A 2014 Roadmap Part 1: The 7D Mark II is Coming [CR2]

dgatwood said:
jrista said:
dgatwood said:
jrista said:
dgatwood said:
jrista said:
As a side note, since it would take an increase to 82% Q.E. for the 7D II to gain a true ONE stop improvement in high ISO performance, we can never hope to see a true two stop improvement. The 7D II, nor any successor, nor any new pro-grade APS-C line of cameras from Canon or anyone else, will ever perform as well as a FF sensor that has larger pixels. So long as the average pixel size for FF sensors remains larger than the average pixel size for APS-C sensors, FF sensors will always perform better at high ISO. Nothing we can do about that...its just physics.

Well, there are a few tricks that Canon could do. For example, if a camera used a series of fast exposures, the camera could do motion vector analysis on various parts of the image, then add them programmatically after compensating for camera and subject motion, resulting in roughly the same image as you'd get with the shorter shot length (blur-wise), but with the SNR of the longer shot length. However, that's way beyond the realm of sensor tech. :)

How would that work with a selectable shutter speed, though? I mean, if I as the photographer chose a 1/1250s shutter speed, a single exposure that long is going to be better than multiple separate exposures blended together. You'll lose light in the interframe time as well, so gain would have to be higher...

You're assuming a mechanical shutter. Consider a vertically stacked sensor that can push its value down to a buffer deeper in the silicon or, for simplicity, an interline transfer design. You can then sample the image with no rolling shutter (bette for video) and no delay between shots. If a mechanical shutter is desirable for some reason, open it before the first frame and close it at the end.

It matters not whether the shutter is mechanical or electronic. What matters is that the PHOTOGRAPHER selects the EXPOSURE TIME (shutter speed). Shutter speed is shutter speed, regardless of whether the shutter is mechanical or electronic. If the photographer chooses a 1/2000th shutter speed, then that is AS LONG AS the camera can expose. Trying to make a better exposure by taking several short exposures within that 1/2000th window is likely impossible. At the very least, there is going to be some lag time for read or "ship the charge off to a buffer" between each partial exposure. That lag time is going to cost you light. Because shutter speed is a user selectable quantity of time, gathering light for that total time is the best we can do.

Other way around. The user typically chooses an exposure time with the primary goal of avoiding blur from camera or subject motion. If the user allows the camera to do so, however, the camera could use a much longer exposure than what the user selected, dicing that long exposure up into pieces of the user-specified length, and compensating for motion to approximate an exposure of the user-chosen duration while gaining increased accuracy in portions of the image that did not change significantly or exhibited only trivial transformation, such as shifting one way or the other, similar to the way MPEG compression reduces data rate by describing portions of one frame in terms of adjacent frames.

BTW, with an electronic shutter, there should be very little (if any) gap between frames. Some CCDs with electronic shutters can dump hundreds or even thousands of frames per second, which means that the gap can't be much more than single-digit or perhaps double-digit microseconds, either of which would almost certainly be completely ignorable.

As far as I can tell, the hard part is not the sensor side; it's being able to dump ten times as many RAW-sized images to the flash card so that such post-processing would even be possible. It's almost certainly infeasible right now, but I'd expect it to be pretty easy to do in just a few years. It could be substantially longer before cameras would have fast enough CPUs to do that sort of processing internally, of course. Alternatively, it might be possible sooner with the use of some sort of perverse RAW-MPEG encoding in which each subsequent frame in the set is described relative to the first, but the compute power required would be... considerable.

As an added bonus, with an electronic shutter, the camera could examine a few shots before and after the moment when the user presses the shutter like an iPhone does, choosing the least smeared, and defaulting to using that one as the base frame for correction purposes. Whether shots taken before the lens fully focuses are useful or not is a different question, but I figure that by the time we see something like I'm describing, we'll probably also have light-field sensors that will make those shots almost usable.... Or not. Hard to say.

This sounds conceptually along the same lines as lytro...capture as much information in an exposure as possible, and deal with everything else in post. It is an interesting idea, but it is actually a fairly significant shift from how photographers thing about things now. I am not so sure how viable allowing the camera to control the actual exposure time really is.

