Any news on the 7dMk2 now that CES is done
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Here's an interview with a Canon official:
http://dc.watch.impress.co.jp/docs/news/interview/20130124_584693.html
In the last part, the question on the 7D successor was raised. The official noted that the next generation camera is "not that far in the future" and is not only a spec-enhanced version, but promised to include some kind of new revolutionary technology... whatever that means.
http://dc.watch.impress.co.jp/docs/news/interview/20130124_584693.html
In the last part, the question on the 7D successor was raised. The official noted that the next generation camera is "not that far in the future" and is not only a spec-enhanced version, but promised to include some kind of new revolutionary technology... whatever that means.
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ronderick said:
Thanks for the link!
There has been lots of speculation that we might see rear illuminated sensors in APS-C and even FF bodies in the next round of new products.
This will reduce noise and make for higher ISO bodies as well as for higher pixel counts while maintaining photosite size.
The interview also hinted at a major move into mirrorless versions of DSLR's, so the 7D MK II could even become mirrorless.
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Mt Spokane Photography said:
That would royally piss me off. I don't want a mirrorless 7D II...I want a standard DSLR 7D II. I LOVE my optical viewfinder and the 7D...I just want better IQ, not some radical format change. I hope to God that Canon doesn't ****** up the 7D by making its successor mirrorless...what a disaster!!!
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When it comes to Canon and their blunders, I am happy to be vehement. They need to wise up and compete, but not radically change their existing lines such that they piss off all their existing customers. If they want to make a mirrorless 7D alternative calls something else, fine. But I've been looking forward to a DSLR style 7D II that has a nice, bright, usable OVF for too long. A move to mirrorless with an EVF would end my use of the 7D line forever. A move to mirrorless with EVF's on all Canon cameras would end my use of Canon...forever.
DEATH TO THE EVF!!!
DEATH TO THE EVF!!!
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It is interesting to reflect on the evolution of things....
Way back, once upon a time, in the good old days, add cliche here, you just looked through the back of the camera to see the view.... adjusted your aim and focus, put on the camera back, inserted the glass plate, and took the picture.
Then an amazing leap forward in technology happened... the film cannister... no more loading a single glass plate, no more loading your film carrier in a darkroom.... you could take dozens of shots without changing film. The downside of this is that you needed some way of seeing what you were looking at and focusing on because removing the camera back and looking through was no longer an option.... so the viewfinder was invented.
The viewfinder was a piece of glass off to the side of the lens that you looked through to aim the camera.... problem was, you were tasking a guess as to what you were seeing and you had to guess distances to focus... and how did you deal with different lenses..... the viewfinder was scribed with boxes to correspond to different lenses. Something better was needed..
After a few intermediate steps, the photography world settled on moveable mirrors so that you could aim and focus while seeing exactly what the film would see through the lens... and the SLR camera was born.
When we started to go digital we had to relearn these lessons. The earliest digital cameras just had a glass windor to see what you were pointed at and minimal focusing ability, and then we relearned how to use a mirror to see through the lens and the DSLR was born. Eventually super low-res displays appeared on the backs of cameras.... and this is a big thing.... you no longer need a mirror and all the mechanicals to control it in order to see what the sensor sees. From this point the days of the mirror are limited.
Remember what the reason for the mirror was.... to see what the sensor sees. There are lots of mechanical parts and control systems to manage this mechanical function.... if it can be done better electronicaly then it should be done that way. You will save money and increase reliability.
Resolution of displays on the backs of cameras can now exceed the resolving power of the human eye. Optical viewfinders are now no longer critical to the opertion of a camera.... they are downgraded into being a nice thing to have. Electronic viewfinders, crude when they first came out, are now almost as good as optical and the time will come when they are better. Remember not so long ago when people said digital will never be as good as film? Times change.
