Tronhard

Tronhard
Jan 7, 2021
13
19
68
Auckland, New Zealand
I started my photographic career almost exactly 40 years ago, so I am a living fossil from the land of film, Canon A-1's and Nikon F3'. I moved to digital early in the first decade and have been working almost exclusively in that ever since. Back in 2000, when the Canon D30 ( a ground-breaking unit with the first APS-C CMOS sensor) was released, there was a debate about whether is was up to the quality of film.

Micheal Whitman, a respected Canadian photographer, who started the Luminous Landscape website, did a fairly exhaustive comparison of the printed results of the camera against what he regarded as the best in 35mm film, scanning and printing. His results were a surprise to him. Here are links to his reports:
The original overview of the D30: http://www.luminous-landscape.com/reviews/cameras/d30/d30.shtml
Comparison with Film: http://luminous-landscape.com/reviews/cameras/d30/d30_vs_film.shtml
D30 Field Report: https://web.archive.org/web/2003060...scape.com/reviews/cameras/d60/d60-field.shtml

This flew in the face of many entrenched perceptions and I think the same is going on here.

For a start, I would not, under any circumstances, say that one does not have a right to stick with the legacy DSLR technology - I have a menagerie of them that I still keep, use and enjoy them. They give me great results and I like handling them. I even got a D30 (with a massive 3.3MP) and have shot images with it that show it is STILL a capable camera - depending upon what one wants to shoot, and more importantly, what one wants to produce - this image was taken with that, hand-held in available light.
Old Pump House, Museum of Transport and Tech, Auckland, NZ D30, EF 17-40L @ 17mm, f/5.6, 1/8sec, ISO-400
CRW_0212.jpg


My last DSLRs were the EOS 5DsR and 5DIV, plus the EOS 90D. IMHO they are all capable cameras. However, I have also invested in the new tech of the R6 - with its IBIS and AET it is a game-changer for the kind of wildlife shots I take. The EVF is fine for my purposes - I don't find it any more distracting than the flip-up of the mirror.

I think, however, that much as I support your right to use the DSLR technology and that it is still capable, the market has moved into mirrorless and the development and release of new gear is going to be almost exclusively focused on that area. With shrinking camera markets, I don't think that manufacturers will spread their development and production costs across multiple platforms. Of course they want to sell cameras and lenses: that's their business, after all. The performance of EVFs and other technologies will continue to improve as they have done so already with the R5 and R6 compared with the tepid efforts of the R and RF bodies.

I would certainly welcome an R5sR to replace the 5DsR, and a R7 as a replacement for the 7DII.
 
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snappy604

EOS RP
CR Pro
Jan 25, 2017
552
412
I've only been taking photos heavily for maybe 3-4 years, and it still took me MONTHS to adjust to an EVF. There was a long time where I just felt disconnected from what was going on in front of me when using the EOS R. Definitely just felt like watching TV vs actually seeing what was happening in front of me.

From my experience adjusting to an EVF is absolutely not something you can do just trying a camera out in a store or even renting it, even for a few weeks. You just have to take the plunge, and then stick with it until it feels right, even when you just want your flappy mirror back.

I can't really explain it, but I think my brain just got re-wired. The EVF doesn't feel weird anymore. It feels just as natural and connected as a DSLR now. And I also really appreciate having my exposure settings immediately affecting what I see in the viewfiinder in real time. I miss that when going back to a DSLR now.

However one thing I will admit is that seeing the scene in the EVF can be a little misleading at times, especially in low light situations. The EVF by its nature is a backlit display. So very dark areas might tend to look brighter than they will really come through in the photo itself. This is especially true if you have your EVF brightness set too high. You need to keep an eye on the histogram, which is conveniently also available in the EVF.
I checked the EVF on the R and it was not up to par for me.. I bought the R5 and the EVF on it is MILES ahead.. esp with eco mode turned off.

esp if you turn the image review off, i often forget it's EVF vs OVF. I can only imagine it getting better.

I'm firmly in the camp it's a matter of time. There will be edge cases, but overall there is a reason for these moves. Canon resisted longer than most and has done a really good job now.