In my case, I expect to know exactly how long the shutter is. It isn't just about compensating for or eliminating subject motion blur, it is more about compensating for camera shake (yes, even with IS or on a tripod.) If a photographer expects an exposure to be a known tiny fraction of a second, but the camera decides it will be a much larger fraction of a second, the likelihood of the camera user moving the camera themselves in a detrimentally significant way is very real. The camera, rather than the photographer, now determines how long the shutter is "open" (mechanical or electronic), rather than the photographer, and that is a hidden quantity...the photographer doesn't know, and assuming there was some kind of feedback mechanism to allow them to know, it is still a very different way of performing photography, and the chance for human error is very real and significant.

While the idea could, theoretically, allow for infinite dynamic range, I think it would require retraining photographers to think differently...and that is never an easy thing to do.
 
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exposure time should remain completely under (stills) phtotographer's discrete control.
It is much more tahn only a technical parameter to achieve "correct" exposure of a scene and/or images free from shake-induced blur and from motion-induced blur when moving subjects are in the scene.
While for many images photographers will be happy with an exposurte time in a fairly wide range, there are many other situations, where we want to set a specific exposure time to achieve certain effects in the image .. from completely frozen motion t0 "dragging shutter" to consciously make motion blur show up. This would be defeated if the actual exposure was a composite of a series of "nano-sliced" exposure times selected at the camera algorithms' discretion. To me only acceptable in operating modes where exposure time is already currently set by program parameters/algorithms ... "green box", Av, P - but definitely not in Time Value ("Tv") or Manual ("M") mode.
 
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I don't see why setting exposure time with single shot HDR is such a hard thing to grasp. If the camera just tells you the longest exposure of the group, and you already set how many shots per group and the difference in exposure per shot, everything is a known quantity.
All we need is an "HDR" slot on the mode dial.
 
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AvTvM said:
exposure time should remain completely under (stills) phtotographer's discrete control.

Oh, it would be, under what I was describing. You'd set your exposure time, and then in post, you could control which adjacent subframes get merged in and which ones don't (including using just the single subframe). When viewed in-camera, it could either make an educated guess or show you just the single subframe, depending on user preference.
 
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dgatwood said:
AvTvM said:
exposure time should remain completely under (stills) phtotographer's discrete control.

Oh, it would be, under what I was describing. You'd set your exposure time, and then in post, you could control which adjacent subframes get merged in and which ones don't (including using just the single subframe). When viewed in-camera, it could either make an educated guess or show you just the single subframe, depending on user preference.

That means the results are entirely arbitrary. You aren't doing exposure at all, your simply ripping out a bunch of frames agnostic if an explicit exposure time. I think that is even conceptually more difficult for most photographers to grasp (not to mention MASSIVELY wasteful of space). Again, it could theoretically allow you to have infinite DR, but it would make photography very difficult, rather than very easy (and it's never been easier than it is today.)

Exposure control needs to be under photographer control. You can't arbitrarily take a photograph and then decide exposure in post...you could massively underexpose if a majority of the frames ended up "unusable" once you got it all onto a computer. This isn't an argument about an option for improving sensor sensitivity or dynamic range, it is a discussion about redesigning the entire way we do photography, which I think is out of context.

9VIII said:
I don't see why setting exposure time with single shot HDR is such a hard thing to grasp. If the camera just tells you the longest exposure of the group, and you already set how many shots per group and the difference in exposure per shot, everything is a known quantity.
All we need is an "HDR" slot on the mode dial.

We weren't originally talking about HDR. We were talking about sensor performance, and how to improve it (at a fundamental technical level, abstract of any actual specific use case.)
 
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jrista said:
dgatwood said:
AvTvM said:
exposure time should remain completely under (stills) phtotographer's discrete control.

Oh, it would be, under what I was describing. You'd set your exposure time, and then in post, you could control which adjacent subframes get merged in and which ones don't (including using just the single subframe). When viewed in-camera, it could either make an educated guess or show you just the single subframe, depending on user preference.

