7D Mk2 ..... APS-H

[Joellll]

The APS-H sensor is a misfit and only came about because of technical restrictions with respect to sensor yield in fabrication. With the technical restrictions now history and the sensor yield problem solved, there is no longer any reason for APS-H sensors to exist.

Consider that it is the underlying sensor technology that is important, not the sensor size. Thus if they can manufacture an APS-H sensor at 16MP then they can build a FF sensor at 27MP with close to the same characteristics. (A 27MP full frame sensor will deliver a 1.3 crop that is 16MP.)

If Canon ever moves their whole APS-C save the xxxxD line to APS-H, it would definitely set Canon apart from other manufacturers.

Of course, that's a very wild thought, and they would have to introduce a new line of lens, but APS-H is still Canon's trump card. If they ever decide to go for a "bigger sensor, more depth of field, more happy customers" idea, well, the competitors will not be able to catch up immediately.

 

[kapanak]

I just cannot comprehend any of this. Why do you want APS-H again? >_>

And if a new 7D-esque body gets APS-H, it will NOT be called 7D MKII ... It will have a different series name.

 

[briansquibb]

I just cannot comprehend any of this. Why do you want APS-H again? >_>

Because it is better than APS-C?

 

[briansquibb]

I just cannot comprehend any of this. Why do you want APS-H again? >_>

Because it is better than APS-C?

APS-H, itself, is not better than APS-C.

What's different is the technology used to make the sensors.

The problem is that in order to deliver 12MP for both APS-H and APS-C, different technology is required because the pixel density on each sensor is different.

As it stands today, APS-C sensors found in cameras released in the last few months more than equal APS-H sensors found in any of the 1D line of cameras.

However there's no free lunch - if I use a fixed 300mm zoom on an APS-C camera to photograph a subject, I'll get a picture with higher detail than I will than if I used an APS-H camera because there are more pixels in the center of the picture where my subject is.

Lower densty, higher iso, less noise shallower dof, better background blur

 

[jimmy156]

The APS-H sensor is a misfit and only came about because of technical restrictions with respect to sensor yield in fabrication. With the technical restrictions now history and the sensor yield problem solved, there is no longer any reason for APS-H sensors to exist.

Consider that it is the underlying sensor technology that is important, not the sensor size. Thus if they can manufacture an APS-H sensor at 16MP then they can build a FF sensor at 27MP with close to the same characteristics. (A 27MP full frame sensor will deliver a 1.3 crop that is 16MP.)

If Canon ever moves their whole APS-C save the xxxxD line to APS-H, it would definitely set Canon apart from other manufacturers.

Of course, that's a very wild thought, and they would have to introduce a new line of lens, but APS-H is still Canon's trump card. If they ever decide to go for a "bigger sensor, more depth of field, more happy customers" idea, well, the competitors will not be able to catch up immediately.

Now there is a thought! If mirrorless CSC cameras take over the bottem end SLR market with M4/3 and APS-C sensors, as some seem to think they might, it would be an exciting (if very bold) move.

However i don't think they would just disregards the ef-s lens line up. Infact i think this would stop them from ever doing it! I for one would be gutted to loose the use of my lovely ef-s 60mm Macro.

 

[briansquibb]

APS-C cameras released in the last few months being as good as the 1d4?

mmm .... must have my memory checked

If they are then I would expect a modern APS-H to leapfrog them by a long way just a ff will keep ahead of APS-H - bigger sensor more capability. APS-C is getting to the limit of its technical capability which is why you seeing them appear in entry level cameras.

 

[moreorless]

I just cannot comprehend any of this. Why do you want APS-H again? >_>

And if a new 7D-esque body gets APS-H, it will NOT be called 7D MKII ... It will have a different series name.

Indeed I'm not really seeing why people think Canon are likely to radically change the position of the existing 7D and xxD lines in the market rather than introduce a new line.

You look at their previous DSLR history and it seems much more likely that a new higher end line will be introduced which makes marketing sense. Why market the previously enthusiast xxD brand as a semi pro camera to reaplace the 7D? why market the semi pro 7D brand to replace the pro 1D brand?

 

[briansquibb]

I just cannot comprehend any of this. Why do you want APS-H again? >_>

And if a new 7D-esque body gets APS-H, it will NOT be called 7D MKII ... It will have a different series name.

Indeed I'm not really seeing why people think Canon are likely to radically change the position of the existing 7D and xxD lines in the market rather than introduce a new line.

