All is Quiet, but the Good Stuff is Coming

[Don Haines]

Being as Canon can hit 14 fps on a FF camera with a mirror, 6-8 would be a terrible goal.... personally, I am surprised that Sony only hits 20..... I would have expected to see at least 30, plus a reduced resolution mode where you could hit 120....

To be fair, they do have to keep the thing from melting. And they do have a reduced resolution mode for 30, 60, and 120fps just like the 1DX2 has a reduced-resolution 30/60/120fps mode with electronic shutter, full live view without blackout, and full AF

Good to know! Thanks!

I have a three year old P/S that has a 100fps burst mode at reduced resolution.... I could not understand why a high end mirrorless could not do better....... Now I know it can.

 

[jeffa4444]

There is absolutely no reason for a 6D II. What can a 6D II DSLR do better than a new enthusiast oriented FF mirrorless?

OVF? You may like looking through actual glass. That's fine, but you're missing out on so much more by making that choice. More and more people are trying out EVFs and realizing how much they add to the shooting experience, and as Sony has shown, it can be done without any of the drawbacks we've seen in the past.

Battery? Again, see the Sony A9. It may be rated at a lower shutter count than the 6D, but every review shows people getting well over 1,000 shots on a single charge. And that's on a body that is constrained to a small grip. Imagine what could be done with a normal sized grip.

Speed? Do you not think Canon can squeeze 6-8 fps out of a FF mirrorless when Sony can hit 20?

Lenses? Give us a well integrated adapter for EF lenses. Problem solved.

Given all the benefits to losing the mirror and perceived drawbacks evaporating like a fart in the wind, why on earth would Canon ever make an enthusiast oriented FF DSLR again?

Having owned the Canon 6D since 2013 and having Olympus 4/3rds and micro 4/3rds cameras all with EV finders I would say your farting in the wind. The 6D is the most underrated camera in Canon line-up most of the "horror" stories people say about the AF points or tracking are missing the point of the camera. It was and is primarily a travel / landscape camera that happens to do a darn good job at most other forms of photography (Ive used it for aerial photography, safari, motor racing, studio portraiture all with great results).
A tool is only as good as the person using it and knowing the limitations and working within them, their is no "magic" in mirrorless it has some weight & size benefits but otherwise they basically have similar functions.

 

[amorse]

There is absolutely no reason for a 6D II. What can a 6D II DSLR do better than a new enthusiast oriented FF mirrorless?

The 6D can allow a photographer to compose an image with the camera off. This does actually make a difference to some people (like me) who have to make a camera battery last as long as possible. I often go on hiking trips where I could be camping for a week without any way to recharge. In those scenarios I'm usually taking landscape photos where I can keep the camera off for my compositions and then turning it on only to take the photo. This has gotten me through low battery warnings more than once!

The 6DII doesn't need to be a better product than what's possible with a full frame mirrorless - it just needs to be better for Canon. The 6DII has a place in Canon's lineup I think - it helps people move from crop cameras into the full frame and EF lens market (read: gets people buying more expensive glass). In my case, I started with a Canon XSi, got a few EF-S and EF lenses, and when it came time to upgrade I chose the 6D because it was relatively affordable and I already had a few lenses that would work on it. No way was I jumping from an XSi to a 5Diii - I could barely justify the 6D price! If Canon replaced the 6D with a full frame mirrorless, it would likely need a new lens line to go with it, wouldn't convince new buyers to invest in EF lenses (they'd just get the new mirrorless lens line), current crop users of Canon cameras would have no entry level full frame camera to enter the full frame market with, and Canon would have to invest tremendously in engineering at least a hand full of key lenses for the mirrorless line. That seems like a huge risk for Canon - spending a lot of money to potentially cannibalize their future EF lens line sales.

With that said, I do think there is room for a FF mirrorless - I'd certainly be interested in the potential size/weight savings (IF the battery can be improved), but that would likely mean I would need new lenses since bringing any EF lenses would negate most of my size/weight savings. I'm also hesitant on current mirrorless offerings because of weather sealing - I think Canon could really fix that.

In short, I think Canon will get into full frame mirrorless, but not to the detriment of their current offerings: replacing the 6D with a mirrorless line that doesn't take EF lenses without an adaptor would do just that. If they were willing to run the risk of damaging sales of their other lines, we may have seen a different 5D IV than we got :

 

[Woody]

A tool is only as good as the person using it and knowing the limitations and working within them, their is no "magic" in mirrorless it has some weight & size benefits but otherwise they basically have similar functions.