Eventually we will have mirrorless cameras that exceed the limitations set by mechanical mirrors.... and that day is coming soon. We already have 4/3 cameras which exceed the 7D in IQ and getting close for focus. A mirrorless 7D2 would not supprise me..... and if it works better than a 7D, who cares if it has a mirror or not..... unless you really like mirror shake in your pictures...
Way back, once upon a time, in the good old days, add cliche here, you just looked through the back of the camera to see the view.... adjusted your aim and focus, put on the camera back, inserted the glass plate, and took the picture.
Then an amazing leap forward in technology happened... the film cannister... no more loading a single glass plate, no more loading your film carrier in a darkroom.... you could take dozens of shots without changing film. The downside of this is that you needed some way of seeing what you were looking at and focusing on because removing the camera back and looking through was no longer an option.... so the viewfinder was invented.
The viewfinder was a piece of glass off to the side of the lens that you looked through to aim the camera.... problem was, you were tasking a guess as to what you were seeing and you had to guess distances to focus... and how did you deal with different lenses..... the viewfinder was scribed with boxes to correspond to different lenses. Something better was needed..
After a few intermediate steps, the photography world settled on moveable mirrors so that you could aim and focus while seeing exactly what the film would see through the lens... and the SLR camera was born.
When we started to go digital we had to relearn these lessons. The earliest digital cameras just had a glass windor to see what you were pointed at and minimal focusing ability, and then we relearned how to use a mirror to see through the lens and the DSLR was born. Eventually super low-res displays appeared on the backs of cameras.... and this is a big thing.... you no longer need a mirror and all the mechanicals to control it in order to see what the sensor sees. From this point the days of the mirror are limited.
Remember what the reason for the mirror was.... to see what the sensor sees. There are lots of mechanical parts and control systems to manage this mechanical function.... if it can be done better electronicaly then it should be done that way. You will save money and increase reliability.
Resolution of displays on the backs of cameras can now exceed the resolving power of the human eye. Optical viewfinders are now no longer critical to the opertion of a camera.... they are downgraded into being a nice thing to have. Electronic viewfinders, crude when they first came out, are now almost as good as optical and the time will come when they are better. Remember not so long ago when people said digital will never be as good as film? Times change.
Eventually we will have mirrorless cameras that exceed the limitations set by mechanical mirrors.... and that day is coming soon. We already have 4/3 cameras which exceed the 7D in IQ and getting close for focus. A mirrorless 7D2 would not supprise me..... and if it works better than a 7D, who cares if it has a mirror or not..... unless you really like mirror shake in your pictures...
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jrista said:
Oh I am sure Canon has heard all this during that FD to EF switch...and they did it anyways.
Circa ~1987 Jrista's forerunners said... "If they make my current FD lenses obsolete with new EF mount bodies...I'll ..I'll... never forgive them... I will...I will... arhmmm... grunt... move to Nikon!!! *Huff* *Puff*... I mean it this time..."
Canon knows you will get over it... whimper a bit, lick your wounds, and buy the mirrorless line and what's more...praise the same thing you spited as the best thing ever in a year from the switch.
There is no shame in sucking it up and moving on.
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Ray2021 said:jrista said:
Oh I am sure Canon has heard all this during that FD to EF switch...and they did it anyways.
Circa ~1987 Jrista's forerunners said... "If they make my current FD lenses obsolete with new EF mount bodies...I'll ..I'll... never forgive them... I will...I will... arhmmm... grunt... move to Nikon!!! *Huff* *Puff*... I mean it this time..."
Canon knows you will get over it... whimper a bit, lick your wounds, and buy the mirrorless line and what's more...praise the same thing you spited as the best thing ever in a year from the switch.
There is no shame in sucking it up and moving on.