I've been hearing these arguments from when I first used an epson digital camera with a FLOPPY and 640x480 pixel images..

however, some people like driving and collecting cars from the 20s... there are some things that are cool about it, but doesn't mean they are better... but there is no denying there is a certain something about them.
 

snappy604

EOS RP
CR Pro
Jan 25, 2017
552
412
Canon is clearly still struggling to get their full frame mirrorless technology and processing power up to the point where there is zero lag or blackout/lag when taking photos in the EVF. However, not going to name names, but based on other manufacturers, we have already seen it's possible to do this.

I have no doubt Canon will get there, probably in the next year or two. And at that point, I really don't see any reason to continue to clutch onto an OVF as theoretically superior to an EVF. In fact then at that point the OVF becomes the inferior technology since you still have blackout in the viewfinder for that instant when the mirror flips up. And yes, I understand that at high fps bursts on the 1DX MkII, the DSLR viewfinder blackout is more of just a viewfinder dimming because the mirror is flipping up and down

struggling with blackouts? not seeing that on R5 and expect even better on R3. I did it with mechanical shutter for a continuous 80 or so pics with panning etc and saw very slightly darkening as the shutter activated and de-actived.. not there with the electronic shutter. You have to tweak the settings to optimize (turn off eco for example and stop image review) ... again it's quite a jump on R5 vs R and imagine M series.
 

snappy604

EOS RP
CR Pro
Jan 25, 2017
552
412
The jump to mirrorless is NOTHING like the jump from film to digital. Film to digital FUNDAMENTALLY changed ones approach to photography.
With digital, I went from shooting one or two images of a scene to 20 images. Changing ISO from shot to shot! That was all revolutionary.

Going to mirrorless. . . .meh. . . switching from an optical viewfinder to an electronic viewfinder? Total gamechanger. NOT.

When I went from film to digital. . . .I didn't change lenses. I just bought a new body.
Now. . . going to mirrorless- - -one is looking at buying new (and frankly slow) EF-M lenses. . . .or premium dollar RF glass. It's not just forking out for a new body.

So. . . .more money. . . .less improvement. . . .I can wait on this change.
lol

going to the R5 and Electronic Shutter at 20 FPS it's another jump too.. trying to adjust process to just select a couple of good ones per burst and dump rest.
 

Tronhard

Tronhard
Jan 7, 2021
13
19
68
Auckland, New Zealand
lol

going to the R5 and Electronic Shutter at 20 FPS it's another jump too.. trying to adjust process to just select a couple of good ones per burst and dump rest.
I agree about the change from film to digital being more revolutionary than from DSLR to MILCs.

However I do debate your two sweeping statements about improvements in IBIS and AET, and that one has to buy RF glass.
A lot depends on what one is shooting. For myself as a wildlife photographer, using long lenses both the IBIS and particularly animal eye tracking are a major step forward , especially as I shoot a lot on dense bush where getting a lock in dim light and many leaves and branches is a challenge.
I have shot with quite a bit of EF glass as well as RF unit. I have used EF 70-200 (2.8 and 4 units) 70-300, 100-400 native lenses, plus Sigma 150-600 and 60-600 units, all without issues: using Canon's EF adapter.
 

JohnC

EOS 90D
CR Pro
Sep 22, 2019
158
175
Gainesville,GA
I started my photographic career almost exactly 40 years ago, so I am a living fossil from the land of film, Canon A-1's and Nikon F3'. I moved to digital early in the first decade and have been working almost exclusively in that ever since. Back in 2000, when the Canon D30 ( a ground-breaking unit with the first APS-C CMOS sensor) was released, there was a debate about whether is was up to the quality of film.

Micheal Whitman, a respected Canadian photographer, who started the Luminous Landscape website, did a fairly exhaustive comparison of the printed results of the camera against what he regarded as the best in 35mm film, scanning and printing. His results were a surprise to him. Here are links to his reports:
The original overview of the D30: http://www.luminous-landscape.com/reviews/cameras/d30/d30.shtml
Comparison with Film: http://luminous-landscape.com/reviews/cameras/d30/d30_vs_film.shtml
D30 Field Report: https://web.archive.org/web/2003060...scape.com/reviews/cameras/d60/d60-field.shtml

This flew in the face of many entrenched perceptions and I think the same is going on here.