That means the results are entirely arbitrary. You aren't doing exposure at all, your simply ripping out a bunch of frames agnostic if an explicit exposure time. I think that is even conceptually more difficult for most photographers to grasp (not to mention MASSIVELY wasteful of space). Again, it could theoretically allow you to have infinite DR, but it would make photography very difficult, rather than very easy (and it's never been easier than it is today.)

Exposure control needs to be under photographer control. You can't arbitrarily take a photograph and then decide exposure in post...you could massively underexpose if a majority of the frames ended up "unusable" once you got it all onto a computer. This isn't an argument about an option for improving sensor sensitivity or dynamic range, it is a discussion about redesigning the entire way we do photography, which I think is out of context.

Not really. I'm not talking about summing; I'm talking about averaging. The user experience would be exactly the same as it is now, at least on the camera side. If you asked such a camera for a 1/250th shot, it would take a 1/250th shot. It would just also silently take several more 1/250th shots, choose the least blurred, show you that one, and make the others available for future manipulation and processing that could further reduce noise by doing interframe correlation, motion compensation (motion of parts of the image, not just the image as a whole), and blending. You'd have to make pretty major changes to the processing workflow to take maximum advantage of such a feature, but it wouldn't fundamentally change photography by any stretch of the imagination.

I don't think you could do it the other way—using shorter exposures and summing them to get enough of a signal so that you could choose the exposure in post-processing—because that would significantly increase the effect of preamplifier noise coming off the sensor, barring some sort of supercooled hardware.


jrista said:
9VIII said:
I don't see why setting exposure time with single shot HDR is such a hard thing to grasp. If the camera just tells you the longest exposure of the group, and you already set how many shots per group and the difference in exposure per shot, everything is a known quantity.
All we need is an "HDR" slot on the mode dial.

We weren't originally talking about HDR. We were talking about sensor performance, and how to improve it (at a fundamental technical level, abstract of any actual specific use case.)

Actually, I basically was. The way most cameras approach HDR is almost precisely what I was describing; the only differences are in whether you change the exposure in subsequent shots and in the processing on the back end.
 
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thanks, but no thanks. :-)

I only take HDR sequences as a measure of last resort and when use it, I want to have it all entirely under my direct control - at time of capture, not only in post, wading through dozens or hundreds of shots. I want to chose how many exposures and all parameters of these.

I don't want anything more along the lines of "all cameras being video cams and stills being just single frames extracted from the video stream". No, no, no.

I also don't like the approach taken e.g. in Nikon 1 where the thingie klicks off a number of shots before you even fully press the shutter button and then attempts to select "the best" capture.

Sometimes I just like it blurred. Even if my camera and its japanese engineers cannot understand why. :-)
 
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AvTvM said:
I don't want anything more along the lines of "all cameras being video cams and stills being just single frames extracted from the video stream". No, no, no.

You're getting it wrong...
I'm sure, when you use your 7D it isn't always shooting 7-8fps...
If you have 24fps or higher... you just have more chances to capture the perfect moment.
E.g. when a lion pounces on a wilder beast or when a eagle grabs a trout from a river, when Beckam bends it.

People that own a 14fps 1DX.... do you wish for higher?
If so why?
If not, why is 14fps perfect or why not settle for less?
 
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mkabi said:
AvTvM said:
I don't want anything more along the lines of "all cameras being video cams and stills being just single frames extracted from the video stream". No, no, no.

You're getting it wrong...
I'm sure, when you use your 7D it isn't always shooting 7-8fps...
If you have 24fps or higher... you just have more chances to capture the perfect moment.
E.g. when a lion pounces on a wilder beast or when a eagle grabs a trout from a river, when Beckam bends it.

People that own a 14fps 1DX.... do you wish for higher?
If so why?
If not, why is 14fps perfect or why not settle for less?

I don't have, I would like to have as I see my bursts sometimes off by that fraction of a second for the while burst.

now when in video mode I think it is easier to capture that videoo is because of the less pixles we are working with. Try pumping out full fram pixels for 30 minutes at 60f/sec how many TB of storage are ya gong to need.
 
