Beware bad customer service Canon Direct
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Looks like you and I are reading different subject titles ... the subject title I read for this thread says "Beware bad customer service Canon Direct" ... not sure what you consider "not blaming Canon", but that title, to me, clearly says that the OP is blaming Canon, especially when it is the very first post by the OP and disappears for 4 days.expatinasia said:I do not think the OP is blaming Canon,Rienzphotoz said:People should take the time to learn about the dos and don'ts of how to use their credit card before blaming Canon. :
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Its a business matter for me. When someone pays my business with a stolen credit card, my business loses! The customer gets his money back, and the crook gets my merchandise plus I get fined by the CC company. Its the same for every company.Grumbaki said:
As far as PayPal, I have no issue with them with 10's of thousands of transactions, they make good on fraud as long as I am smart enough to read the rules and follow them. Its the same for things I buy, they make good and refund my money if something goes wrong.
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Honestly, reading through all the drama, and possibly 30%+ of my yearly transactions being online:
1) Cancellation without notification is just amateur hour
2) Cancellation based on IP not matching country when CC address/ship address really needs to be written in ToS
3) Yeah, all that's good to know, but the OP went about it in kind of a snit . . . sooo it takes away from the sympathy angle
The 1 year thing may make me consider Canon actually . . . up until this moment, the 90-day warranty wasn't worth it in my opinion. Lens Rentals customer service and products are my choice for used lenses. Each one I've bought has been spot-on when I tested AF on the lenses, and it's nice to know each lens is hand-tested by someone who purposely writes up and rates the lenses.
Now, you want useless CSRs from a place that is reputable enough I'll still buy from them? NewEgg, hands down.
1) Cancellation without notification is just amateur hour
2) Cancellation based on IP not matching country when CC address/ship address really needs to be written in ToS
3) Yeah, all that's good to know, but the OP went about it in kind of a snit . . . sooo it takes away from the sympathy angle
The 1 year thing may make me consider Canon actually . . . up until this moment, the 90-day warranty wasn't worth it in my opinion. Lens Rentals customer service and products are my choice for used lenses. Each one I've bought has been spot-on when I tested AF on the lenses, and it's nice to know each lens is hand-tested by someone who purposely writes up and rates the lenses.
Now, you want useless CSRs from a place that is reputable enough I'll still buy from them? NewEgg, hands down.
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No offense, but if i'm selling something on ebay or craigslist or whatever and someone is asking me to mail to panama (or nigeria or another country for that matter), red flags start whirling... especially when the funding and IP address (in canon's case) doesn't match up... I can see their concern. The fact they didn't contact you is a shame, but surely you can see where canon got concerned..
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Rienzphotoz said:Looks like you and I are reading different subject titles ... the subject title I read for this thread says "Beware bad customer service Canon Direct" ... not sure what you consider "not blaming Canon", but that title, to me, clearly says that the OP is blaming Canon, especially when it is the very first post by the OP and disappears for 4 days.expatinasia said:I do not think the OP is blaming Canon,Rienzphotoz said:People should take the time to learn about the dos and don'ts of how to use their credit card before blaming Canon. :
It is bad customer service. Sorry, but there is no way to sugar coat that.
From the first message of the OP:
Now forget the logistics, but if you had purchased something from Canon, B&H or Amazon, or one of the other big companies, and it was cancelled, but the company did not even bother to send you an email, wouldn't you be a little annoyed?!
That is bad customer service, and that is what the subject line is about.
Even if it was a boiler plate email telling the guy/gal to (insert word of your own choice) off, that would be better than simply ignoring it all together, especially if it is true that it is on a US cc, using a US address which is the same as the US billing address.
Good customer service would have been to contact the person by email, hold the item for 24 or 48 hours and tell them that there are issues with the order and could he/she please contact them asap or the order will be cancelled.
