Breakthrough Photography Promises The Best Circular Polarizer

[grahamclarkphoto]

I still don't understand the 12k ISO problem. You mean, that in low light there is more visible noise on the small 3" rear LCD of the 5Ds R compared to a 5D II? And is this really a (serious) problem? ???

1. You have two cameras next to eachother, the Canon 5D2 and Canon 5Ds R, they both have a nearly identical sunset composition and exposure values.

2. The 5D2 is displaying the sunset on the LCD through Live View at a moderate brightness - you can compose - at ISO 25k.

3. The 5Ds R displays a black LCD through live view - you cannot compose - due to ISO 12k.

Graham

 

[grahamclarkphoto]

Sounds like the 5Ds live view could be improved easy enough with software update.

Just a little closer to on topic; now that you are working with polarizers, does than mean we can expect a variable ND filter in the not to distant future? If so, would that still give up most of the quality gains of the X3 fixed ND filters?

Yes, you're quite right due to this being a software limitation, but this indicates a bigger problem - Canon doesn't see this stuff.

Regarding variable ND - never. They're useless for outdoor photography for three reasons:

1. Can't shoot at 30mm or wider
2. Yellow color
3. Sharpness sucks

So it's a dead-end product.

Graham

 

[grahamclarkphoto]

Great to see the interaction from Graham!

I have question before purchasing the 105mm filter. What is the thickness of the filter and how is the vignetting at wide angles e.g. 16mm FF?
This is important to me in order to reduce chances of vignetting and have been looking at the Formatt Hitech 105mm UltraSlim CPL for this reason.

Thanks

What lens are you shooting with?

The X3 CPL is the worlds slimmest CPL with front threads, around 4.6mm.

Graham

 

[grahamclarkphoto]

I have question before purchasing the 105mm filter. What is the thickness of the filter and how is the vignetting at wide angles e.g. 16mm FF?

Graham can make some more or less vignetting statements comparatively to other filters he may have measured. But you can't state a hard 'it will vignette at Xmm' without more information:

• He'll need to know the lens in question. Every lens has its own filter thread to front element distance that is slightly different.
  
  
• If you are putting this polarizer in front of a slot-in filter holder with the 105 ring*, he'll need to know more about that Lee setup -- are you using a standard or UWA adaptor ring, how many slots are between the lens and the CPL, etc.

* You have to be, don't you? Not aware of any UWA lenses with a 105mm filter ring.

To truly know your vignetting situation, there are enough variables that it's often best to just build that apparatus and test it, tell everyone how it went, and let the interwebs absorb that information for future people who need that answer.

Here's my hyperspecific offering on that front:
http://www.canonrumors.com/forum/index.php?topic=21554.msg409701#msg409701

- A

Nice article!

But why wouldn't you simply mount the CPL on the lens, behind the adapter ring like this:

LENS > CPL > ADAPTER RING > HOLDER > GND

As opposed to:

LENS > ADAPTER RING > HOLDER > GND > CPL ?

A CPL has three optical planes, and the further from the front lens element the more resolving power is reduced, which becomes discernible on 36MP, so in theory it's best to put quantities of flat optical planes closer to the front lens element, ideally behind the rear lens element, if possible.

Graham

 

[ahsanford]

I still don't understand the 12k ISO problem. You mean, that in low light there is more visible noise on the small 3" rear LCD of the 5Ds R compared to a 5D II? And is this really a (serious) problem? ???

1. You have two cameras next to eachother, the Canon 5D2 and Canon 5Ds R, they both have a nearly identical sunset composition and exposure values.

2. The 5D2 is displaying the sunset on the LCD through Live View at a moderate brightness - you can compose - at ISO 25k.

3. The 5Ds R displays a black LCD through live view - you cannot compose - due to ISO 12k.

Graham

Oh goodness, I think the lightbulb finally went on about the high ISO comment. Graham, are you framing a shot with in LiveView with a high stop ND filter already in place? That would explain it if so; you'd need explosive high ISO values to see anything through that for framing.

