Breakthrough Photography Launches World's First Tempered GND & ND Filters

scottkinfw

Wildlife photography is my passion
CR Pro
Bungle said:
Funny that a couple of years ago I was just looking for a good protective filter to complete weather seals, Graham putting the smack down on a reviewer on amazon is what sold me.
I don't remember what the reviewer was complaining about but it was pretty unreasonable. And rather than kiss the guys kiester he basically told him to go <blank> himself.
I'm so sick of people crying expecting companies to bend over and cater to their ridiculousness. Graham berating the guy was a breath of fresh air.
I now have BP protective filters on pretty much everything, and recently started using their X4 CPL and couldn't be happier with it. The 3stop ND just came in the mail today.

OH! And I recently toppled a tripod at it's lowest setting with camera attached. I was packing up to leave after a short trip and the ground was a little more uneven than I expected. The filter hit the rock and sand and got scuffed up just a little bit. I talked to someone via their facebook and a few days later I had a replacement in my hands. Free.

I agree with an earlier post (in german) about personality mirroring. You come off like a jerk, expect to be treated like one.
Hey Bungle. I don't know if that incident with Graham was with me, but I don't remember that I was the target of his abuse on this forum.
I would ask you to consider how you would feel if you got the "treatment". Maybe it wouldn't be as amusing as it was when someone else got reamed.
You could very well be the next victim of his arrogant abuse, so if not for the sake of insight, then at least for the sake of understanding that you could be victimized, think that through.

sek
 

Bungle

I'm New Here
Feb 26, 2015
21
0
scottkinfw said:
Bungle said:
Funny that a couple of years ago I was just looking for a good protective filter to complete weather seals, Graham putting the smack down on a reviewer on amazon is what sold me.
I don't remember what the reviewer was complaining about but it was pretty unreasonable. And rather than kiss the guys kiester he basically told him to go <blank> himself.
I'm so sick of people crying expecting companies to bend over and cater to their ridiculousness. Graham berating the guy was a breath of fresh air.
I now have BP protective filters on pretty much everything, and recently started using their X4 CPL and couldn't be happier with it. The 3stop ND just came in the mail today.

OH! And I recently toppled a tripod at it's lowest setting with camera attached. I was packing up to leave after a short trip and the ground was a little more uneven than I expected. The filter hit the rock and sand and got scuffed up just a little bit. I talked to someone via their facebook and a few days later I had a replacement in my hands. Free.

I agree with an earlier post (in german) about personality mirroring. You come off like a jerk, expect to be treated like one.
Hey Bungle. I don't know if that incident with Graham was with me, but I don't remember that I was the target of his abuse on this forum.
I would ask you to consider how you would feel if you got the "treatment". Maybe it wouldn't be as amusing as it was when someone else got reamed.
You could very well be the next victim of his arrogant abuse, so if not for the sake of insight, then at least for the sake of understanding that you could be victimized, think that through.

sek
If it was unwarranted then obviously that would be a problem and I would completely agree. This person went onto a review site expecting unrealistic things to happen without actually contacting anyone.

What I took away from it is: Graham cares deeply about/stands by his product. Contact them and they will fix the problem. My take away was further confirmed by them sending a new filter when I admitted the damage was completely my fault. They didn't seem to care at all about that and sent me a new one the next day.
 

Maximilian

The dark side - I've been there
CR Pro
Nov 7, 2013
3,226
1,477
Germany
scottkinfw said:
What does YMMV mean?
Hi Scott! Sorry for using an abbreviation you don't know. And maybe I used it wrong (German native speaker) but I got used to it here ;)
As far as I understand YMMV = Your Mileage May Vary (in gasoline consumption) is also used as = Your results/opinion may be different.

I am glad you were treated well, I only report on the poor treatment I received.
And that is you absolute right. And I admit that Grahams reaction in other threads was also disturbing to me.
But I also don't know what happened in detail, so in such conflicts you don't even know the truth when carefully listening to both sides.
 

Maximilian

The dark side - I've been there
CR Pro
Nov 7, 2013
3,226
1,477
Germany
YuengLinger said:
How many of these replies, particularly from new posters, are being written by employees or others with an investment interest in Breakthrough? C'mon, y'all, 'fess up. ;)

This grassroots, social media buzz generating is giving me a headache.
Don't forget those competitors doing the same thing the other way 'round.
(not accusing anyone here)
Considering this makes the headache becoming a severe migraine ;)

The only three choices are to stay away, to ignore or to read between the lines.
 

