A Big Megapixel Discussion

[Hillsilly]

After attending a Pele Leung presentation last night, it is very interesting to see how some professionals have countered the limitations of a 16mp sensor through stitching techniques. Many of his images end up being more than 100mp in size with exceptional detail and sharpness. Bit of an eye opener to see what's possible, but just makes me want a high MP camera!

 

[M.ST]

No DSLR is a medium format camera killer. I like the images from the H5D-60. If you are in the fashion and fine arts business this camera is the one and only.

But the new big megapixel camera(s) from Canon are really good.

I don´t have such a strap (maybe a fake or new) and no type label on my camera.

I expect the EOS 7D Mark II (and or 70D) announcement in August/September 2013 and the EOS 3D (2D) announcement in October 2013.

Different prototypes are tested over a long time. The big question is: Can Canon produce the cameras quickly and without quality problems.

But Nikon is not sleeping. I expect the big megapixel D4X announcement as well in October 2013.

Hint: I don´t know what Canon put on the market, but the 46.1 MP, 5 frame per second, Dual DIGIC 5+,
ISO 50-12800, 1DX AF, 2 CF Card slots works really good.

 

[Zv]

Confused about this whole medium format thing. So why do you need 100 megapixels for fashion? Is that for advertising on billboards? Other than that am I missing something? Better image quality?

 

[M.ST]

The camera has only 60 megapixels.

Customers want the best image quality and high megapixel images for big worldwide campaigns (big prints for walls, facades and billboards).

What the customer get ins only what the customer want.

No DSLR is a medium format camera killer = No DSLR can beat the image quality of a medium format camera until now. On the other side the DSLR is much faster, weather sealed, good in low light and able to use fast shutter speeds.

There is no one-for-all-camera. Every camera has it´s pros and cons.

 

[insanitybeard]

WE WANT BETTER PIXELS

NOT JUST MORE OF THEM!

Your pixels will be smaller....

Strewth Don, I had to strain my eyes to read that ;D At first I thought it was some grey line or error!

 

[jrista]

No DSLR is a medium format camera killer. I like the images from the H5D-60. If you are in the fashion and fine arts business this camera is the one and only.

But the new big megapixel camera(s) from Canon are really good.

Hint: I don´t know what Canon put on the market, but the 46.1 MP, 5 frame per second, Dual DIGIC 5+,
ISO 50-12800, 1DX AF, 2 CF Card slots works really good.

Are you claiming that you have actually USED a Canon "Big Megapixel" prototype? So far, there have only been rumors about such things, no concrete information whatsoever. Your claim sounds a little far fetched, but if it is true, then it would be pretty major rumor news for CR...

 

[Fleetie]

No DSLR is a medium format camera killer. I like the images from the H5D-60. If you are in the fashion and fine arts business this camera is the one and only.

But the new big megapixel camera(s) from Canon are really good.

Hint: I don´t know what Canon put on the market, but the 46.1 MP, 5 frame per second, Dual DIGIC 5+,
ISO 50-12800, 1DX AF, 2 CF Card slots works really good.

Are you claiming that you have actually USED a Canon "Big Megapixel" prototype? So far, there have only been rumors about such things, no concrete information whatsoever. Your claim sounds a little far fetched, but if it is true, then it would be pretty major rumor news for CR...

M.ST has been posting stuff for quite a while now that makes it clear that he is one of those who get to test out Canon's cameras before we get to hear about them officially.

He's clearly subject to an NDA.

So (IMO) let's keep listening to what he has to say and let's not push him to reveal more.

I am prepared to believe he has access to the information he shares, so I enjoy reading his "hints".

 

[jrista]

No DSLR is a medium format camera killer. I like the images from the H5D-60. If you are in the fashion and fine arts business this camera is the one and only.

But the new big megapixel camera(s) from Canon are really good.

Hint: I don´t know what Canon put on the market, but the 46.1 MP, 5 frame per second, Dual DIGIC 5+,
ISO 50-12800, 1DX AF, 2 CF Card slots works really good.

Are you claiming that you have actually USED a Canon "Big Megapixel" prototype? So far, there have only been rumors about such things, no concrete information whatsoever. Your claim sounds a little far fetched, but if it is true, then it would be pretty major rumor news for CR...

M.ST has been posting stuff for quite a while now that makes it clear that he is one of those who get to test out Canon's cameras before we get to hear about them officially.

He's clearly subject to an NDA.

So (IMO) let's keep listening to what he has to say and let's not push him to reveal more.

I am prepared to believe he has access to the information he shares, so I enjoy reading his "hints".

Well, if that's the case, then I have to say that 46.1mp, 5fps, and 61pt AF sounds pretty damn nice. The ISO range makes me curious as well...starting at ISO 50....really makes me wonder if DR will be extremely good! I'd be pretty happy with that for my landscape and astrophotography work.