Why not nail everything -- polarization, framing, focus, etc. -- without the big stopper in place, and then just drop it in with a corresponding shutter speed change? (I thought that was how everyone used those kind of filters.)

- A

 

[jeffa4444]

Couple of points according to various testers the Canon 5DS optimal f stop is between f5.6 & f8, on my 6D its been f11 to f16 that means the 5DS is defraction limited.

Graham I know your mainly a landscape shooter but Ive never been limited so far by the live view on the 5DS I always compose with the filter holder off the camera, and add it after manually focusing. I dont like shooting anything over 200 ISO and will only ever go to 400 ISO. In two months of using the 5DS I now understand its limitations but equally understand its strenghs and will always have another lower MP camera or one with wider dynamic range. When you get it right the images from this camera blow me away including using "faulty" filters. When Lee brought out the 10 stop filter no one else was doing one, the blue cast is much improved on the new filters they produce now I have one for my Olympus OM-D so your example must be older.

 

[lholmes549]

Great to see the interaction from Graham!

I have question before purchasing the 105mm filter. What is the thickness of the filter and how is the vignetting at wide angles e.g. 16mm FF?
This is important to me in order to reduce chances of vignetting and have been looking at the Formatt Hitech 105mm UltraSlim CPL for this reason.

Thanks

What lens are you shooting with?

The X3 CPL is the worlds slimmest CPL with front threads, around 4.6mm.

Graham

Sorry I should have given more info!
I'm planning to use this on the Canon 16-35mm f/4L IS in conjunction with the Lee Filter holder and 105mm adapter ring.

I didn't mean to give the impression that I expected an answer based on an exact set up as ahsanford mentioned, but just wanted an answer in relation to the other offerings from different manufacturers e.g. Formatt, Lee etc.

Your answer of 4.6mm with front threads is all I needed to know, so thank you for your answer but if you have any more info in regards to vignetting on the 16-35 I'd be interested to hear!

I also see you've been advocating using the LENS > CPL > FILTER HOLDER arrangement rather than LENS > FILTER HOLDER > 105MM CPL and have seen your arguments for sharpness and am very interested, but how does this configuration affect vignetting on say the 16-35 f/4?

Cheers

 

[jeffa4444]

Great to see the interaction from Graham!

I have question before purchasing the 105mm filter. What is the thickness of the filter and how is the vignetting at wide angles e.g. 16mm FF?
This is important to me in order to reduce chances of vignetting and have been looking at the Formatt Hitech 105mm UltraSlim CPL for this reason.

Thanks

What lens are you shooting with?

The X3 CPL is the worlds slimmest CPL with front threads, around 4.6mm.

Graham

Sorry I should have given more info!
I'm planning to use this on the Canon 16-35mm f/4L IS in conjunction with the Lee Filter holder and 105mm adapter ring.

I didn't mean to give the impression that I expected an answer based on an exact set up as ahsanford mentioned, but just wanted an answer in relation to the other offerings from different manufacturers e.g. Formatt, Lee etc.

Your answer of 4.6mm with front threads is all I needed to know, so thank you for your answer but if you have any more info in regards to vignetting on the 16-35 I'd be interested to hear!

I also see you've been advocating using the LENS > CPL > FILTER HOLDER arrangement rather than LENS > FILTER HOLDER > 105MM CPL and have seen your arguments for sharpness and am very interested, but how does this configuration affect vignetting on say the 16-35 f/4?

Cheers

Ive got the 5DS with the EF16-35mm F4L IS USM fitted Ive used the Lee system with the Landscape pola etc. not had vignetting issues. The original pola does vignette. Keep in mind that at 16mm your get limted polarising effect against blue skies etc.

 

[lholmes549]

Great to see the interaction from Graham!

I have question before purchasing the 105mm filter. What is the thickness of the filter and how is the vignetting at wide angles e.g. 16mm FF?
This is important to me in order to reduce chances of vignetting and have been looking at the Formatt Hitech 105mm UltraSlim CPL for this reason.