Did someone say FD........ still sucking it up....... stil trying to move on........ damn you Canon damn you ;D ;D
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Wow seriously dude? Chill out. It's astounding that people think that they individually know more than an entire multi-billion dollar corporation. And how do you know they don't have some amazing new technology that will give you the most amazing viewfinder you've ever seen? Wait until it comes out and then try it out, then come back and complain if you don't like it. But to write it off purely based on speculation is idiotic.jrista said:
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Don Haines said:
Excellent points although I still think EVF technology is not there yet in one or two years? possibly but I dont think that likely. Maybe 5 years
The day will probably come where the EVF has its own dedicated processor to make it lag free and insantaneous
of course there are all the other benefits that can be put into an EVF like on screen information and overlays
who knows they could even have RED AF points!
(one day)
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Hi All.
Interesting thread, some good posts.
I have had the 7D since it came out, and love the camera. It was a real step up from my 350D in every way. The specs (eg FPS, AF pts) build quality, functionality (eg live view, video), body size and (believe it or not!) APS-C sensor are all positive attributes to me.
Not that the 7D is perfect, eg it has more noise than I would like, but with careful exposure and post-processing, good results can be achieved even at ISO3200 to ISO4000. I have taken so many photos with it, that the camera feels totally natural to me. When I go back to my 350D - or when I go 'even further back' to my Fuji digital P&S, I think "wow, how did I ever use those tiny, limited view-finders?" [and use the tiny 1.5" rear display??] But I did, and still have thousands of great photos, real keepers with each!
I have used digital cameras with poor EVFs, but also those with much better ones. I remember when the DSLR world was caught be surprise with Live-View and Video. Many people were saying "It will never happen" or "The quality will be rubbish". While there are still improvements to be made, I think most of us will agree - Live-View and DSLR Video are maturing along quite well, quality is very good and each present many positive benefits to users.
So, with regard to an EVF... I'd like to see a good one incorporated into a mirrorless Canon DSLR in the near future. Maybe that will be the 7DmkII (before the same progresses up to a FF). I'm sure the scientistics, electronic engineers, etc at Canon (and other DSLR companies) have been researching and developing these for ages. Or it might be that we're not quite ready, and the 7DmkII will come out, still having an OVF.
Either way, technology is advancing in this segment in tangible steps, and should I upgrade my current 7D in the future (there is no reason to at this point in time) - I'm sure models succeeding the 7D eg 7DmkII, 7DmkIII, etc - in the right pair of hands - will be capable of taking stunning photos.
I, for one, am very much looking forward to the future. 8)
Regards
Paul
Interesting thread, some good posts.
I have had the 7D since it came out, and love the camera. It was a real step up from my 350D in every way. The specs (eg FPS, AF pts) build quality, functionality (eg live view, video), body size and (believe it or not!) APS-C sensor are all positive attributes to me.
Not that the 7D is perfect, eg it has more noise than I would like, but with careful exposure and post-processing, good results can be achieved even at ISO3200 to ISO4000. I have taken so many photos with it, that the camera feels totally natural to me. When I go back to my 350D - or when I go 'even further back' to my Fuji digital P&S, I think "wow, how did I ever use those tiny, limited view-finders?" [and use the tiny 1.5" rear display??] But I did, and still have thousands of great photos, real keepers with each!
I have used digital cameras with poor EVFs, but also those with much better ones. I remember when the DSLR world was caught be surprise with Live-View and Video. Many people were saying "It will never happen" or "The quality will be rubbish". While there are still improvements to be made, I think most of us will agree - Live-View and DSLR Video are maturing along quite well, quality is very good and each present many positive benefits to users.
So, with regard to an EVF... I'd like to see a good one incorporated into a mirrorless Canon DSLR in the near future. Maybe that will be the 7DmkII (before the same progresses up to a FF). I'm sure the scientistics, electronic engineers, etc at Canon (and other DSLR companies) have been researching and developing these for ages. Or it might be that we're not quite ready, and the 7DmkII will come out, still having an OVF.
Either way, technology is advancing in this segment in tangible steps, and should I upgrade my current 7D in the future (there is no reason to at this point in time) - I'm sure models succeeding the 7D eg 7DmkII, 7DmkIII, etc - in the right pair of hands - will be capable of taking stunning photos.