M_S

EOS 90D
Jul 31, 2013
158
10
PhotographerJim said:
M_S said:
I wonder: How do you adjust the polarizer effect with the 10 stop combi pol filter????

Live View
Could be a very hard task as you don't see much. I will have to try it out but I guess he pol first and then ND option is far easier to manage.
 

ahsanford

Particular Member
Aug 16, 2012
8,617
1,642
Woody said:
The Sony A7 camera series have rendered the use of filters (apart from polarisers) obsolete through the use of PlayMemories Camera Apps. Hopefully, all cameras will made this way in future.

I believe the PlayMemories ND grad is a multi-shot solution, is it not? That's far from obsoleting anything.

https://petapixel.com/2015/12/17/sonys-new-sky-hdr-app-replaces-the-graduated-nd-filter-for-landscapes/

It's just a streamlined process for bracketing via HDR, correct? I'll keep using my grads, thanks.

- A
 

Woody

EOS R
Jul 20, 2010
1,157
82
ahsanford said:
I believe the PlayMemories ND grad is a multi-shot solution, is it not?

Yup. It also produces 2 RAW shots. This (i) simplifies workflow (ii) removes the need to carry a bag of filters and filter holder (iii) reduces costs and (iv) eliminates filter-related issues such as discoloration, distortion and vignetting.

An impressive example of the use of in-camera app:
http://www.fredmiranda.com/forum/topic/1485089/0
 

Ladislav

EOS RP
Feb 13, 2013
332
44
39
Czech Republic
Woody said:
ahsanford said:
I believe the PlayMemories ND grad is a multi-shot solution, is it not?

Yup. It also produces 2 RAW shots. This (i) simplifies workflow (ii) removes the need to carry a bag of filters and filter holder (iii) reduces costs and (iv) eliminates filter-related issues such as discoloration, distortion and vignetting.

An impressive example of the use of in-camera app:
http://www.fredmiranda.com/forum/topic/1485089/0

That is just another option to use. It is not direct replacement which will make filters obsolete for everyone.
 

ghosthouse

I'm New Here
Sep 9, 2016
13
0
Maximilian said:
YuengLinger said:
How many of these replies, particularly from new posters, are being written by employees or others with an investment interest in Breakthrough? C'mon, y'all, 'fess up. ;)

This grassroots, social media buzz generating is giving me a headache.
Don't forget those competitors doing the same thing the other way 'round.
(not accusing anyone here)
Considering this makes the headache becoming a severe migraine ;)

The only three choices are to stay away, to ignore or to read between the lines.

I resemble this persona and am compelled to reply…

I am real, as in genuine. A genuine nobody without a conflict of interest. Long time reader and more recently a spotty contributor. Happy to be a part of the community. In this era of fake news I completely understand any skepticism or reading me between the lines / ignoring :)
 

ahsanford

Particular Member
Aug 16, 2012
8,617
1,642
Woody said:
ahsanford said:
I believe the PlayMemories ND grad is a multi-shot solution, is it not?

Yup. It also produces 2 RAW shots. This (i) simplifies workflow (ii) removes the need to carry a bag of filters and filter holder (iii) reduces costs and (iv) eliminates filter-related issues such as discoloration, distortion and vignetting.

An impressive example of the use of in-camera app:
http://www.fredmiranda.com/forum/topic/1485089/0

You just described the upsides of HDR over front-filtering; you are not proving the obsolescence of front filters.

There's a reason why people carry those filter bags around: one can nail exposure in-camera while capturing everything at the same moment in time. HDR / compositing / apps do not.

Don't get me wrong -- HDR/compositing shots are valuable tools when some compositions' contrast / skylines don't allow grad use, sure, but front filtering remains my preference.

- A
 

100

EOS 90D
Nov 9, 2013
183
11
ahsanford said:
Woody said:
ahsanford said:
I believe the PlayMemories ND grad is a multi-shot solution, is it not?

Yup. It also produces 2 RAW shots. This (i) simplifies workflow (ii) removes the need to carry a bag of filters and filter holder (iii) reduces costs and (iv) eliminates filter-related issues such as discoloration, distortion and vignetting.

An impressive example of the use of in-camera app:
http://www.fredmiranda.com/forum/topic/1485089/0

You just described the upsides of HDR over front-filtering; you are not proving the obsolescence of front filters.

There's a reason why people carry those filter bags around: one can nail exposure in-camera while capturing everything at the same moment in time. HDR / compositing / apps do not.

Don't get me wrong -- HDR/compositing shots are valuable tools when some compositions' contrast / skylines don't allow grad use, sure, but front filtering remains my preference.