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I see. Ignoring the limitations of current technology, rather than having all the photosites fill and read once after a set time, you could instead record many short exposures and combine them however you please in post to make the desired exposure. Theoretically it should be able to come to the exact same end result, just with the flexibility to trim or add exposure time and dynamic range.
 
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mkabi said:
AvTvM said:
I don't want anything more along the lines of "all cameras being video cams and stills being just single frames extracted from the video stream". No, no, no.

You're getting it wrong...
I'm sure, when you use your 7D it isn't always shooting 7-8fps...
If you have 24fps or higher... you just have more chances to capture the perfect moment.
E.g. when a lion pounces on a wilder beast or when a eagle grabs a trout from a river, when Beckam bends it.

People that own a 14fps 1DX.... do you wish for higher?
If so why?
If not, why is 14fps perfect or why not settle for less?

There is a point where you end up with too many frames. At 8fps, I get a LOT of frames. It is a lot of work to wade through them all in post. I imagine 12fps is even more heavy duty work to pick out the good ones and weed out the bad ones in post. Then you have to process them all, and while you can do some of that in bulk, you still have to fine tune each photo. At 24fps or higher, you would just have WAY too many frames to deal with. Not only is that going to use an immensely greater volume of disk space, but it would begin to exponentially increase your workload in post. I can't even imagine what 30 or 60 frames per second would be like...one fraction of a second would get you a dozen frames, a SHORT few-seconds would get you hundreds of frames. It's impractical to have that many frames to deal with in post.

That's why, with a 1D X, you have the handy option of configuring a "slow" burst rate that is lower than 12fps, because you don't necessarily always want so many frames for all kinds of action. Some action benefits from a larger separation between frames, rather than less, and fewer frames is easier to deal with in post. Unlimited frames is not really a good thing, it needlessly increases your workload with rapidly diminishing returns when you get around 20fps and higher.
 
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jrista said:
mkabi said:
AvTvM said:
I don't want anything more along the lines of "all cameras being video cams and stills being just single frames extracted from the video stream". No, no, no.

You're getting it wrong...
I'm sure, when you use your 7D it isn't always shooting 7-8fps...
If you have 24fps or higher... you just have more chances to capture the perfect moment.
E.g. when a lion pounces on a wilder beast or when a eagle grabs a trout from a river, when Beckam bends it.

People that own a 14fps 1DX.... do you wish for higher?
If so why?
If not, why is 14fps perfect or why not settle for less?

There is a point where you end up with too many frames. At 8fps, I get a LOT of frames. It is a lot of work to wade through them all in post. I imagine 12fps is even more heavy duty work to pick out the good ones and weed out the bad ones in post. Then you have to process them all, and while you can do some of that in bulk, you still have to fine tune each photo. At 24fps or higher, you would just have WAY too many frames to deal with. Not only is that going to use an immensely greater volume of disk space, but it would begin to exponentially increase your workload in post. I can't even imagine what 30 or 60 frames per second would be like...one fraction of a second would get you a dozen frames, a SHORT few-seconds would get you hundreds of frames. It's impractical to have that many frames to deal with in post.

That's why, with a 1D X, you have the handy option of configuring a "slow" burst rate that is lower than 12fps, because you don't necessarily always want so many frames for all kinds of action. Some action benefits from a larger separation between frames, rather than less, and fewer frames is easier to deal with in post. Unlimited frames is not really a good thing, it needlessly increases your workload with rapidly diminishing returns when you get around 20fps and higher.

What do you mean, you have to process them all?

If the 1D X has the option of slowing burst rate from 12fps, you think they won't slow it down from 24fps?
Even Magic Lantern allows you to increase and slow down fps... and thats in video mode... I can shoot from 1 or 2fps to all the way to 35fps at 1080p using FPS override.

@Jrista specifically... you currently have the 7D, and you use the 600mm f/4 on it.
I'm sure the 600mm cost you a pretty penny. I've checked out your pictures (on your site), I'm sure you're happy with them, right?

Why not upgrade to FF, instead of wasting your time with APS-C?
And, use extenders to give you that extra reach?

@ Everyone else... Lets be real, look at canon history.... 7D to t2i to 60D to t3i to t4i to t5i... all had the same sensor.
70D comes out, new sensor.... what do you really think is going to be in 7D mark ii? A newer sensor from the 70D? Not a friggin chance....