I, for one, am very much looking forward to the future. 8)
Regards
Paul
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wickidwombat said:Don Haines said:
Excellent points although I still think EVF technology is not there yet in one or two years? possibly but I dont think that likely. Maybe 5 years
The day will probably come where the EVF has its own dedicated processor to make it lag free and insantaneous
of course there are all the other benefits that can be put into an EVF like on screen information and overlays
who knows they could even have RED AF points!
Well maybe, just maybe, Canon has something up their sleeve which makes the EVF what you want, and now instead of in a couple of years. Not saying it is, but just maybe. Probably not though, I agree. I'm hoping it'll be something sensor related, like a completely new process and vastly improved tech which will migrate up and down the camera lines over the next few years.
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Axilrod said:
I've seen some pretty good EVFs on higher end digital video cameras. Those puppies can cost a couple grand, just for the EVF. There are apparently even better ones, such as the $4k-5k ones that come on the top-end Red cams. They are still not as good as an optical viewfinder...limited dynamic range, visible pixels (especially when your eye is an inch or so from the screen), etc. It will be very difficult for any EVF to ever be as good as an optical viewfinder, for a multitude of reasons. I am very strongly against EVFs as a general replacement for standard pentaprism viewfinders, it is WAY too early in the game for that. Maybe at some point when the technology has been perfected, offers considerably dynamic range, and reaches around 500DPI such that the visual acuity of someone with 20/10 vision can't see any pixels...then they might be ready to replace OVFs en-masse.
It really would tick me off to no end if Canon started replacing their standard DSLR lines (1D, 5D, 7D, etc.) with mirrorless versions that use EVF's. I like my DSLRs as they are, they have reached a pinnacle of ergonomic, viewfinder, and AF/AF drive capabilities. The only real area for solid improvement to the Canon DSLR, IMO, is the image sensor. I'd take a 7D with only the 61pt AF and a better image sensor as the 7D Mark II, and I'd be extremely happy.
The moment Canon drops an EVF into an existing DSLR line, I'm gone. Canon demonstrated a great lack of will to produce competitive products with their first mirrorless entrant. The first EOS-M is a joke. The hybrid AF system with PDAF pixels is a slowpoke of a joke. Canon's CDAF is just as much a joke. The lenses are ok, nothing great as of yet. The competition is running circles around Canon when it comes to the mirrorless arena. Trade my 7D in for something with Canon mirrorless technology? HELL NO. I'll switch. Can't say who I'll switch to, but if Canon stuffs their wildly inferior mirrorless technology into an established DSLR line, they lose me.
They are free to create something entirely new as far as I'm concerned. A professional EOS-M line with a larger body, early-generation EVF, their crappy & slow hybrid AF, and all that would be GREAT in a new camera line from Canon. Those who are curious and want to explore early generation mirrorless technology can have at it. I just don't want them to mess with the things that do the job, do it well, and serve my needs superbly (or can, with some minor improvements to a couple components that don't require a radical departure from what currently works). In other words...don't fix what ain't broke with something that is broke.
Is that really too much to ask for?
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While the lag can be reduced, it can never have less lag than an OVF. It can also never have more resolution. These factors will always be worse than an OVF, but soon the appreciable difference will disappear. Also, overlays are already getting there on OVFs.wickidwombat said:Don Haines said:
Excellent points although I still think EVF technology is not there yet in one or two years? possibly but I dont think that likely. Maybe 5 years
The day will probably come where the EVF has its own dedicated processor to make it lag free and insantaneous
of course there are all the other benefits that can be put into an EVF like on screen information and overlays
who knows they could even have RED AF points!
Having said that, there are times when an OVF isn't ideal - such as when you want to see how the sensor sees a high contrast scenes, appreciating the DoF with large aperture lenses, seeing the effect of exposure compensation, or hand held manual focusing with peaking, shooting video etc. So a hybrid setup like Fuji has would give the best of both worlds.