I am extremely curious about the 46.1mp count specifically, though, as such a sensor wouldn't necessarily need a new CMOS fabrication process to achieve...Canon could produce it with the same process, same exact pixels, as the current 18mp APS-C sensor. Canon's 18mp sensor isn't well known for its IQ....

I really hope this camera uses a new fabrication process...something other than the ancient 500nm process that Canon has been using for the last decade. I really want the IQ of this sensor to excel, and offer maximum DR at base ISO, maximum Q.E. at max ISO, and superior quality overall.

 

[privatebydesign]

No DSLR is a medium format camera killer. I like the images from the H5D-60. If you are in the fashion and fine arts business this camera is the one and only.

But the new big megapixel camera(s) from Canon are really good.

Hint: I don´t know what Canon put on the market, but the 46.1 MP, 5 frame per second, Dual DIGIC 5+,
ISO 50-12800, 1DX AF, 2 CF Card slots works really good.

Are you claiming that you have actually USED a Canon "Big Megapixel" prototype? So far, there have only been rumors about such things, no concrete information whatsoever. Your claim sounds a little far fetched, but if it is true, then it would be pretty major rumor news for CR...

M.ST has been posting stuff for quite a while now that makes it clear that he is one of those who get to test out Canon's cameras before we get to hear about them officially.

He's clearly subject to an NDA.

So (IMO) let's keep listening to what he has to say and let's not push him to reveal more.

I am prepared to believe he has access to the information he shares, so I enjoy reading his "hints".

M.ST is has been shown on many occasions to have no advanced or insider knowledge what so ever. Do not put any thought into anything he posts, he even promised to stop doing it once but obviously he can't help himself M.ST is a charlatan.

 

[Sporgon]

One of the points that everyone is missing when comparing a very high MP FF camera to MF, is that the latter uses a longer focal length to achieve the same field of view. This is even more pronounced on a LF camera.

Ever wondered why a landscape shot on a 10x8 has a certain je ne sais quoi ? It's not just the resolution.

 

[pedro]

The banding noise issues are the result of high frequency components, particularly when they are off-die. Sony Exmors design was implemented in the way it was implemented to achieve more than just high dynamic range at low ISO. Fundamentally, Exmor's Column-Parallel ADC is designed to support high speed digital readout. Certainly, increasing frame rate from 4fps to 10fps will increase noise contribution a little (that's the consequence of high frequency logic), but Exmor has such a low read noise level that you could effectively double it, and still have one of the cleanest readouts in the world.

It is not improbable that we could see high res, high readout rate sensors at 8-10fps within the next couple of generations of DSLR sensors. I don't suspect it will happen by next year, but I do expect it to happen.

Hopefully it happens with a 5DIV (frequently shooting a 5DIII) or 5DV. Wrong camp, I know, but I guess new tech will be applied in other bodies too. As I am all for highest possible ISOs...

 

[Loswr]

One of the points that everyone is missing when comparing a very high MP FF camera to MF, is that the latter uses a longer focal length to achieve the same field of view. This is even more pronounced on a LF camera.

Ever wondered why a landscape shot on a 10x8 has a certain je ne sais quoi ? It's not just the resolution.

What's the relationship between focal length and je ne sais quoi?

Note that when one uses a longer focal length with a larger sensor to acheive the same FoV as a shorter lens with a smaller sensor, there's no difference in perspective.

 

[Sporgon]

One of the points that everyone is missing when comparing a very high MP FF camera to MF, is that the latter uses a longer focal length to achieve the same field of view. This is even more pronounced on a LF camera.

Ever wondered why a landscape shot on a 10x8 has a certain je ne sais quoi ? It's not just the resolution.

What's the relationship between focal length and je ne sais quoi?

Note that when one uses a longer focal length with a larger sensor to acheive the same FoV as a shorter lens with a smaller sensor, there's no difference in perspective.

True, but there is a difference in magnification

 

[CarlTN]

It will be interesting to see if Canon can actually achieve parity with the current SOA sensor, regarding those attributes that people like to argue about. What would be mind blowing, is if Canon actually exceeds those attributes...regardless of the pixel dimensions. It seems to me that if the number is closer to 60MP rather than 45, the performance might be more compromised. Certainly it will be difficult to make use of all that resolution outside the center 50% of the image on most, if not all Canon lenses...even the 24-70 ii.

 

[privatebydesign]

One of the points that everyone is missing when comparing a very high MP FF camera to MF, is that the latter uses a longer focal length to achieve the same field of view. This is even more pronounced on a LF camera.

Ever wondered why a landscape shot on a 10x8 has a certain je ne sais quoi ? It's not just the resolution.

The reason 8x10 images are so distinctive has nothing to do with the lenses, which are comparatively poor performers when compared to good 135 format lenses, or resolution, or indeed format size, it is because people only ever shoot black and white images of rocks, dead trees, and swamps with them.