- A

It’s not HDR.

Quote from Fred Miranda:
64 average images at 0.5s shutter speed for the background (Equiv. 30 sec.) and 4 images at 1/3s for the foreground. (2-image focused stacked using Zerene in post)
The great thing about the in-camera SR app is that I ended up with only 2 RAW files, one for the background and one for the foreground.


64 times the same exposure averaged will get you more or less the same as 1 long exposure of 32 seconds. So it will get you the same result as a 6 stops ND filter.
He used this to smoothen the water and clouds (they move due to the wind) just like you would use an ND filter. Without the app you need to average 64 images in photoshop, with the app it’s done in camera.
With ultra wide angle lenses this will be the better option I think.

With HDR you combine different exposures to get the full dynamic range of the scene when it’s greater than the camera is able to capture in a single exposure. The images are not averaged in that case but combined with light masks for instance.
 

privatebydesign

EOS-1D X Mark III
CR Pro
Jan 29, 2011
9,672
4,166
100 said:
ahsanford said:
Woody said:
ahsanford said:
I believe the PlayMemories ND grad is a multi-shot solution, is it not?

Yup. It also produces 2 RAW shots. This (i) simplifies workflow (ii) removes the need to carry a bag of filters and filter holder (iii) reduces costs and (iv) eliminates filter-related issues such as discoloration, distortion and vignetting.

An impressive example of the use of in-camera app:
http://www.fredmiranda.com/forum/topic/1485089/0

You just described the upsides of HDR over front-filtering; you are not proving the obsolescence of front filters.

There's a reason why people carry those filter bags around: one can nail exposure in-camera while capturing everything at the same moment in time. HDR / compositing / apps do not.

Don't get me wrong -- HDR/compositing shots are valuable tools when some compositions' contrast / skylines don't allow grad use, sure, but front filtering remains my preference.

- A

It’s not HDR.

Quote from Fred Miranda:
64 average images at 0.5s shutter speed for the background (Equiv. 30 sec.) and 4 images at 1/3s for the foreground. (2-image focused stacked using Zerene in post)
The great thing about the in-camera SR app is that I ended up with only 2 RAW files, one for the background and one for the foreground.


64 times the same exposure averaged will get you more or less the same as 1 long exposure of 32 seconds. So it will get you the same result as a 6 stops ND filter.
He used this to smoothen the water and clouds (they move due to the wind) just like you would use an ND filter. Without the app you need to average 64 images in photoshop, with the app it’s done in camera.
With ultra wide angle lenses this will be the better option I think.

With HDR you combine different exposures to get the full dynamic range of the scene when it’s greater than the camera is able to capture in a single exposure. The images are not averaged in that case but combined with light masks for instance.

This is not HDR.
Combining the two in post in Zerene is HDR.

Neither is a anything to do with filters they are about image averaging to reduce noise. The fact that he ends up with a single image made from two different exposures, each made from averaging multiple exposures (even though they are very similar, 0.3 and 0.5 sec), means it is an HDR technique.

PlayMemories ND grad is an in camera multi shot HDR technique and is an effective grad filter replacement, he didn't use that feature for these two images that went into the single image. He used the averaging option which is completely different.

By the way, there is nothing in the app that can't be done in post more effectively and with greater control.
 

Jack Douglas

CR for the Humour
Apr 10, 2013
6,722
2,119
Alberta, Canada
privatebydesign said:
100 said:
ahsanford said:
Woody said:
ahsanford said:
I believe the PlayMemories ND grad is a multi-shot solution, is it not?

Yup. It also produces 2 RAW shots. This (i) simplifies workflow (ii) removes the need to carry a bag of filters and filter holder (iii) reduces costs and (iv) eliminates filter-related issues such as discoloration, distortion and vignetting.

An impressive example of the use of in-camera app:
http://www.fredmiranda.com/forum/topic/1485089/0

You just described the upsides of HDR over front-filtering; you are not proving the obsolescence of front filters.

There's a reason why people carry those filter bags around: one can nail exposure in-camera while capturing everything at the same moment in time. HDR / compositing / apps do not.

Don't get me wrong -- HDR/compositing shots are valuable tools when some compositions' contrast / skylines don't allow grad use, sure, but front filtering remains my preference.

- A

It’s not HDR.

Quote from Fred Miranda:
64 average images at 0.5s shutter speed for the background (Equiv. 30 sec.) and 4 images at 1/3s for the foreground. (2-image focused stacked using Zerene in post)
The great thing about the in-camera SR app is that I ended up with only 2 RAW files, one for the background and one for the foreground.