As the technology to make it truly great is some time off, I can't imagine it making it on any high end bodies just yet. And as for EVF only? That's where the EF-M mount comes in. I can't see Canon doing Sony and Pentax's trick of making a body that takes SLR deep flange lenses with no OVF. If they make a 7D mk II, it will have an EVF.
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Don Haines said:
The original reason for the mirror was to see what the sensor sees. Today, it is also a crucial component of the highly advanced, high speed, highly effective AF systems. Without the mirror, you don't have a dedicated PDAF sensor. The secondary mirror behind the primary mirror is responsible for redirecting light to the AF unit. Drop that, and your stuck with FP-PDAF, and even for the BEST of that, it is still very inferior to what a dedicated AF unit can offer these days.
Sure, things progress, but EVF's and FP-PDAF have not progressed far enough to be adequate replacements for what current, existing DSLR lines have to offer. Stuff those things into a brand new line of camera, and let those who are interested in exploring use that...but replacing the tried and true that does the job well is inane. The 7D line should be kept as a standard DSLR with mirror box and all. That's my point. I'm not against progress...just against messing with established products that work.
Don Haines said:
That is the 3.2" LCD screen, which is normally viewed at a distance many times greater than a viewfinder. LCD screens on the backs of cameras have also surpassed the visual acuity of someone with 20/20 vision...but someone like myself with 20/10 vision can still see the pixels of the LCD screen on the back of most cameras. Canon's newest are slightly better, but pixels are still visible. Visual acuity improves as you get closer, so the DPI of the large backside LCD screens is no where near high enough for a pixelation-free EVF. You would need to be pushing 500dpi before an EVF was good enough for a person with 20/10 vision to enjoy it without seeing pixels.
Don Haines said:
Possibly. There are some things you can do with optics that you will never be able to do with electronic devices. Dynamic range, for one, is effectively unlimited with optics (i.e. a pentaprism). The rate of refresh is effectively unlimited with optics. Both of those things would be limited with an electronic viewfinder. At some point in the future, and I'm not talking a year or two down the road but five to ten years down the road...EVF's will probably become good enough for most people, and their limitations will be mitigated enough that they won't matter much. But that day is way off, especially given the lack of quality or capability with the current EOS-M, which has piss-poor performance compared to every other competitor's offering. Canon shouldn't be stuffing their inferior mirrorless technology into their established DSLR lines yet. Stuff it all into something new and separate, let the experimenters spend their money and experiment, but leave the established DSLR's alone, and only improve them where they really need to be improved.
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I know the feeling... Here's one taken in 1996 with an Apple Quicktake... 320 x 240 pixels at 8 bit color depth...no focusing, no iso settings, no screen on back.... just point and hope for the best. By 2001 we were up to lcd displays on the back, 1.3Megapixels, and you could set ISO, shutter speed, white balance...very crude by todays standards but even with those limitations got the second picture... and this the image with no editing. It will be interesting to see what the future holdspj1974 said:
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Ray2021 said:jrista said:
Oh I am sure Canon has heard all this during that FD to EF switch...and they did it anyways.
Circa ~1987 Jrista's forerunners said... "If they make my current FD lenses obsolete with new EF mount bodies...I'll ..I'll... never forgive them... I will...I will... arhmmm... grunt... move to Nikon!!! *Huff* *Puff*... I mean it this time..."
Canon knows you will get over it... whimper a bit, lick your wounds, and buy the mirrorless line and what's more...praise the same thing you spited as the best thing ever in a year from the switch.
There is no shame in sucking it up and moving on.
It took a long time for people to get over it, and the only reason they did is there were other offerings paired with the EF mount that made the switch worthwhile: AF. EVFs are a radically premature technology for use in professional-grade DSLRs. It some point they will probably become worth the pain of switching...but that time is WAY OFF. Its too early for Canon DSLR's to become mirrorless with EVFs.
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