You look at their previous DSLR history and it seems much more likely that a new higher end line will be introduced which makes marketing sense. Why market the previously enthusiast xxD brand as a semi pro camera to reaplace the 7D? why market the semi pro 7D brand to replace the pro 1D brand?

I think you are right - the 70D will be as good as the 7D today - so what happens to the 7D? Perhaps they will drop it and make a 3d/6d semi pro sports range with a larger sensor with 18-24mps and top iso performance and 8fps.

Sensors are one area where size does count. There is a finite (financial) limit to how much you can use technology to squeeze out of a fixed size sensor, When it costs more to produce a little one instead of a better, lower tech, big one then the big one will win. PCs give us the clue - the processing power from a single processor has barely increased in the last 5 years - so they have switched to multi cores to provide the extra processing power. The NEX7 may have more mps but the IQ and iso performance is not significantly better.

The argument that higher density APS-C sensors gives better IQ is not born out in practice - look to the 1DX, 5D (and dare I say it - 12mp ff Nikons) are examples where low density sensors give significantly better IQ than high density APS-C - and probably still do today.

 

[wickidwombat]

APS-C does not give better IQ than APS-H all you have to do is look at the samples here at various isos
http://www.thedigitalpicture.com/Reviews/Canon-EOS-7D-Digital-SLR-Camera-Review.aspx
compare the 7D with the 1D4 and even the old 1D3. If the 7D could match the 1D3 i would have retired it long ago and been using a 7D instead however that "fuzziness" you get means the APS-H still has the edge. Who knows what will come in future cameras however I think if they avance the tech of APS-C then APS-H can equally be advanced to continue to provide high IQ levels.

I also personally love using the 16-35 on APS-H as I find it performs better than the 24-70 f2.8 on FF and better than the 17-55 f2.8 on APS-C. thats just my take I am sure lots will disagree though. Personally an APS-H body complements having a FF body perfectly.

 

[tooslick2k]

I just cannot comprehend any of this. Why do you want APS-H again? >_>

And if a new 7D-esque body gets APS-H, it will NOT be called 7D MKII ... It will have a different series name.

Absolutely correct! I dont get why everyone thinks this is gonna happen!

 

[AprilForever]

I just cannot comprehend any of this. Why do you want APS-H again? >_>

And if a new 7D-esque body gets APS-H, it will NOT be called 7D MKII ... It will have a different series name.

Absolutely correct! I dont get why everyone thinks this is gonna happen!

I am SOOOO with you on this one! A 7D is a 7D, and that means APS-C!

 

[Rocky]

The size of sensor for APS-H is 23% larger than APS-C. There is no doubt that given everything elses is equal, the larger the sensor, the better the picture, especially in noise and high ISO performance. Also the larger senser will have a less demand on the resolution of the lenses. However it will bring out more problem in the area of distortion and corner sharpness. The problems with APS-H sensor are that the EF-S lenses cannot be used and there is no wide angle lense is wide enough for some people. On the other hand, how many people needs an wide angle lense wider than 21mm (FF equilvalent)???
Also Canon can give the APS-H sensor camera anyname. It does not have to be a 7D. There is nothing wrong calling the APS-H sensor a 7D. Rules are made to be broken. Canon has already broken their own rule giving us a plastic body 60D. Canon also has 3 1D, 1D, 1Ds and 1Dx is coming.

 

[tooslick2k]

The problems with APS-H sensor are that the EF-S lenses cannot be used...

Which is why Canon would not lose the 7D market by making it a APS-H

 

[wickidwombat]

It doesn't make sense to kill the 7D APS-C for the following reasons
- Wildlife/ sports people need the weather sealled great AF and the 1.6 crop
- It has a big following and there are high quality EF-S lenses that make it a formidable combo

I think the 7D will remain top of the crops, it will make sense to rationalise the lower bunch of crop cameras into 2 or 3 crop models only, I can see the xxxxD series being retired especially with a mirrorless option entering the market.

While I still prefer APS-H myself and I think a new APS-H camera will get a totally new name maybe a 6D be more sporty and priced around where the 5D3 will be up around $3k I guess, the 2 would complement each other well and I think.

 

[Terry Rogers]

I preface this by saying I am not a professional and have never used an APS-H camera before. And I'm sure Canon has had many discussions about the APS-H form factor cost/benefit analysis. But here is my two cents for what it's worth (about two cents).