Having used the the Sony A7RII + FE 24-70 f/4 set-up in my company, I must also say the weight and size benefits for FF MILCs are not significant. If size and weight are of utmost importance, I'll recommend APS-C MILCs.

 

[Sharlin]

To be fair, they do have to keep the thing from melting. And they do have a reduced resolution mode for 30, 60, and 120fps just like the 1DX2 has a reduced-resolution 30/60/120fps mode with electronic shutter, full live view without blackout, and full AF

Good to know! Thanks!

I have a three year old P/S that has a 100fps burst mode at reduced resolution.... I could not understand why a high end mirrorless could not do better....... Now I know it can.

To clarify, I was of course referring to the video mode. The 1DX2 can shoot 8Mpix JPEGs at 60fps, it just stores them together in a "container" file. You can grab individual frames from the "container" in-camera or in post. It can also shoot 2Mpix photos at 120fps albeit in an even more compressed format. Similarly with Sony's offering, and your point-and-shoot as well, I suspect.

 

[dak723]

Thanks. I think I'm gonna do it (the current 6D). Seems like a full frame T1i which was my first camera and did really well with it.

8)

The T1i was not full frame.

You might want to read the person's remarks more carefully before answering with a smart-ass remark. You might just end up looking like a fool.

I read the remark over and over again. The whole second sentence makes no sense. You might have guessed at what he meant, but it clearly says, "Seems like a full frame T1i which was my first camera and did really well with it.

1. There is no possible way a 6D seems like a full frame T1i.
2. There is no possible way a 6D seems like an ASP-C T1i.
3. There are people that visit these boards that don't know the difference between the two formats or that there are even different formats, or which cameras are which format. If he didn't know, now he does.

BTW... It is much better to be a perceived "smart-ass" than to be an actual dumb-ass like yourself.

Obviously he's chosen to go with the current 6D. Bravo!

He thinks it seems like a full frame T1i... his first camera.... he did well with.

My 5D Mark III seems like a full frame XSi, the first digital I owned. :

There was no ill will or "smart-assery" in my post to the man. There was, however, in your post to me. You big limp phallus.

I apologize for treating your remark as a "smart-ass" remark if it was not so intended. Apparently you were just trying to inform although the meaning of his sentence seems clear enough to me and other readers here.

Perhaps I was confused because I read your responses to two other posters in order:

In reply to testthewest: "You win the award for the silliest remark on this thread."

In reply to Luds34: "I'm always very suspicious of such claims. I call B.S."

Since you were rude to those posters, I took your response to the next thread in the same vein. Again, I apologize for doing so.

 

[Cory]

All good. We're all friends.
In the mean time I think I'm maybe leaning towards a 35 2.0 IS/135 2.0/current 6D combo; maybe (I think).

 

[Luds34]

All good. We're all friends.
In the mean time I think I'm maybe leaning towards a 35 2.0 IS/135 2.0/current 6D combo; maybe (I think).

Not being able to track outer focal points (very well) to allow a better composition was the one annoyance for me. Other than that I absolutely loved the camera. Like I said earlier, it tracks very well with the center point. And if you plan to spend little to no time in Ai servo, well than those limitations are not an issue at all.

I own the Sigma 35mm Art and absolutely love, love, love that lens on the 6D. I think your combo of a 35mm/135mm will serve you well. In short, I don't think you'll be too disappointed picking up a 6D. And at the "discounted" price they are at, you could probably turn around and sell it again in a year for minimal loss. If you shoot Canon (and this should remain true after the 6D2 is out) there just isn't a better option to jump into full frame at that $1k price point.

 

[Cory]

Thanks. Whenever in AI Servo (running events, marching band, etc.) I think I always use the center point. Outer points are only used, off the top of my head, for portraits or other static objects.
I currently have all of my crop items in a pile to put on ebay tomorrow.

 

[Ozarker]

Thanks. I think I'm gonna do it (the current 6D). Seems like a full frame T1i which was my first camera and did really well with it.

8)

The T1i was not full frame.

You might want to read the person's remarks more carefully before answering with a smart-ass remark. You might just end up looking like a fool.

I read the remark over and over again. The whole second sentence makes no sense. You might have guessed at what he meant, but it clearly says, "Seems like a full frame T1i which was my first camera and did really well with it.

1. There is no possible way a 6D seems like a full frame T1i.
2. There is no possible way a 6D seems like an ASP-C T1i.
3. There are people that visit these boards that don't know the difference between the two formats or that there are even different formats, or which cameras are which format. If he didn't know, now he does.

BTW... It is much better to be a perceived "smart-ass" than to be an actual dumb-ass like yourself.

Obviously he's chosen to go with the current 6D. Bravo!