Equivalence takes care of all the rest. The difference in magnification is taken care of by a larger coc that is needed by the poor lenses. At 350mm for a standard lens you need heaps more aperture to achieve the same dof, a fast lens that is totally unusable wide open is an f6.5. 8X10 cameras and lenses were designed for contact prints, not scanning and enlarging, you need to do a lot of work on a scanned 8X10 sheet to make it look good enlarged.

Now find me one person that can tell the difference between an 8x10 contact sheet print from an 8X10 camera and a 24mm TS-E image from a 5D MkIII shot for equivalence, and I will show you somebody who understands the zone system and tonal gradation. Your "je ne sais quoi" has nothing to do with the lenses or format, it has everything to do with sensors and film.

 

[Pi]

What's the relationship between focal length and je ne sais quoi?

He did tell you that he did not know...

 

[unfocused]

I have to wonder if the convergence of technologies may soon make the big megapixel discussion obsolete or at least more complicated.

Software solutions for upscaling are becoming extremely sophisticated. I recently used On-One's Perfect Resize on some cropped 7D images that I wanted to print at 20 x 30. I was amazed at the quality. Adobe's latest Photoshop CC has a new resizing engine as well.

In theory, upscaling may not be as good as having the original image shot at the desired resolution, but "in theory" doesn't always match real world practice, especially when it is impossible to tell the difference in the final print.

 

[Pi]

I have to wonder if the convergence of technologies may soon make the big megapixel discussion obsolete or at least more complicated.

Software solutions for upscaling are becoming extremely sophisticated. I recently used On-One's Perfect Resize on some cropped 7D images that I wanted to print at 20 x 30. I was amazed at the quality. Adobe's latest Photoshop CC has a new resizing engine as well.

In theory, upscaling may not be as good as having the original image shot at the desired resolution, but "in theory" doesn't always match real world practice, especially when it is impossible to tell the difference in the final print.

No mathematical trickery can remedy lack of information. Cornelius Lanczos

 

[jrista]

It will be interesting to see if Canon can actually achieve parity with the current SOA sensor, regarding those attributes that people like to argue about. What would be mind blowing, is if Canon actually exceeds those attributes...regardless of the pixel dimensions. It seems to me that if the number is closer to 60MP rather than 45, the performance might be more compromised. Certainly it will be difficult to make use of all that resolution outside the center 50% of the image on most, if not all Canon lenses...even the 24-70 ii.

Remember that total system resolution is effectively (closely approximated by) the root mean square of the resolution of each component that makes up the system. In a DSLR, to keep things simple, the final resolution of the photographs you make is the RMS of the resolutions of the lens and the sensor. There is no such thing as one outresolving the other. Increasing the resolution of either lens or sensor increases the resolution of the system as a whole, and produces higher resolution photographs.

You get the most bang for the buck by increasing the lowest common denominator, but if you have a lens, like the 24-70 II, and you use it on a 60mp FF camera...you WILL realize better results (all other things being equal...i.e. assuming the best tech available is used to produce said 60mp sensor.)

 

[CarlTN]

It will be interesting to see if Canon can actually achieve parity with the current SOA sensor, regarding those attributes that people like to argue about. What would be mind blowing, is if Canon actually exceeds those attributes...regardless of the pixel dimensions. It seems to me that if the number is closer to 60MP rather than 45, the performance might be more compromised. Certainly it will be difficult to make use of all that resolution outside the center 50% of the image on most, if not all Canon lenses...even the 24-70 ii.

Remember that total system resolution is effectively (closely approximated by) the root mean square of the resolution of each component that makes up the system. In a DSLR, to keep things simple, the final resolution of the photographs you make is the RMS of the resolutions of the lens and the sensor. There is no such thing as one outresolving the other. Increasing the resolution of either lens or sensor increases the resolution of the system as a whole, and produces higher resolution photographs.

You get the most bang for the buck by increasing the lowest common denominator, but if you have a lens, like the 24-70 II, and you use it on a 60mp FF camera...you WILL realize better results (all other things being equal...i.e. assuming the best tech available is used to produce said 60mp sensor.)

That was not my point. My point was as stated. I never said the overall results would not be "better". To belabor my point, since you are intentionally missing it...I will quote myself: "...it will be difficult to make use of all that resolution outside the center 50% of the image on most, if not all Canon lenses...even the 24-70 ii."

I stand by this. Your point does not disprove my point. You might have your own idea about how you define the phrase "make use of all that resolution". I have mine. My point was never that you could not get improved resolution and image quality, from a higher megapixel sensor. Only a fool would argue that. Yet you seem to want to believe that's what I meant. I wonder why? Up to your same old tricks I see.

As for "bang for buck", that is an entirely separate issue altogether, which I hope you realize...and has nothing to do what my point.