64 times the same exposure averaged will get you more or less the same as 1 long exposure of 32 seconds. So it will get you the same result as a 6 stops ND filter.
He used this to smoothen the water and clouds (they move due to the wind) just like you would use an ND filter. Without the app you need to average 64 images in photoshop, with the app it’s done in camera.
With ultra wide angle lenses this will be the better option I think.

With HDR you combine different exposures to get the full dynamic range of the scene when it’s greater than the camera is able to capture in a single exposure. The images are not averaged in that case but combined with light masks for instance.

This is not HDR.
Combining the two in post in Zerene is HDR.

Neither is a anything to do with filters they are about image averaging to reduce noise. The fact that he ends up with a single image made from two different exposures, each made from averaging multiple exposures (even though they are very similar, 0.3 and 0.5 sec), means it is an HDR technique.

PlayMemories ND grad is an in camera multi shot HDR technique and is an effective grad filter replacement, he didn't use that feature for these two images that went into the single image. He used the averaging option which is completely different.

By the way, there is nothing in the app that can't be done in post more effectively and with greater control.

Scott, once again I'm new to all this, never having used an ND filter. I've read various commentary and have a general idea what is going on and now want to get set up for long exposures with the 11-24. The dinner plate out front doesn't seem too appealing but considering these will be tripod landscapes, perhaps that's not such an issue.

I'm interested in recommended resources - links, books etc. I have committed to ON1 RAW and with very limited usage it seems like it is an alternative to PS (I don't intend to get into a PS yearly license) and they are producing a lot of resource material that appears helpful. Again, I'm not at this point competent to judge all this and am still too busy with my "inside reno project" - will it ever end! :(

Anyone else care to chime in with advice also, I'm listening. The rear glass filter for the 11-24 seemed promising but ...?? :-\

Jack
 

100

EOS 90D
Nov 9, 2013
183
11
privatebydesign said:
100 said:
ahsanford said:
Woody said:
ahsanford said:
I believe the PlayMemories ND grad is a multi-shot solution, is it not?

Yup. It also produces 2 RAW shots. This (i) simplifies workflow (ii) removes the need to carry a bag of filters and filter holder (iii) reduces costs and (iv) eliminates filter-related issues such as discoloration, distortion and vignetting.

An impressive example of the use of in-camera app:
http://www.fredmiranda.com/forum/topic/1485089/0

You just described the upsides of HDR over front-filtering; you are not proving the obsolescence of front filters.

There's a reason why people carry those filter bags around: one can nail exposure in-camera while capturing everything at the same moment in time. HDR / compositing / apps do not.

Don't get me wrong -- HDR/compositing shots are valuable tools when some compositions' contrast / skylines don't allow grad use, sure, but front filtering remains my preference.

- A

It’s not HDR.

Quote from Fred Miranda:
64 average images at 0.5s shutter speed for the background (Equiv. 30 sec.) and 4 images at 1/3s for the foreground. (2-image focused stacked using Zerene in post)
The great thing about the in-camera SR app is that I ended up with only 2 RAW files, one for the background and one for the foreground.


64 times the same exposure averaged will get you more or less the same as 1 long exposure of 32 seconds. So it will get you the same result as a 6 stops ND filter.
He used this to smoothen the water and clouds (they move due to the wind) just like you would use an ND filter. Without the app you need to average 64 images in photoshop, with the app it’s done in camera.
With ultra wide angle lenses this will be the better option I think.

With HDR you combine different exposures to get the full dynamic range of the scene when it’s greater than the camera is able to capture in a single exposure. The images are not averaged in that case but combined with light masks for instance.

This is not HDR.
Combining the two in post in Zerene is HDR.

Neither is a anything to do with filters they are about image averaging to reduce noise. The fact that he ends up with a single image made from two different exposures, each made from averaging multiple exposures (even though they are very similar, 0.3 and 0.5 sec), means it is an HDR technique.

PlayMemories ND grad is an in camera multi shot HDR technique and is an effective grad filter replacement, he didn't use that feature for these two images that went into the single image. He used the averaging option which is completely different.

By the way, there is nothing in the app that can't be done in post more effectively and with greater control.

Image averaging can be done to reduce noise, but shooting 64 frames at ISO 100 tells me that was not the (main) purpose in this case.
The reason was given:
Mono Lake was extremely windy that day... The solution was capturing long exposures with the help of the Sony SR app.

In my opinion the technique in this case is used to get the smoothening effect you get with long exposures, the same thing a 6 stops ND filter would have accomplished.

