a lens is tilted, etc, so we can verify that every single copy we average is a "good copy". Soon we are launching a new measurement set that we have recorded 220 different lens copies for as of today and will expand by over 100 copies per week at least through august. We will present graphs in this format - average MTF - https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/39289306/EF%2014mm%20f2.8_avg_.png - and the variance plot w/ score - https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/39289306/EF%2014mm%20f2.8_var_.png. We do not yet have enough measurements of different otii to comment on that lens, but this is a $2,000 canon L lens to give you an idea of how big the range between copies can be. Bad copies are already removed from this. I will not explain the charts much - that comes soon during the launch post. Lots of computation goes into the variance plot and it is too much to explain now.

"Will we retest at aperture xxx, with lens yyy, etc etc" - Roger Aaron and I will not, it is not happening. Imatest is very frustrating to work with because there is lots of math done behind the scenes that is not transparent, too many sources of error are not well understood by anyone using the software - not even its makers, and setting up the tests takes forever.

Right now there are over 9,000 items waiting to be inspected during peak season and we have several inspection techs out. We cannot afford the time to test more, and we cannot guarantee result accuracy because of the flaws in camera-based testing.

As frequently as we can we are testing lenses on the MTF bench. It is a "pure" testing methodology and we have control over everything necessary to guarantee accuracy down to +/-0.005. In the range of 0-1.0, this is astronomically smaller than what is possible via something like imatest.

Please let me know if you have any other questions about the test, future numbers, our methods, etc, and I will answer as best I can.

Warmest regards,
Brandon
OLAF Optical Testing
 
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Thanks for your detailed reply. It is always good to hear from someone with knowledge and expertise in the field. As always, I appreciate the time and effort that you and others put into similar tests so that the consumers have an insight into the products and how they are tested.
 
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