For a start, I would not, under any circumstances, say that one does not have a right to stick with the legacy DSLR technology - I have a menagerie of them that I still keep, use and enjoy them. They give me great results and I like handling them. I even got a D30 (with a massive 3.3MP) and have shot images with it that show it is STILL a capable camera - depending upon what one wants to shoot, and more importantly, what one wants to produce - this image was taken with that, hand-held in available light.
Old Pump House, Museum of Transport and Tech, Auckland, NZ D30, EF 17-40L @ 17mm, f/5.6, 1/8sec, ISO-400
View attachment 197419

My last DSLRs were the EOS 5DsR and 5DIV, plus the EOS 90D. IMHO they are all capable cameras. However, I have also invested in the new tech of the R6 - with its IBIS and AET it is a game-changer for the kind of wildlife shots I take. The EVF is fine for my purposes - I don't find it any more distracting than the flip-up of the mirror.

I think, however, that much as I support your right to use the DSLR technology and that it is still capable, the market has moved into mirrorless and the development and release of new gear is going to be almost exclusively focused on that area. With shrinking camera markets, I don't think that manufacturers will spread their development and production costs across multiple platforms. Of course they want to sell cameras and lenses: that's their business, after all. The performance of EVFs and other technologies will continue to improve as they have done so already with the R5 and R6 compared with the tepid efforts of the R and RF bodies.

I would certainly welcome an R5sR to replace the 5DsR, and a R7 as a replacement for the 7DII.
I think you mean Michael Reichmann don’t you?
 

snappy604

EOS RP
CR Pro
Jan 25, 2017
552
412
I agree about the change from film to digital being more revolutionary than from DSLR to MILCs.

However I do debate your two sweeping statements about improvements in IBIS and AET, and that one has to buy RF glass.
A lot depends on what one is shooting. For myself as a wildlife photographer, using long lenses both the IBIS and particularly animal eye tracking are a major step forward , especially as I shoot a lot on dense bush where getting a lock in dim light and many leaves and branches is a challenge.
I have shot with quite a bit of EF glass as well as RF unit. I have used EF 70-200 (2.8 and 4 units) 70-300, 100-400 native lenses, plus Sigma 150-600 and 60-600 units, all without issues: using Canon's EF adapter.


er I don't think I said anything about IBIS? not sure what AET stands for .. I have no issues with the EF to RF adapter either, b ut again not sure it was part of my comment here?
 

SteveC

R5
CR Pro
Sep 3, 2019
2,239
2,111
struggling with blackouts? not seeing that on R5 and expect even better on R3. I did it with mechanical shutter for a continuous 80 or so pics with panning etc and saw very slightly darkening as the shutter activated and de-actived.. not there with the electronic shutter. You have to tweak the settings to optimize (turn off eco for example and stop image review) ... again it's quite a jump on R5 vs R and imagine M series.

The comment you were replying to is from September of 2019. When he wrote it there was no R5 or R6.

His complaints made a lot more sense back then.
 

Tronhard

Tronhard
Jan 7, 2021
13
19
68
Auckland, New Zealand
I agree about the change from film to digital being more revolutionary than from DSLR to MILCs.

However I do debate your two sweeping statements about improvements in IBIS and AET, and that one has to buy RF glass.
A lot depends on what one is shooting. For myself as a wildlife photographer, using long lenses both the IBIS and particularly animal eye tracking are a major step forward , especially as I shoot a lot on dense bush where getting a lock in dim light and many leaves and branches is a challenge.
I have shot with quite a bit of EF glass as well as RF unit. I have used EF 70-200 (2.8 and 4 units) 70-300, 100-400 native lenses, plus Sigma 150-600 and 60-600 units, all without issues: using Canon's EF adapter.
Ops! Slibrain fart yes!!!
 

Bdbtoys

R5
CR Pro
Jul 16, 2020
349
255
The comment you were replying to is from September of 2019. When he wrote it there was no R5 or R6.