He thinks it seems like a full frame T1i... his first camera.... he did well with.

My 5D Mark III seems like a full frame XSi, the first digital I owned. :

There was no ill will or "smart-assery" in my post to the man. There was, however, in your post to me. You big limp phallus.

I apologize for treating your remark as a "smart-ass" remark if it was not so intended. Apparently you were just trying to inform although the meaning of his sentence seems clear enough to me and other readers here.

Perhaps I was confused because I read your responses to two other posters in order:

In reply to testthewest: "You win the award for the silliest remark on this thread."

In reply to Luds34: "I'm always very suspicious of such claims. I call B.S."

Since you were rude to those posters, I took your response to the next thread in the same vein. Again, I apologize for doing so.

Saying "Everybody that wanted a 5D IV already has one" is silly (testthewest)

Saying one sold a 6D body close to 2 years old for just $100 less than the purchase price is a suspicious claim. (Luds34) Maybe his original purchase was a used model at a fire sale price. Who knows? Still sounds like b.s. to me.

Should I take every post you make in the same rude vein as the one you made to me? That would be silly of me.

My posts didn't have a thing to do with you. There aren't any damsels in distress that need you to rescue them around here. Get lost.

 

[ricky_005]

off topic here but Curious has anyone compared shutter speed under low light conditions shooting the same scene between the 5diii vs 5div?

 

[privatebydesign]

I don't understand why this story is being disputed it is the internet and there are no real consequences for anything said and no need to supply any kind of proof or confirmation of any claim.

Further, the claim isn't even particularly contentious, I did a similar thing with a 16-35 f4 IS, I 'made' a $50 profit from a CPW deal, I owned it for six months then bought an 11-24 also via a CPW and sold the older lens for more than I bought it for.

Many people on the used market don't have a clue about CPW deals etc, they just look up B&H and won't pay that price. The 17-40 is a perfect example of that, often used prices are higher than refurb or CPW prices, bodies do the same thing sometimes. The 5D was the best example of that, but have you seen the vast differences in 1DC used prices, you can get then on deals for $3,999 yet some used prices are over that!

P.S. I recently ordered two 1DXMkII's, looking on eBay there are several sold used sales higher than I am paying for new.

 

[Cory]

One more obnoxiously brutal question - I've really mastered my 70D. Will I be able to jump right into the 6D or are there any differences with controls to note or any nuances unique to the 6D? I'm sure that touch-screen to non touch-screen will be seamless and obvious, but anything in particular to report?
I normally get the MichaelTheMentor.com training DVD for any new camera and wondering if that would be necessary. They're phenomenal, by the way, and have been essential so far.
Thanks.

 

[ahsanford]

One more obnoxiously brutal question - I've really mastered my 70D. Will I be able to jump right into the 6D or are there any differences with controls to note or any nuances unique to the 6D? I'm sure that touch-screen to non touch-screen will be seamless and obvious, but anything in particular to report?
I normally get the MichaelTheMentor.com training DVD for any new camera and wondering if that would be necessary. They're phenomenal, by the way, and have been essential so far.
Thanks.

Not obnoxious at all. Upgrading your gear because you mastered your current gear is something to be proud off. It's amazing how many people with GAS / boredom / etc. buy new gear for new's sake when they haven't pushed the limits of what they currently shoot with.

I don't own either the 70D or 6D, but just off the top of my head:

1) No pop-up flash = you might need to buy a Speedlite if you don't own one. (Happened to me when I jumped from crop to my 5D3.) If you just need an optical trigger for off-camera work or have very modest unprofessional on-camera flash needs, believe it or not, the EOS M little guy actually is a lifesaver in a pinch. It's spectacularly underpowered, won't shoot over large zooms, etc. but it fits in your pocket and is a great little bridge to sort-of put a pop-up back on your rig.

2) If you use MF lenses a lot, you might read up on interchangeable focusing screen changeout.

3) This is more of a lens comment than a 6D migration comment, but if your migration to FF will see you picking up staple pro glass like the f/2.8L zooms or L primes (especially a 70-200 f/2.8L), you may need some ergonomic support for long shooting days. A BlackRapid (or similar) setup to offload your neck would be a very wise move.

I'm sure others here can get more into the weeds with you on the menus and controls if that's what you need.

- A

 

[Luds34]

I don't understand why this story is being disputed it is the internet and there are no real consequences for anything said and no need to supply any kind of proof or confirmation of any claim.

Further, the claim isn't even particularly contentious, I did a similar thing with a 16-35 f4 IS, I 'made' a $50 profit from a CPW deal, I owned it for six months then bought an 11-24 also via a CPW and sold the older lens for more than I bought it for.