Thanks

What lens are you shooting with?

The X3 CPL is the worlds slimmest CPL with front threads, around 4.6mm.

Graham

Sorry I should have given more info!
I'm planning to use this on the Canon 16-35mm f/4L IS in conjunction with the Lee Filter holder and 105mm adapter ring.

I didn't mean to give the impression that I expected an answer based on an exact set up as ahsanford mentioned, but just wanted an answer in relation to the other offerings from different manufacturers e.g. Formatt, Lee etc.

Your answer of 4.6mm with front threads is all I needed to know, so thank you for your answer but if you have any more info in regards to vignetting on the 16-35 I'd be interested to hear!

I also see you've been advocating using the LENS > CPL > FILTER HOLDER arrangement rather than LENS > FILTER HOLDER > 105MM CPL and have seen your arguments for sharpness and am very interested, but how does this configuration affect vignetting on say the 16-35 f/4?

Cheers

Ive got the 5DS with the EF16-35mm F4L IS USM fitted Ive used the Lee system with the Landscape pola etc. not had vignetting issues. The original pola does vignette. Keep in mind that at 16mm your get limted polarising effect against blue skies etc.

Thanks for the input!
If I was using the CPL at 16mm it'd be for around rivers/waterfalls etc to remove reflections but cheers

 

[ahsanford]

Sorry I should have given more info!
I'm planning to use this on the Canon 16-35mm f/4L IS in conjunction with the Lee Filter holder and 105mm adapter ring.

I didn't mean to give the impression that I expected an answer based on an exact set up as ahsanford mentioned, but just wanted an answer in relation to the other offerings from different manufacturers e.g. Formatt, Lee etc.

Your answer of 4.6mm with front threads is all I needed to know, so thank you for your answer but if you have any more info in regards to vignetting on the 16-35 I'd be interested to hear!

Cheers

LHolmes, you are in luck. I could very well have that identical setup -- if you have two slots on that Lee setup and are using the Lee wide angle adaptor ring on your 16-35 (which you absolutely should!).

If that is the case, again, go here:
http://www.canonrumors.com/forum/index.php?topic=21554.msg409701#msg409701

You get 16mm without vignetting + two slots + NO CPL in that 105 ring.
You get 20mm without vignetting + two slots + CPL in place in that 105 ring.

My particular 105mm CPL was the B+W Kaesemann. Like most of the 105s I've seen, it is chunky. I just measured it, and it is a total thickness of 11.5mm or so. About 3.0-3.5mm of that is below the non-rotating ring of the CPL that you turn to thread it on to the Lee Adaptor ring, so the rest is a stouter chunk of glass and a very tall ring. So anything thinner than that could possibly get you some of that 16-20mm space back. There are 'slim' 105 CPLs, but not from B+W so I didn't pursue them. There also is a beastly stepped version (105 threads on the back, way bigger on the front) that completely gets out of the 16mm optical path, but I believe that it is discontinued.

That is, if you choose to keep that setup. Tear down the holder to just one slot and you should be fine down to 16mm.

I can't speak for Graham's method -- I've never run that test, but that's an easy test you can run at home (see the link for my rough method). I'd just slap any old 77 filter (UV or CPL) on your 16-35, then mount your Lee ring, then mount your holder and shoot an in-focus white wall. Then compare the thickness of your 77mm filter against Graham's reported 4.6mm and you should be in business.

- A

 

[ahsanford]

Ive got the 5DS with the EF16-35mm F4L IS USM fitted Ive used the Lee system with the Landscape pola etc. not had vignetting issues. The original pola does vignette. Keep in mind that at 16mm your get limted polarising effect against blue skies etc.

You must only have one slot in your holder, then. If you mean Lee's 105mm when you say 'the original pola', it's even thicker than the B+W one, I believe.

My experience is that the 105 mounting ring itself doesn't block the 16-35 f/4L IS's optical path at 16mm, but any 105mm ringed construct that pushes past that ring (like the rotatey bits of a 105 CPL) will. You will vignette there a small amount depending on how tall the CPL's turnable ring is.

