Breakthrough Photography Promises The Best Circular Polarizer

[RobertG.]

Mining the past posts in this thread, Graham, you make a few mentions of turning off Exposure Simulation in LiveView. I've heard of this done with studio strobe work and for astro, but I've not heard of this for landscapes.

Again, I don't get what you're saying as you're not being explicit when/how this happens, so I'll try to guess that specific scenario again:

1) You are setting up for landscape shot in low light, sunrise/sunset, etc.
2) Your LiveView exposure simulation is OFF.
3) It's so dark on the LCD you need to crank the ISO to frame the shot, perhaps perform 10x manual focus, etc.
4) Once the shot is framed / focused, you then go back to 100 ISO, apply filters, etc.

Is that about right? Is #2 forcing #3 to happen for you, possibly?

- A

No:

Exposure simulation turned ON shows you on Live View what your exposure parameters are
Exposure simulation turned OFF shows you on Live View the scene before the camera with the lowest F-number and ISO moves throughout the range to show you the composition. This is where it should always be so just set it and forget it.

10 photographers all have cameras made in the past 5 years, they are all shooting a sunset, for example, one person is shooting with the 5Ds R.

If you go up behind each one, you can see their composition very clearly on Live View. It's easy to compose and focus (manually at 100%), except the 5Ds R Live View is black.

Graham

You know, when you shoot a sunset, you shoot the setting sun. So there is light. Plenty of light - from the sun. If your Live View is black, you do something wrong. Even at night with just the street lights on, I can see and focus in Live View with my 5Ds R. I had no problems yet with sunsets and Live View. I shot about 1/5 sec f11 ISO 100 at sunsets, which is more than enough light for the Live View.

 

[grahamclarkphoto]

Mining the past posts in this thread, Graham, you make a few mentions of turning off Exposure Simulation in LiveView. I've heard of this done with studio strobe work and for astro, but I've not heard of this for landscapes.

Again, I don't get what you're saying as you're not being explicit when/how this happens, so I'll try to guess that specific scenario again:

1) You are setting up for landscape shot in low light, sunrise/sunset, etc.
2) Your LiveView exposure simulation is OFF.
3) It's so dark on the LCD you need to crank the ISO to frame the shot, perhaps perform 10x manual focus, etc.
4) Once the shot is framed / focused, you then go back to 100 ISO, apply filters, etc.

Is that about right? Is #2 forcing #3 to happen for you, possibly?

- A

No:

Exposure simulation turned ON shows you on Live View what your exposure parameters are
Exposure simulation turned OFF shows you on Live View the scene before the camera with the lowest F-number and ISO moves throughout the range to show you the composition. This is where it should always be so just set it and forget it.

10 photographers all have cameras made in the past 5 years, they are all shooting a sunset, for example, one person is shooting with the 5Ds R.

If you go up behind each one, you can see their composition very clearly on Live View. It's easy to compose and focus (manually at 100%), except the 5Ds R Live View is black.

Graham

You know, when you shoot a sunset, you shoot the setting sun. So there is light. Plenty of light - from the sun. If your Live View is black, you do something wrong. Even at night with just the street lights on, I can see and focus in Live View with my 5Ds R. I had no problems yet with sunsets and Live View. I shot about 1/5 sec f11 ISO 100 at sunsets, which is more than enough light for the Live View.

This issue certainly does not affect all photographers, in fact it probably doesn't affect 95% or more of photographers.

But it does affect the 5% of landscape photographers, arguably the most important niche for this camera.

Graham

 

[Loswr]

This issue certainly does not affect all photographers, in fact it probably doesn't affect 95% or more of photographers.
But it does affect the 5% of landscape photographers, arguably the most important niche for this camera.

There are lots of cameras with an upper (expanded) ISO limit of 12800 like the 5DSR, and lots with just one extra stop. With respect, your suggestion that viewing/composing a sunset in Live View with such a limit is impossible because 'the 5Ds R Live View is black' is simply ludicrous. Admittedly, I have not used a 5DsR to shoot sunsets, but I've Live View-composed plenty of very dark scenes that ended up at 30 s exposures at ISO 400 or 800 with an f/2.8 or f/4 lens on cameras with an upper limit of ISO 12800 (T1i, 7D) and have not had any issues. I suppose it's possible that there's a firmware issue with the model (although that seems unlikely given statements by others), or possibly your 5DsR is defective, or the problem in your case is user error.

 

[bholliman]

Mining the past posts in this thread, Graham, you make a few mentions of turning off Exposure Simulation in LiveView. I've heard of this done with studio strobe work and for astro, but I've not heard of this for landscapes.

Again, I don't get what you're saying as you're not being explicit when/how this happens, so I'll try to guess that specific scenario again:

1) You are setting up for landscape shot in low light, sunrise/sunset, etc.
2) Your LiveView exposure simulation is OFF.
3) It's so dark on the LCD you need to crank the ISO to frame the shot, perhaps perform 10x manual focus, etc.
4) Once the shot is framed / focused, you then go back to 100 ISO, apply filters, etc.

Is that about right? Is #2 forcing #3 to happen for you, possibly?