Even if they took away the video mode, its still going to have 70D sensor in it... canon history shows that....
You're just wasting your breath complaining... if you're happy with the current 7D, stick with it.

I remember reading someone emailing Canon directly about getting a camera to compete with the D800, and they replied back that it is a niche market. Cause it is... a niche market...
Hasselblad, Leica, Mamiya, Phase One.... they cater to this niche market... none of those cameras have video... Image quality is through the roof... but so is price.
 
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Don Haines said:
mkabi said:
What do you mean, you have to process them all?

This raises an interesting question..... Can you batch process images in Lightroom?

You guys aren't quite understanding. You have to process them all...not necessarily manually tweak each and every image. You have to go through them all and pick keepers and rejects. Not every frame will be ideal. You have to FIND the ideal frames. You have to look at them at full size to identify which ones are ideal. Some frames may appeal ideal as a thumbnail, but end up obviously blurry when viewed at full size. There is no quick way to identify picks and rejects. THAT is a VERY time consuming process, and gets more and more time consuming as RAW image sizes get larger. Having 1-2 second bursts that result in 40-60 frames is insane. Not only would you need terrabyte sized memory cards, you would need tens of terrabytes of disk space to store everything, unless you don't keep the majority of your shots (personally, I keep as much as I can, and only literally delete obvious rejects...plainly out of focus, wildly motion blurred, etc.)

At 60fps, a 2 second burst is 120 frames. That's just a ludicrous amount of data, no matter how you look at it. I would be very happy with 10fps...8fps is sometimes just slightly too short on occasion, and a slightly higher frame rate would fix that. But I wouldn't ever want 20 or more...just far too much data to deal with, requiring a much greater expenditure in storage space across the board. Impractical.

Also, don't forget...keywording, metadata, and any other form of organization of your images. I tend to tune the keywords for and explicitly add metadata to each of the images I do not reject to improve searchability.
 
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Don Haines said:
mkabi said:
What do you mean, you have to process them all?

This raises an interesting question..... Can you batch process images in Lightroom?

Answered my own question..... Yes, you can batch process images in Lightroom..... Kind of shoots the "increased workload with higher frame rates" argument in the foot....
 
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mkabi said:
jrista said:
mkabi said:
AvTvM said:
I don't want anything more along the lines of "all cameras being video cams and stills being just single frames extracted from the video stream". No, no, no.

You're getting it wrong...
I'm sure, when you use your 7D it isn't always shooting 7-8fps...
If you have 24fps or higher... you just have more chances to capture the perfect moment.
E.g. when a lion pounces on a wilder beast or when a eagle grabs a trout from a river, when Beckam bends it.

People that own a 14fps 1DX.... do you wish for higher?
If so why?
If not, why is 14fps perfect or why not settle for less?

There is a point where you end up with too many frames. At 8fps, I get a LOT of frames. It is a lot of work to wade through them all in post. I imagine 12fps is even more heavy duty work to pick out the good ones and weed out the bad ones in post. Then you have to process them all, and while you can do some of that in bulk, you still have to fine tune each photo. At 24fps or higher, you would just have WAY too many frames to deal with. Not only is that going to use an immensely greater volume of disk space, but it would begin to exponentially increase your workload in post. I can't even imagine what 30 or 60 frames per second would be like...one fraction of a second would get you a dozen frames, a SHORT few-seconds would get you hundreds of frames. It's impractical to have that many frames to deal with in post.

That's why, with a 1D X, you have the handy option of configuring a "slow" burst rate that is lower than 12fps, because you don't necessarily always want so many frames for all kinds of action. Some action benefits from a larger separation between frames, rather than less, and fewer frames is easier to deal with in post. Unlimited frames is not really a good thing, it needlessly increases your workload with rapidly diminishing returns when you get around 20fps and higher.

What do you mean, you have to process them all?

See my reply to Don's last message.

mkabi said:
If the 1D X has the option of slowing burst rate from 12fps, you think they won't slow it down from 24fps?
Even Magic Lantern allows you to increase and slow down fps... and thats in video mode... I can shoot from 1 or 2fps to all the way to 35fps at 1080p using FPS override.