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Sorry, but I rarely believe when the very first post of a new member is warning forum members about Canon with a subject title "Beware" and then does a disappearing act. Seen a few posts like these in CR where "new" members mysteriously show up only to bad mouth Canon or their service in his/her very first post ... makes me wonder about their intentions. Assuming OP's claims are true, I'd be happy that Canon did not honor my card being used from a different country (especially red alert countries in the banking world) ... credit card fraud is very real, banks & vendors lose billions of dollars every year due to CC fraud and the affected customers get a hit on their credit rating and it takes a lot of effort for the customer to rectify his credit rating. If the OP thinks it is poor customer service from Canon for not informing him, it is even poorer approach by the OP for not providing prior intimation to his bank of his travel to Panama ... had he done that, he would have not faced this situation. It is amusing how people don't want to take responsibility for their own actions (or the lack thereof) and always like to blame someone else.expatinasia said:Rienzphotoz said:Looks like you and I are reading different subject titles ... the subject title I read for this thread says "Beware bad customer service Canon Direct" ... not sure what you consider "not blaming Canon", but that title, to me, clearly says that the OP is blaming Canon, especially when it is the very first post by the OP and disappears for 4 days.expatinasia said:I do not think the OP is blaming Canon,Rienzphotoz said:People should take the time to learn about the dos and don'ts of how to use their credit card before blaming Canon. :
It is bad customer service. Sorry, but there is no way to sugar coat that.
From the first message of the OP:
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Holy Bleep, your local banking regulations blow hard! Where I used to work in that field the cost of fraud is between bank and CC company. Business due diligence isn't questionned as long as they have standard banking SDKs on their website...Then I get your point but still...Mt Spokane Photography said:
I read from sellers about a way to cancel the payment and paypals pretty much screws the seller. I only use it as consumer but that was conveyed to be by reliable sources.Mt Spokane Photography said:
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Um...the last time I wrote clearinghouse code, a "hard reject" is usually bad card, report stolen, wrong number (fat fingered), wrong exp, wrong CVC2/CVV. A "soft reject" is mismatched zip code, mismatched phone, good ZIP, but wrong address, etc. It is up to the developer and the company policy to determine what types of soft rejects are acceptable and which ones aren't. However, if they choose to allow any types of soft rejects through, the clearing house holds them responsible for bad transactions, so many don't allow any exceptions to rejects of any kind.
I think the OP's claim is BS - every piece of code I've ever done doesn't let the transaction go through if "hard rejected". We tell the user right there that "something is wrong with your payment info, please check and try again". It's then flagged in the system that the order never completed and that the RETURN CODE FROM THE PROCESSOR is "hard rejected" (usually without too much further info from the processor, btw). Usually it's a two-digit code that is the result (no details or miniscule details)
For a soft reject, we let it go through, but flag it for human verification the next business day before final processing and shipping. Once a person has looked at the transaction, they will contact the customer (if necessary to verify info), approve the trans, or decline it on the spot if it's obviously suspicious. If declined, our system automatically sends an email to the address listed on the sale attempt with a notice of decline and to contact our CS team for further assistance.
Now, most times, that email makes it through. However, with the newer automated spam filters that look at the content of a message, those messages get stripped out because they look suspicous (contains certain words like 'declined' or 'your transaction #') or if the admins have the sensitivty turned up too high (look at 'Spam Scoring'). And, with those systems, the customer doesn't have a chance - they don't even know that the message got dropped. It happened at their email provider BEFORE it made it into the system. Next thing your know, the customer is calling to complain that they didn't get their order, etc,... blah, blah, blah. Of course they didn't get their email about the decline. They don't even know how to use their email let alone think that their (free, public, heavily spammed) email filters messages for them without their knowledge! But, you can't explain that to them and it *MUST* be the fault of the company at that point.
For the company, some of those places (Canon included) can process hundreds or thousands of transactions per day via their accounting dept - remember that Canon also has a parts dept, service dept, wholesale, dealer network, etc. There is no way to call everybody that gets flagged as odd or suspicous. It's much more effective to send out that email first. Usually, the customer looks at their info and realizes that their card is registered to their office instead of home, so they re-order with the other address and all is good. For the other ones that DO call in, the reps now have the time (instead of making calls to everybody) to work in detail with that customer to get things resolved.