- A

No:

Exposure simulation turned ON shows you on Live View what your exposure parameters are
Exposure simulation turned OFF shows you on Live View the scene before the camera with the lowest F-number and ISO moves throughout the range to show you the composition. This is where it should always be so just set it and forget it.

10 photographers all have cameras made in the past 5 years, they are all shooting a sunset, for example, one person is shooting with the 5Ds R.

If you go up behind each one, you can see their composition very clearly on Live View. It's easy to compose and focus (manually at 100%), except the 5Ds R Live View is black.

Graham

You know, when you shoot a sunset, you shoot the setting sun. So there is light. Plenty of light - from the sun. If your Live View is black, you do something wrong. Even at night with just the street lights on, I can see and focus in Live View with my 5Ds R. I had no problems yet with sunsets and Live View. I shot about 1/5 sec f11 ISO 100 at sunsets, which is more than enough light for the Live View.

This issue certainly does not affect all photographers, in fact it probably doesn't affect 95% or more of photographers.

But it does affect the 5% of landscape photographers, arguably the most important niche for this camera.

Graham

This issue certainly does not affect all photographers, in fact it probably doesn't affect 95% or more of photographers.
But it does affect the 5% of landscape photographers, arguably the most important niche for this camera.

There are lots of cameras with an upper (expanded) ISO limit of 12800 like the 5DSR, and lots with just one extra stop. With respect, your suggestion that viewing/composing a sunset in Live View with such a limit is impossible because 'the 5Ds R Live View is black' is simply ludicrous. Admittedly, I have not used a 5DsR to shoot sunsets, but I've Live View-composed plenty of very dark scenes that ended up at 30 s exposures at ISO 400 or 800 with an f/2.8 or f/4 lens on cameras with an upper limit of ISO 12800 (T1i, 7D) and have not had any issues. I suppose it's possible that there's a firmware issue with the model (although that seems unlikely given statements by others), or possibly your 5DsR is defective, or the problem in your case is user error.

I am an amateur landscape photographer. I've had my 5DsR for about 6 weeks and have been using it several times per week to shoot sunrise and sunsets with no live view issues. On a couple of occasions I've had my 5DsR and 6D set-up on different tripods in the same area using both in live view at the same time and found both easy to work with and focus, no noticeable difference in the LV experience between the two cameras.

A normal situation for me is to be on site one hour to 45 minutes before sunrise, so I'm usually using a flashlight and set-up my equipment. I shoot in manual, ISO 100 and aperture of f/8 to f/22 depending on if I am planning to focus stack or am going for a sunstar effect. I shoot in live view and vary exposure by changing the shutter speed, bracketing exposures to capture everything. The process has been working well for me. Occasionally, I've used a flashlight to help achieve focus when its really dark, but only once or twice, normally I can focus fine in live view at 10x.

I typically don't use ND filters unless I'm trying to really smooth flowing water. When I am using a ND, I focus without the filter and lock it then attach the filter and shoot, making the necessary adjustments to the shutter speed for proper exposure. Overall, I'm very pleased with the 5DsR as a landscape camera.

 

[RGF]

besides from this being an advertising discussion, that difference does a small color shift make. Can't that be corrected in PS? Perhaps not perfectly but adequately?

I do NOT photograph for product catalogs - my colors are seldom accurate, rather I aim for artistically pleasing.

 

[AvTvM]

if I can gear that gives me more neutral captures requiring less work in post compared to other gear, I'll definitely get it. Some of those color shifts can be pretty hard to eliminate in post, and it it is not without side-effects / not "lossless". If the (future) Breakthrough X3 CPL we are discussing here does deliver the advantages as promised without introducing disadvantages, it should be a no brainer - since it is substantially less expensive than decent competitive products.

 

[RGF]

if I can gear that gives me more neutral captures requiring less work in post compared to other gear, I'll definitely get it. Some of those color shifts can be pretty hard to eliminate in post, and it it is not without side-effects / not "lossless". If the (future) Breakthrough X3 CPL we are discussing here does deliver the advantages as promised without introducing disadvantages, it should be a no brainer - since it is substantially less expensive than decent competitive products.

except that most of us have already have filters so a new set, even if significantly better than we would buy it. For only a slight improvement, not sure it is worth the money. If I need to replace a filter, then perhaps I would get it.

 

[xseven]

Sorry if the info was covered so far ... but how effective is the filter on blue skies at 24mm?

 

[AvTvM]

Sorry if the info was covered so far ... but how effective is the filter on blue skies at 24mm?

what do you mean? It will be effective depending on circumstances at capture ... angle of sunlight you're shooting at and probably about 100 other factors, as with any CPL. And yes, with 24mm FL [on FF sensor] you'll very likely get some uneven brighness in the sky, using (any) CPL. At least I have not seen any claims to the contrary by the makers. Since this specific filter is not out in the wild yet - but only on kickstarter as a project - there are also no user reports available either.

 

[LostBoyNZ]

Sorry if the info was covered so far ... but how effective is the filter on blue skies at 24mm?