So if you really need 16mm, either pull a slot out of your holder or buy a 'slim' 105 CPL. I believe that Hitech and Heliopan make them (and possibly these new Breakthrough ones, Graham?).

- A

 

[jeffa4444]

Ive got the 5DS with the EF16-35mm F4L IS USM fitted Ive used the Lee system with the Landscape pola etc. not had vignetting issues. The original pola does vignette. Keep in mind that at 16mm your get limted polarising effect against blue skies etc.

You must only have one slot in your holder, then. If you mean Lee's 105mm when you say 'the original pola', it's even thicker than the B+W one, I believe.

My experience is that the 105 ring itself doesn't block the 16-35 f/4L IS's optical path at 16mm, but any 105mm ringed construct that pushes past that ring (like the rotatey bits of a 105 CPL) will. You will vignette there a small amount depending on how tall the CPL's turnable ring is.

- A

Thats what I meant I never talked about the mounting ring.

 

[grahamclarkphoto]

I still don't understand the 12k ISO problem. You mean, that in low light there is more visible noise on the small 3" rear LCD of the 5Ds R compared to a 5D II? And is this really a (serious) problem? ???

1. You have two cameras next to eachother, the Canon 5D2 and Canon 5Ds R, they both have a nearly identical sunset composition and exposure values.

2. The 5D2 is displaying the sunset on the LCD through Live View at a moderate brightness - you can compose - at ISO 25k.

3. The 5Ds R displays a black LCD through live view - you cannot compose - due to ISO 12k.

Graham

Oh goodness, I think the lightbulb finally went on about the high ISO comment. Graham, are you framing a shot with in LiveView with a high stop ND filter already in place? That would explain it if so; you'd need explosive high ISO values to see anything through that for framing.

Why not nail everything -- polarization, framing, focus, etc. -- without the big stopper in place, and then just drop it in with a corresponding shutter speed change? (I thought that was how everyone used those kind of filters.)

- A

No, the difference here has nothing to do with ND filters, even in Olympic National Park under tree cover the ISO failed to produce a workable image on the LCD, and in order to achieve critical sharpness on the 5Ds R manual focusing on live view is pretty much a requirement.

Shooting ISO 12k software limitation = makes sense
Live View ISO 12k software limitation = Canon shot themselves

Graham

 

[grahamclarkphoto]

Couple of points according to various testers the Canon 5DS optimal f stop is between f5.6 & f8, on my 6D its been f11 to f16 that means the 5DS is defraction limited.

Graham I know your mainly a landscape shooter but Ive never been limited so far by the live view on the 5DS I always compose with the filter holder off the camera, and add it after manually focusing. I dont like shooting anything over 200 ISO and will only ever go to 400 ISO. In two months of using the 5DS I now understand its limitations but equally understand its strenghs and will always have another lower MP camera or one with wider dynamic range. When you get it right the images from this camera blow me away including using "faulty" filters. When Lee brought out the 10 stop filter no one else was doing one, the blue cast is much improved on the new filters they produce now I have one for my Olympus OM-D so your example must be older.

No, again this has nothing to do with shooting ISO. I've never shot on anything above 50 / 100.

Separate shooting ISO from Live View ISO (with exposure simulation turned off).

That's the problem here.

Graham

 

[grahamclarkphoto]

Great to see the interaction from Graham!

I have question before purchasing the 105mm filter. What is the thickness of the filter and how is the vignetting at wide angles e.g. 16mm FF?
This is important to me in order to reduce chances of vignetting and have been looking at the Formatt Hitech 105mm UltraSlim CPL for this reason.

Thanks

What lens are you shooting with?

The X3 CPL is the worlds slimmest CPL with front threads, around 4.6mm.

Graham

Sorry I should have given more info!
I'm planning to use this on the Canon 16-35mm f/4L IS in conjunction with the Lee Filter holder and 105mm adapter ring.