It's the state of internet business, nigerian scammers, and high CC theft nowadays. From the sounds of it, the OP got hard rejected because of other reasons - which is the clearinghouse/processor/banks fault. Canon's system kicked it out and flagged it. The OP ignored the message that it didn't go through, then called to complain they didn't get their order. Or, it wasn't hard rejected - but soft rejected and they didn't check/respond/get their email of such.
That's why it's important to get the account and card info for your CC's accurate and be sure that if you have more than card (or different cards at different addresses), you don't mix up the data. And, always white list locations you'll be traveling to - I've had a card declined because it was used "outside the normal area" - it was 63 miles from my home area and I was on vacation. And, they weren't planning on calling me until the next "business day". That was on a Sat evening at 9pm, luckily their CS was open 24/7 or I would have been unable to use that card until Mon 7am! (always travel with at least a $100 bill physically with you nowadays!)
Now, Paypal is another story, they'll screw the merchant without thought or consideration - they are 90% for the customer. We've had unscrupulous customers call PP about a "problems with their order" and get refunded. We've also had PP refund a customer (of course reversing charges so we lost money) because the customer said they never got the package - even though it was shipped UPS to them with tracking showing delivery. PP's response? It wasn't shipped adult signature required - so since it wasn't signed for, they can't show it made it there even though UPS showed it dropped off. Two or more of these and they lock your account for review. After review, they like to stick you with a reserve (holding your money for 180 days and then 10% or so). You can argue with them, but no matter how much proof you have, you (as a merchant) lose. They did good with the company for 3 years before this started, all because a customer ordered a product (~$300) that wasn't what they wanted, but waited over 45 days to try returning it and got refused by the company (duh!). They called PP and that's when the fiasco started.
I think the OP's claim is BS - every piece of code I've ever done doesn't let the transaction go through if "hard rejected". We tell the user right there that "something is wrong with your payment info, please check and try again". It's then flagged in the system that the order never completed and that the RETURN CODE FROM THE PROCESSOR is "hard rejected" (usually without too much further info from the processor, btw). Usually it's a two-digit code that is the result (no details or miniscule details)
For a soft reject, we let it go through, but flag it for human verification the next business day before final processing and shipping. Once a person has looked at the transaction, they will contact the customer (if necessary to verify info), approve the trans, or decline it on the spot if it's obviously suspicious. If declined, our system automatically sends an email to the address listed on the sale attempt with a notice of decline and to contact our CS team for further assistance.
Now, most times, that email makes it through. However, with the newer automated spam filters that look at the content of a message, those messages get stripped out because they look suspicous (contains certain words like 'declined' or 'your transaction #') or if the admins have the sensitivty turned up too high (look at 'Spam Scoring'). And, with those systems, the customer doesn't have a chance - they don't even know that the message got dropped. It happened at their email provider BEFORE it made it into the system. Next thing your know, the customer is calling to complain that they didn't get their order, etc,... blah, blah, blah. Of course they didn't get their email about the decline. They don't even know how to use their email let alone think that their (free, public, heavily spammed) email filters messages for them without their knowledge! But, you can't explain that to them and it *MUST* be the fault of the company at that point.
For the company, some of those places (Canon included) can process hundreds or thousands of transactions per day via their accounting dept - remember that Canon also has a parts dept, service dept, wholesale, dealer network, etc. There is no way to call everybody that gets flagged as odd or suspicous. It's much more effective to send out that email first. Usually, the customer looks at their info and realizes that their card is registered to their office instead of home, so they re-order with the other address and all is good. For the other ones that DO call in, the reps now have the time (instead of making calls to everybody) to work in detail with that customer to get things resolved.
It's the state of internet business, nigerian scammers, and high CC theft nowadays. From the sounds of it, the OP got hard rejected because of other reasons - which is the clearinghouse/processor/banks fault. Canon's system kicked it out and flagged it. The OP ignored the message that it didn't go through, then called to complain they didn't get their order. Or, it wasn't hard rejected - but soft rejected and they didn't check/respond/get their email of such.