Hi At 24mm (assuming a full frame camera) there will be quite an uneven color in the sky. This picture (24mm) should give you a rough idea what to expect in some cases, but as the person above posted it does vary quite a bit.

 

[jeffa4444]

Alternative view put forwards on "Photography" blog:-

Putting the ND filter last, or closest to the lens, will cut down on reflections which result in lens flare.

Where-ever there is a surface in front of the lens (such as a filter), there is the potential for any small unwanted reflections bouncing from the lens to be reflected back into the lens and form lens flare. Here is an example of the type of lens flare you get from a UV filter. And this filter has an anti-reflective coating (from the green tinge, you may recognise it as a single-coated filter).

All glass surfaces will cause this, including the elements in the lens itself, but the elements inside the lens typically have very good anti-reflective coatings. You will get lens flare from the lens itself if there are strong light points in the picture, but you'll get more, and in some cases much more noticeable ones, if you have a filter in front of the lens.

An ND filter, especially one that's 3 stops or more, naturally reduces reflections simply because it reduces all light. Any reflections that pass through the ND filter will be reduced by 3 stops on the way out of the filter, then if there are further reflections from the outer surface of the ND filter or from subsequent filters, these will again be reduced by a further 3 stops as they travel back inwards. This reduces reflections by 64 times, for those reflections which pass through the ND filter twice.

If you have other filters between the ND filter and the lens, there is potential for reflections from the lens to bounce off these filters and back into the lens immediately without passing through the ND filter.

(This is the same reason why a lot of ND filters with 3 stops or more (8x or more) attenuation are not coated; they don't need it so much as the light attenuation of the filter itself is as good at reducing reflections.)

So to summarise, in so far as you get lens flare by having multiple filters, you'll get less lens flare by having the ND filter the closest one to the lens.

 

[ahsanford]

Sorry if the info was covered so far ... but how effective is the filter on blue skies at 24mm?

what do you mean? It will be effective depending on circumstances at capture ... angle of sunlight you're shooting at and probably about 100 other factors, as with any CPL. And yes, with 24mm FL [on FF sensor] you'll very likely get some uneven brighness in the sky, using (any) CPL. At least I have not seen any claims to the contrary by the makers. Since this specific filter is not out in the wild yet - but only on kickstarter as a project - there are also no user reports available either.

+1. Using a CPL at 24mm FF (or 15mm crop) will give you that nasty field of view 'pseudovignetting' look in which parts of the sky at 90 degrees to the sun are dark blue and the sides that aren't will be much brighter. A new CPL product isn't going to address that -- that's a reality of CPLs.

For taming a bright sky, I try not to use CPLs under 35mm (FF) or so.

For taming reflections on glass, water, etc. go nuts using a CPL on wider angles, but keep an eye on the sky.

- A

 

[Famateur]

Side-discussion about the 5DS(R) for landscape photography in Live View notwithstanding, I appreciate Graham's on-topic information about filter comparisons, manufacturing and availability.

It's nice to have interaction from gear companies on the forum. Let's not spoil it with an argument about how a camera is used in certain situations, eh?

 

[Stu_bert]

Sounds like the 5Ds live view could be improved easy enough with software update.

Just a little closer to on topic; now that you are working with polarizers, does than mean we can expect a variable ND filter in the not to distant future? If so, would that still give up most of the quality gains of the X3 fixed ND filters?

Yes, you're quite right due to this being a software limitation, but this indicates a bigger problem - Canon doesn't see this stuff.

Regarding variable ND - never. They're useless for outdoor photography for three reasons:

1. Can't shoot at 30mm or wider
2. Yellow color
3. Sharpness sucks

So it's a dead-end product.

Graham

Thanks for the explanation, sorry to all for the diversion.

 

[jeffa4444]

Part of what Graham claimed did not sit comfortably with me so I ran it past a good friend who is one the the most eminate lens designers in the world based in Switzerland and he works with some pretty major players. He verified what I suspected in that the order of the filters at the distance they are away from the focal plane is not material to the resolution. Thickness, numbers of filters and the surface or bonded substances are and these would affect contrast. The presumption is they are all made from high grade optical glass or high grade optical resins and in the case of companies like B&W, Hoya, Formatt, Nisi, Lee Filters, Singh Ray etc they are.

 

[Maximilian]

Back to the original topic about the new CPL (now renamed to X4):

They seem to start shipping now so people can share their impressions soon.

 

[AvTvM]

that sudden re-naming to X4 was really weird. They could have thought iof it before launching the kickstarter campaign. On the other hand, name of a product is largely irrelevant to me, as long as it performs well.

 

[tpatana]

Interesting, need to keep my eye on this. Also the ND, as a recent owner of the TS-E 24. Which one people usually use, 6 or 10?

 

[Ozarker]

eminate

eminent

 

[Maximilian]

Interesting, need to keep my eye on this. Also the ND, as a recent owner of the TS-E 24. Which one people usually use, 6 or 10?

Hey tpatana! Take a look at their HP. They have a quite good nd buying guide:
http://breakthrough.photography/2015-nd-buying-guide/
Maybe this will help you to decide.


By the way:
They told me lately they would start shipping probably around Dec. 30th.
Hope they manage to do so...