His complaints made a lot more sense back then.

Yeah, got to watch the OP dates lately. Lot of necros (which is fine, if you keep in mind the time passed).
 
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SteveC

R5
CR Pro
Sep 3, 2019
2,239
2,111
Yeah, got to watch the OP dates lately. Lot of necros (which is fine, if you keep in mind the time passed).

A LOT changed when the R5/R6 came out, and that wasn't all that long ago. Now many have forgotten what it was like beforehand. No worries!!
 
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Bdbtoys

R5
CR Pro
Jul 16, 2020
349
255
A LOT changed when the R5/R6 came out, and that wasn't all that long ago. Now many have forgotten what it was like beforehand. No worries!!
I was agreeing with you. I was trying to expand on what you were saying for the others.
 

SteveC

R5
CR Pro
Sep 3, 2019
2,239
2,111
I was agreeing with you. I was trying to expand on what you were saying for the others.
Huh, what the heck. I thought I was replying to Snappy!

I guess between the time I saw his comment and the time I decided to go back and respond to it, more people had posted and I wasn't careful looking when I hit reply on the bottom post. (What an irony, since I'd pointed out something he failed to notice!)

Sorry about that!!
 

Ruined

EOS R
Aug 22, 2013
914
51
OK, I've been in the photography business for well over 30 years. Don't care if it sounds old fashioned or not, but I do not want to practice my still photography using a TV screen. Optical has a much more natural direct realistic feel to taking pictures. I've been waiting forever for a new high megapixel full frame DSLR to come out like a 5Ds (or sr) Mark II and now I hear junk about a mirrorless instead. I NEVER plan on buying a mirrorless. Am I the only one that feels this way????? If so, I'll stay proud of it. I feel camera manufactures are pushing us towards Mirrorless for only one reason, to sell more cameras to people falling for it. I'm sure someone responding to this question will list all the attributes to mirrorless, but let me be clear....I don't care. In my opinion Optical out weighs them all.
I feel the same way. No plans to buy mirrorless. Will stick with 5d4/5dsr/6d/7d2
 

Del Paso

M3 Singlestroke
Aug 9, 2018
1,141
1,186
I'm still struggling.
Basically, I certainly prefer DSLRs, yet also own an EOS R.
But: I own lots of great (Leica R) vintage lenses, and focusing them with a DSLR is sometimes impossible, MFA simply won't work with them.
But: All new lenses will be for mirrorless.
Therefore, whenever I do not NEED the EOS R, I take the 5 DIV, but my next camera will be, Apo Macro Elmarit oblige, the EOS RsR...
 

Terry Danks

I'm New Here
Sep 2, 2018
15
17
OK, I've been in the photography business for well over 30 years. Don't care if it sounds old fashioned or not, but I do not want to practice my still photography using a TV screen. Optical has a much more natural direct realistic feel to taking pictures. I've been waiting forever for a new high megapixel full frame DSLR to come out like a 5Ds (or sr) Mark II and now I hear junk about a mirrorless instead. I NEVER plan on buying a mirrorless. Am I the only one that feels this way????? If so, I'll stay proud of it. I feel camera manufactures are pushing us towards Mirrorless for only one reason, to sell more cameras to people falling for it. I'm sure someone responding to this question will list all the attributes to mirrorless, but let me be clear....I don't care. In my opinion Optical out weighs them all.
" . . . people falling for it???"

Combative, and stupid! You're a genius and the rest of us are "falling for it?"
See much the same thing with ANY advance in tech.
Some people just will not embrace and adapt change, quite regardless of how significant and advantageous it may be.
Feel "proud" of it all you want. Whatever makes you happy. Most of us see MILC as a great advance . . . and are moving on.
 

JohnC

EOS 90D
CR Pro
Sep 22, 2019
158
175
Gainesville,GA
Interesting to me that this is even a discussion. Hate if you want? Thing is broadcasting it doesn’t further validate a belief or justify a position. I didn’t think I would, but I’m really enjoying mirrorless. It has breathed new (and different) life into my manual focus lenses. To each their own though.

I hate pine straw for mulch, so I don’t use it.
 
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