I didn't mean to give the impression that I expected an answer based on an exact set up as ahsanford mentioned, but just wanted an answer in relation to the other offerings from different manufacturers e.g. Formatt, Lee etc.

Your answer of 4.6mm with front threads is all I needed to know, so thank you for your answer but if you have any more info in regards to vignetting on the 16-35 I'd be interested to hear!

I also see you've been advocating using the LENS > CPL > FILTER HOLDER arrangement rather than LENS > FILTER HOLDER > 105MM CPL and have seen your arguments for sharpness and am very interested, but how does this configuration affect vignetting on say the 16-35 f/4?

Cheers

Good news, we use the Canon 16-35 F4 IS for all our research and development, considering it's the sharpest and best performing ultra wide we've ever used.

No vignetting down to 16mm on that lens.

As for putting tons of filters far away from front lens element - bad idea, especially for that lens being such a good performer.

Graham

 

[jeffa4444]

Graham
So what is the thickness of your glass? circular filters can live with thinner glass but not slot-in 2mm is about as thin as you can get.

 

[privatebydesign]

Couple of points according to various testers the Canon 5DS optimal f stop is between f5.6 & f8, on my 6D its been f11 to f16 that means the 5DS is defraction limited.

Optimal for what?

Optimal for resolution, sharpness, depth of field..........

The point I tried to make is that any impact diffraction has is the same on a a 6D or a 5DS. If you are happy with your prints from a 6D at 20" x 30" at f11, you will be more than pleased with 5DS prints at the same size and aperture, if you are able to open a suitable lens up a bit more on the 5DS it will give you even more detail if that detail falls in the smaller depth of field. Enlarge your 5DS print to twice the size of the 6D and view it from the same distance and it has less dof anyway even when shot at the same aperture.

There is no free lunch, remember, aperture and magnification alone (and viewer acuity) determine dof.

 

[grahamclarkphoto]

Couple of points according to various testers the Canon 5DS optimal f stop is between f5.6 & f8, on my 6D its been f11 to f16 that means the 5DS is defraction limited.

Optimal for what?

Optimal for resolution, sharpness, depth of field..........

The point I tried to make is that any impact diffraction has is the same on a a 6D or a 5DS. If you are happy with your prints from a 6D at 20" x 30" at f11, you will be more than pleased with 5DS prints at the same size and aperture, if you are able to open a suitable lens up a bit more on the 5DS it will give you even more detail if that detail falls in the smaller depth of field. Enlarge your 5DS print to twice the size of the 6D and view it from the same distance and it has less dof anyway even when shot at the same aperture.

There is no free lunch, remember, aperture and magnification alone (and viewer acuity) determine dof.

Yes of course, at the same print size, say 20x30, you'd be hardpressed to find a difference between the two where diffraction is concerned, but I think the assumption here is that the files are viewed at 100% their native resolution, not both at the same print size.

If viewed at their respective 100% native resolutions on a retina display, inherent diffraction is simply magnified on a large MP file, whereas before it was minimized.

Graham

 

[RobertG.]

...

Yea, Canon 5Ds R is great, but it's utterly useless for landscape photography with it's ISO 12k limitation, unfortunately. ...

Graham

Statements like this discredit you as a photographer. If you need more than ISO 12,000 for "landscape photography", you probably aim for fancy post processing and visual effects rather than a landscape shot. Maybe you should focus on graphic dsign. ISO 400 should do for most landscapes, except for astro photography.

 

[RobertG.]

I still don't understand the 12k ISO problem. You mean, that in low light there is more visible noise on the small 3" rear LCD of the 5Ds R compared to a 5D II? And is this really a (serious) problem? ???

1. You have two cameras next to eachother, the Canon 5D2 and Canon 5Ds R, they both have a nearly identical sunset composition and exposure values.

2. The 5D2 is displaying the sunset on the LCD through Live View at a moderate brightness - you can compose - at ISO 25k.

3. The 5Ds R displays a black LCD through live view - you cannot compose - due to ISO 12k.

Graham

You should take the lens cap off when shooting with the 5Ds R.