That's why it's important to get the account and card info for your CC's accurate and be sure that if you have more than card (or different cards at different addresses), you don't mix up the data. And, always white list locations you'll be traveling to - I've had a card declined because it was used "outside the normal area" - it was 63 miles from my home area and I was on vacation. And, they weren't planning on calling me until the next "business day". That was on a Sat evening at 9pm, luckily their CS was open 24/7 or I would have been unable to use that card until Mon 7am! (always travel with at least a $100 bill physically with you nowadays!)
Now, Paypal is another story, they'll screw the merchant without thought or consideration - they are 90% for the customer. We've had unscrupulous customers call PP about a "problems with their order" and get refunded. We've also had PP refund a customer (of course reversing charges so we lost money) because the customer said they never got the package - even though it was shipped UPS to them with tracking showing delivery. PP's response? It wasn't shipped adult signature required - so since it wasn't signed for, they can't show it made it there even though UPS showed it dropped off. Two or more of these and they lock your account for review. After review, they like to stick you with a reserve (holding your money for 180 days and then 10% or so). You can argue with them, but no matter how much proof you have, you (as a merchant) lose. They did good with the company for 3 years before this started, all because a customer ordered a product (~$300) that wasn't what they wanted, but waited over 45 days to try returning it and got refused by the company (duh!). They called PP and that's when the fiasco started.
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Grumbaki said:
US laws allow a consumer to challenge a fraudulent transaction, and the bank has to investigate and refund it if the investigation is not complete within 30 days (They may lose later, but that almost never happens). Its weighed heavily in favor of the consumer. If a consumer gets a expensive item and files a claim that he received a empty box, the business loses. If its a card present situation, the dealer does not lose, but if its a internet transaction, the seller takes it in the shorts.
As to your hearing from a reliable source about Paypal , I'd only say that as a seller, I've received up to $2200 back from PayPal for a transaction with a stolen credit card.
The ones who do not follow PayPal's simple steps are the ones who complain. They are extremely simple:
1. Ship with tracking to the buyers confirmed address. (If you ship it somewhere else, you are sol)
2. If over $250, use signature confirmation.
3. They recommend insurance for expensive items, you can't get a paypal refund if the shipper crushes your item.
4. I'll add, you must not ship using the buyer's Fedex, UPS, etc account. The account holder can divert the shipment to Nigeria, and they do.
Follow the rules and use common sense and you will be covered. It might be frustrating to have to wait for Paypal to complete their investigation, but it gets resolved in a few weeks. I've had PayPal call me and ask me to stop shipment on a item as soon as they discovered a fraud. This has prevented me from going thru the hassle, since credit card companies do not cover a seller in the USA (for online sales)
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Hi,
Thanks for all the replies. FYI, Yes I did place the order from Panama (my second home), BUT the delivery of the ordered lens was to my REGISTERED US card address, so that was not the problem. The problem is that Canon automatically rejects ANY order coming from outside the USA, period.
Now as an update, yesterday I ordered a refurb 5DIII, from Panama, but using a VPN showing I was in the USA. It was also cancelled without any notice to me. When I called to verify the order was received, I was told it was cancelled because the cc could not be verified. But my US telephone # was never called by Canon and the cc company verified that no attempt was made to contact them or charge the card. I did not bother to go the same route of asking the detail of why it was rejected...why bother.
The service person was apologetic when I said, OK, can you take my order. Of course, she could not, because it was then out of stock.
The lesson is that if you want a fast moving item, call at 7AM everyday to see if they have it. The service person admitted that they have many issues reported about online ordering.
And to the person who called my claim BS explaining hard/soft CC rejects...My claim I believe stated that after waiting to speak with a supervisor who clould tell me why the order was canceled I was transferred to someone in their online security dept. He told me the reason was indeed that the order came form a IP address outside of the USA. No one ever saw the the CC number was correct, matched the 3 digit code, address matched, etc.