Zerene stacker is a tool to increase DOF, not dynamic range.

The only reason left to call this “an HDR technique” is the small difference in exposure between the foreground and background. I didn’t ask, but I don’t think his intention was to increase dynamic range.

Does this make all ND filters redundant? No, it doesn’t but it’s a good alternative in this particular case where you want a long exposure for the smoothening effect.
 

LesC

EOS RP
CR Pro
Jun 27, 2013
293
83
Essex, UK
500px.com
Seems there are numerous filter systems all claiming to be the best or to have the most neutral ND filters etc but none seem to be able to make the perfect holder.

I'm quite happy with my Lee filters & have no desire to change them. Colour casts with the big/super stoppers are minimal & more often than not I like the effect anyway.

However the Lee holder is certainly the weak point of the system & does seem a bit cheap.

The Breakthrough holder looks nice but fitting it onto a polariser is just plain silly in my opinion.

The new WCC holder looks very promising although I would want such a fancy holder & expensive filters held on to the adaptor solely by the one thumbscrew - needs a securing catch like the ones that hold it's polariser in place. I asked about this & they said they will consider it. I'd be very interested then.

The NISA V5 Pro looks to be a good option - polariser fits in the adaptor ring like the WCC & they now make a landscape polariser (I like my Lee landscape polariser). Not sure if my Lee Little/Big/Supper stoppers will fit though ...
 

neuroanatomist

I post too Much on Here!!
CR Pro
Jul 21, 2010
24,650
2,183
ahsanford said:
+1. Graham has showed up here a 2-3 times immediately after a press release, kickstarter announcement, etc. and after last week's episode of 'Why is 'trust me' not good enough to substantiate my seemingly impossible vignetting claims?', I wonder... Has he sent a surrogate or some friendly voices in to soften up the skeptics? ::)

FTR, I'm no enemy of Breakthrough or anyone else hawking gear for that matter. I welcome a useful new product idea. I just want to see substantiation of claims + any fine print needed to attain that performance level in real use.

Their product concept looks interesting, honestly. But their claims and chief person speaking to those claims, on the other hand, have moved me 'curious / I wonder how they pulled that off / tell me more' to outright skeptical. It's nothing personal, angry or inappropriate. It's just that I tend to barter in facts / logic / proof, and responses of 'trust me' do not motivate me to reach for my wallet.

+1

When someone makes claims, then when called on to support them with evidence, they refuse, insist others just trust them, and become belligerent – that makes me highly skeptical. When that individual represents a company, and goes on to accuse their highly-reputed competitors of incompetence or outright lying, and still refuse to back up their claims with evidence – to me, that's unacceptable.
 

Jack Douglas

CR for the Humour
Apr 10, 2013
6,722
2,119
Alberta, Canada
Boy is this the real Neuro, being so soft spoken? ;) I agree and can't understand how anyone doesn't recognize the wisdom in the previous posts that point out similar. Perhaps it boils down to someone representing sales that should stick to the technical end of the business where they hopefully shine?

Jack
 

JPAZ

If only I knew what I was doing.....
CR Pro
Sep 8, 2012
1,048
166
FWIW and this is only my opinion. I have filters by B&W and by Breakthrough and am happy with both. I have CPLs UVs, and NDs (3, 6, 9 stop). There are some others in a drawer somewhere by other companies that got put into that drawer because they are not very good. I would have no problem recommending Breakthrough and feel that their claims about color cast and quality are accurate. The first purchase from Breakthrough was direct and went well but the number of customer service issues brought up on these threads have made me purchase subsequently from one of our favorite New York vendors so returns or customer service would be through them.
 

jeffa4444

EOS 5D Mark IV
Feb 28, 2013
1,515
174
67
Let look at one of the technical claims

Schott B270 is an Ultra White Glass according to Schott and has a fire polished surface. This means the surface of the glass is heated to a very high melting point to create a flat polished surface, in doing so it will be harder than ordinary plate glass. It is a form of toughened glass but not in the same realm as toughened glass you would get for oven door or severe applications where chemicals would be used to toughen the glass.

Schott B270 is being used by Nisi so the claim about being the first company with toughened glass if indeed its classified as such is not true in the camera filter market. Schott dont make any claims on there technical sheet about it being toughened. If I had to guess I would say Nisi are the supplier but I maybe wrong.

A simple Google search would explain the processes for toughened glass but like everything there are degrees of toughness.
 

jeffa4444

EOS 5D Mark IV
Feb 28, 2013
1,515
174
67
Sorry I should have pointed out tempered / toughened are inter-changeable in this context.
 
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