I am saying that 24fps is beyond the level where most photographers would want to deal with the output. At 20fps and beyond, it's just too much data. There are plenty of times when I think I get too many shots with my 7D...I've spend a considerable amount of effort trying to hone my skill with the shutter button, in an attempt to reduce as much as possible the excess...at this point, I generally get 3-5 frames a burst, and I am generally able to get just the action sequences I want.

mkabi said:
@Jrista specifically... you currently have the 7D, and you use the 600mm f/4 on it.
I'm sure the 600mm cost you a pretty penny. I've checked out your pictures (on your site), I'm sure you're happy with them, right?

I am satisfied with some of them. I'm a perfectonist, and in my opinion, I still have a long road ahead of me...

mkabi said:
Why not upgrade to FF, instead of wasting your time with APS-C?
And, use extenders to give you that extra reach?

I fully intend to. Buying a $13,000 lens tends to drain you of excess funds for a while. ;)


mkabi said:
@ Everyone else... Lets be real, look at canon history.... 7D to t2i to 60D to t3i to t4i to t5i... all had the same sensor.
70D comes out, new sensor.... what do you really think is going to be in 7D mark ii? A newer sensor from the 70D? Not a friggin chance....

Even if they took away the video mode, its still going to have 70D sensor in it... canon history shows that....
You're just wasting your breath complaining... if you're happy with the current 7D, stick with it.

You are conveniently ignoring what Canon themselves have explicitly said about the 7D II. It WILL get a new sensor, and possibly even a new name to go along with whatever "special" think they intend to do with it.
 
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Don Haines said:
Don Haines said:
mkabi said:
What do you mean, you have to process them all?

This raises an interesting question..... Can you batch process images in Lightroom?

Answered my own question..... Yes, you can batch process images in Lightroom..... Kind of shoots the "increased workload with higher frame rates" argument in the foot....

Please see my previous answer. It isn't the actual processing. You can batch that, but at least in my case, after batch applying initial edits, each of my picks inevitably needs additional processing. Batch just reduces that part of the workload. The part of post processing that I am referring to, however, is not the editing, its the culling, organizing, etc.
 
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jrista said:
You are conveniently ignoring what Canon themselves have explicitly said about the 7D II. It WILL get a new sensor, and possibly even a new name to go along with whatever "special" think they intend to do with it.

Am I conveniently ignoring? I don't care if I am wrong, but....
Please provide a link to this official press release by Canon.
 
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mkabi said:
jrista said:
You are conveniently ignoring what Canon themselves have explicitly said about the 7D II. It WILL get a new sensor, and possibly even a new name to go along with whatever "special" think they intend to do with it.

Am I conveniently ignoring? I don't care if I am wrong, but....
Please provide a link to this official press release by Canon.

Oh, by the way... if you have found this "official press release" and they did say that the "7D II will receive a new sensor" technically the sensor from the 70D put into the 7D II is a "new" sensor compared to the original 7D. You can't argue with them if they put in the dual pixel 70D sensor into the 7D, "oh but you said that the 7D II will receive a new sensor" they will say that is a new sensor.
 
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mkabi said:
Oh, by the way... if you have found this "official press release" and they did say that the "7D II will receive a new sensor" technically the sensor from the 70D put into the 7D II is a "new" sensor compared to the original 7D. You can't argue with them if they put in the dual pixel 70D sensor into the 7D, "oh but you said that the 7D II will receive a new sensor" they will say that is a new sensor.

No, no, no - Canon will not be quite SOOO cheap. Almost, but not quite. ;D

Even with my rather low expectation regarding Canon's innovative zest :-) - I do expect the 7D II (whatever it may be called) .. to be announced in 2014 to NOT have the 70D sensor .. but something "slightly improved" ... say 24 MP and 0.1 EV better DR ... and of course Dualpixel-AF and other "video Optimization" on board. ;D

I am rather sure ... because otherwise even Canon could not possibly charge USD/€ 2500 for the 7D II (whatever its goin to be called) ... lol
 
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