I can see a continued market for an APS-H form factor in a weather sealed pro/semi pro level body that can autofocus to f8. The intended target for such a camera could be wildlife photographers. Wait... Canon has such a camera now in the 1D IV and have chosen to eliminate it with the 1D X! They must have a reason behind this move. Will the 1D X have better image quality than the 1D IV? Almost certainly. BUT, being full frame and "only" 18mp, it won't have the extra reach due to pixel density many who use super telephoto lenses desire.

Seeing no currently announced camera in Canon's lineup will autofocus at f8, my uninformed guess is we'll see a camera designed for the wildlife photographer so they can use their massive (and very expensive) 500 and 600mm f/4 lenses with a 2x teleconverter and maintain autofocus.

Maybe a 7d Mk II will autofocus at f8 and will become the go to body for wildlife photographers. Or maybe not. APS-H seems to be the compromize between 1.6 crop reach and ff image quality.

Again, my two uninformed cents.

 

[wickidwombat]

If the 1Dx doesnt have f8 AF then I very much doubt any lower model will thats always been one of the big 1D differentiators.

 

[Terry Rogers]

If the 1Dx doesnt have f8 AF then I very much doubt any lower model will thats always been one of the big 1D differentiators.

If Canon decides not to include f8 autofocus on any other cameras, I suspect they will loose market share to nikon.

 

[nicku]

The only way that Canon will ''beat'' the new Nikon D400 ( with in my opinion will be a better camera than 7D) is to use an APS-H sensor with say 21MP and the ability to use EF-s lenses on the camera at a 14-15 MP final resolution.

5DMK3 certainly will have a full frame sensor, and 1DX is FF also. At this point the APS-H sensor is not in use anymore ( except 1Dmk4 that will be discontinued eventually).

I believe this will be the smartest market move from canon.

 

[moreorless]

I just cannot comprehend any of this. Why do you want APS-H again? >_>

And if a new 7D-esque body gets APS-H, it will NOT be called 7D MKII ... It will have a different series name.

Indeed I'm not really seeing why people think Canon are likely to radically change the position of the existing 7D and xxD lines in the market rather than introduce a new line.

You look at their previous DSLR history and it seems much more likely that a new higher end line will be introduced which makes marketing sense. Why market the previously enthusiast xxD brand as a semi pro camera to reaplace the 7D? why market the semi pro 7D brand to replace the pro 1D brand?

I think you are right - the 70D will be as good as the 7D today - so what happens to the 7D? Perhaps they will drop it and make a 3d/6d semi pro sports range with a larger sensor with 18-24mps and top iso performance and 8fps.

Sensors are one area where size does count. There is a finite (financial) limit to how much you can use technology to squeeze out of a fixed size sensor, When it costs more to produce a little one instead of a better, lower tech, big one then the big one will win. PCs give us the clue - the processing power from a single processor has barely increased in the last 5 years - so they have switched to multi cores to provide the extra processing power. The NEX7 may have more mps but the IQ and iso performance is not significantly better.

The argument that higher density APS-C sensors gives better IQ is not born out in practice - look to the 1DX, 5D (and dare I say it - 12mp ff Nikons) are examples where low density sensors give significantly better IQ than high density APS-C - and probably still do today.

As I said I think its more likely that they'd keep the 7D line and drop the xxD line while introducing a new ASPH line(3D?). The 7D right now is a much stronger brand than the 70D would be so I'd say it would make sense to keep it around even if its downgraded a little(or more likely stays still).

Now there is a thought! If mirrorless CSC cameras take over the bottem end SLR market with M4/3 and APS-C sensors, as some seem to think they might, it would be an exciting (if very bold) move.

This seems like the most likely way ASPH could be used to me, it would give a Canon mirrorless a boost in IQ/DOF over its ASPC rivals and seperate it from the G1X without pushing the price too high. The main probablem with ASPH on SLR's would also be gotten round(no lenses with focal lenghts/image circles aimed specifically towards it) since any mirrorless system would have a new range of lenses created for it.

 

[briansquibb]

This seems like the most likely way ASPH could be used to me, it would give a Canon mirrorless a boost in IQ/DOF over its ASPC rivals and seperate it from the G1X without pushing the price too high. The main probablem with ASPH on SLR's would also be gotten round(no lenses with focal lenghts/image circles aimed specifically towards it) since any mirrorless system would have a new range of lenses created for it.

Does it matter that EF lens are slightly too big?? I dont see that as a problen - anymore than using L lens on APS-C

Make TSE lens work better is the plus side.

I like the idea of a mirrorless APS-H - it will be fun to see it outperform a 'proper' camera