Many people on the used market don't have a clue about CPW deals etc, they just look up B&H and won't pay that price. The 17-40 is a perfect example of that, often used prices are higher than refurb or CPW prices, bodies do the same thing sometimes. The 5D was the best example of that, but have you seen the vast differences in 1DC used prices, you can get then on deals for $3,999 yet some used prices are over that!

P.S. I recently ordered two 1DXMkII's, looking on eBay there are several sold used sales higher than I am paying for new.

Exactly, I agree. And if you throw in a little patience on both the buying and selling end, you'll come across some good deals when acquiring, and eventually find a buyer willing to pay on the selling end. And your point is valid that some potential buyers only look at the retail price (Amazon, BH Photo).

The deal that they had (for all of a day or so) to get the 6D for $1099 was pretty good opportunity that I fell into. Anyone who goes back and reads the post I referenced earlier will see a number of forum members jumping in on the 6D, 5DIII, etc. I've had a number of other decent "long term rentals". Sigma 50 EX brand new for $350, later sold for $325. The 17-40L, purchased for $425, sold for $420 two years later. EF-S 60mm? Bought $320, sold for $280. Again, just requires some patience.

 

[Luds34]

One more obnoxiously brutal question - I've really mastered my 70D. Will I be able to jump right into the 6D or are there any differences with controls to note or any nuances unique to the 6D? I'm sure that touch-screen to non touch-screen will be seamless and obvious, but anything in particular to report?
I normally get the MichaelTheMentor.com training DVD for any new camera and wondering if that would be necessary. They're phenomenal, by the way, and have been essential so far.
Thanks.

They are nearly identical when it comes to ergonomics. Size, weight, feel, even button placement. They both follow the same "4 button layout" on the top (vs the 3 dual purpose 5D/7D button layout). Honestly the biggest difference was how you zoom in to review a photo. With the 70D I'd hit play and then just use the touch screen. With the 6D you have to hit the zoom icon (one of the few minor differences) and the top dial zooms in/out.

 

[jolyonralph]

Everyone talks about the 'cannibalising effect' without really thinking about the business implications of this.


Let's say for argument sake that Canon makes a $1000 profit on each 5DIV sold (unlikely, but let's just use simple numbers)

And let's say that a 6D II at $2500 would make them $1000 profit, and a 6D II at $2000 would make them $500 profit.


So. If they were to sell 6D IIs at 2500 it makes no difference how many 5Ds they don't sell because they're making the same money.

And if they reduce the 6D II to 2000, then as long as less than 50% of 6DII buyers would have bought the 5DIV instead (and most wouldn't be able to afford it), they are again still at least as well off.

Add to this that people buying a cheaper body often have more money then to spend on lenses.

Long story short...

Those who need the 5DIV will continue to buy the 5DIV. Those who are happy to spend less on the 6DII probably wouldn't have bought the 5DIV to begin with.

 

[MayaTlab]

Everyone talks about the 'cannibalising effect' without really thinking about the business implications of this.

I'm pretty certain that absolutely no one, including Canon, can rationally pretend to be able to demonstrate with a sound methodology the effect of "cannibalisation" on Canon's final balance sheet. There are simply way too many variables at play.

And, anyway, it's completely obvious that Canon's crippling isn't a question of business rational, it's just an irrational business culture that's never been questioned within the company.

For example, that Canon's so called "expert" mirrorless offering, i.e. the M5, has a completely subpar fisher-price like auto ISO implementation that's even worse than Canon's latest powershots, protects strictly nothing, as there is nothing higher up to protect, and I doubt Canon has a strong preference for selling an 80D over an M5.

 

[Mikehit]

And, anyway, it's completely obvious that Canon's crippling isn't a question of business rational, it's just an irrational business culture that's never been questioned within the company.

You know Canon that well??

They don't provide full 1Dx2 feature set in a 5DIV? Or won't provide full 5DIV feature set in the 6D2. What an appalling business model - fancy crippling cameras like that.

 

[MayaTlab]

And, anyway, it's completely obvious that Canon's crippling isn't a question of business rational, it's just an irrational business culture that's never been questioned within the company.

They don't provide full 1Dx2 feature set in a 5DIV? Or won't provide full 5DIV feature set in the 6D2. What an appalling business model - fancy crippling cameras like that.

Every time you talk about Canon crippling cameras you get this sort of "all or nothing" stupid answer. Of course Canon won't, and can't put every feature into every camera at every price point.

But they sure go out of their ways to completely artificially segment or cripple their cameras in ways that make absolutely no rational sense whatsoever, such as the M5 example that I gave above.