Again, thanks for all who replied.
Thanks for all the replies. FYI, Yes I did place the order from Panama (my second home), BUT the delivery of the ordered lens was to my REGISTERED US card address, so that was not the problem. The problem is that Canon automatically rejects ANY order coming from outside the USA, period.
Now as an update, yesterday I ordered a refurb 5DIII, from Panama, but using a VPN showing I was in the USA. It was also cancelled without any notice to me. When I called to verify the order was received, I was told it was cancelled because the cc could not be verified. But my US telephone # was never called by Canon and the cc company verified that no attempt was made to contact them or charge the card. I did not bother to go the same route of asking the detail of why it was rejected...why bother.
The service person was apologetic when I said, OK, can you take my order. Of course, she could not, because it was then out of stock.
The lesson is that if you want a fast moving item, call at 7AM everyday to see if they have it. The service person admitted that they have many issues reported about online ordering.
And to the person who called my claim BS explaining hard/soft CC rejects...My claim I believe stated that after waiting to speak with a supervisor who clould tell me why the order was canceled I was transferred to someone in their online security dept. He told me the reason was indeed that the order came form a IP address outside of the USA. No one ever saw the the CC number was correct, matched the 3 digit code, address matched, etc.
Again, thanks for all who replied.
awinphoto said:
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langdonb said:
There are lots of protections built in to prevent fraud, you are not going to fool them by using a different VPN. As soon as you try something like that, its marked as a likely fraud.
Trying to claim you are in the US when you are not is fraud. I suspect that you are now marked in the card processors database as a fraudulent name and address. That database is shared by perhaps 10,000 companies.. Its not good to try and fool credit card processors, they may bite back.
All companies use a credit card processor, they pay big $$ to screen cards for dozens of items that may point to a fraudulent purchase. I do the same for my small company. No one deals direct with the credit card companies except the card processors, and they reject cards before they ever get to the company.
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Thanks for your comments. Living outside of the US most of the time brings challenges to buying online. I buy everything online and it is delivered to my address in USA or to friends e=who are coming to visit. I have purchased countless items, from $10.00 to $5000.00 items from various merchants, all without problems. Some times I am asked to call them and verify data, most time not.
What aggravates me about Canon Direct is that one is not given a chance to verify anything, they just cancel with no explanation. I could understand if I were shipping to an address other than my billing address...we could go on and on about this....the bottom line is that Canon's online ordering is flawed in the sense that they shoot to kill first and don't even ask questions.
The whole idea of my original post was to give a heads up to others.
End of thread unless Canon wants to address they are behind in technology for online processing of their worldwide customers.
What aggravates me about Canon Direct is that one is not given a chance to verify anything, they just cancel with no explanation. I could understand if I were shipping to an address other than my billing address...we could go on and on about this....the bottom line is that Canon's online ordering is flawed in the sense that they shoot to kill first and don't even ask questions.
The whole idea of my original post was to give a heads up to others.
End of thread unless Canon wants to address they are behind in technology for online processing of their worldwide customers.
Mt Spokane Photography said:
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He's exactly right. I spent many years working for the B2B business that actually does nearly all of the financial processing for MC/Visa, etc., and your card has now been flagged. Thieves love to buy electronics with stolen cards, so it's not surprising they would be so cautious.Mt Spokane Photography said:
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Well I did eventually buy the lens in the US on Ebay and a friend brought it down to Panama. And I just ordered a refurb 6D at Canon Direct. Hopefully they will not cancel the order. I called via Skype and the body is to be delivered to my registered CC address in USA. I called the CC company 30 minutes after the order was made and Canon had already charged the card and it was authorized, so maybe I will get this one.
As someone said, canon is playing it safe by not filling any non US based orders. It would be nice if they posted that on their website to say a lot of grief to people like myself...
Thanks for all your comments.
As someone said, canon is playing it safe by not filling any non US based orders. It would be nice if they posted that on their website to say a lot of grief to people like myself...
Thanks for all your comments.
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