Bye Canon?

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jrista said:
RLPhoto said:
Yawn. Says it wasn't scientific enough to be solid evidence anyway. I base my statements here on evidence found from real world use and from other users. Check photogy and see how Alex koloskov praises the d800 but really doesn't provide what he needs compared to his Hasselblad. It's IQ in those tests still wasnt up to par and that wasnt even the IQ180. I won't post the link because I'll let you waste more time to go find the article.

Have you ever shot MF before? I loved my 501CM and now I wish I kept to to adapt a MF back to it. If you ever shot MF, you wouldn't be having this conversation.

Well, I keep trying to make well-founded arguments, and the only thing I get in return is anecdotes. I've commandeered this thread long enough, so I'm done.

BTW, yes, I have a friend who does studio photography. I've shot Hasselblads, 31, 40, and 60mp backs (H4D). Oh, he also has a D800 for his studio work...LOVES IT. His assessment of the differences? "Subtle. D800 kicks ass on DR. They blow up just as well."

Good for him, now if this friend is real ask him why he still keeps his MF gear. If you shot these backs, did you come to appreciate the superior sync speeds, quality of DOF with faster lenses, the use of LF optics along with bellows for full tint swing movements and also the quality of the optics? I seriously doubt that.
 
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RLPhoto said:
jrista said:
RLPhoto said:
Yawn. Says it wasn't scientific enough to be solid evidence anyway. I base my statements here on evidence found from real world use and from other users. Check photogy and see how Alex koloskov praises the d800 but really doesn't provide what he needs compared to his Hasselblad. It's IQ in those tests still wasnt up to par and that wasnt even the IQ180. I won't post the link because I'll let you waste more time to go find the article.

Have you ever shot MF before? I loved my 501CM and now I wish I kept to to adapt a MF back to it. If you ever shot MF, you wouldn't be having this conversation.

Well, I keep trying to make well-founded arguments, and the only thing I get in return is anecdotes. I've commandeered this thread long enough, so I'm done.

BTW, yes, I have a friend who does studio photography. I've shot Hasselblads, 31, 40, and 60mp backs (H4D). Oh, he also has a D800 for his studio work...LOVES IT. His assessment of the differences? "Subtle. D800 kicks ass on DR. They blow up just as well."

Good for him, now if this friend is real ask him why he still keeps his MF gear. If you shot these backs, did you come to appreciate the superior sync speeds, quality of DOF with faster lenses, the use of LF optics along with bellows for full tint swing movements and also the quality of the optics? I seriously doubt that.

Faster lenses? http://www.hasselbladusa.com/products/lenses-and-accessories/h-system-lenses.aspx (Nothing faster than f/2.2 in the whole lot...FF DSLR lenses are as fast as f/1.2...)

(OK! Sorry, sorry! I'm really DONE now...just couldn't resist disproving one more non-factual response! :D)
 
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jrista said:
RLPhoto said:
jrista said:
RLPhoto said:
Yawn. Says it wasn't scientific enough to be solid evidence anyway. I base my statements here on evidence found from real world use and from other users. Check photogy and see how Alex koloskov praises the d800 but really doesn't provide what he needs compared to his Hasselblad. It's IQ in those tests still wasnt up to par and that wasnt even the IQ180. I won't post the link because I'll let you waste more time to go find the article.

Have you ever shot MF before? I loved my 501CM and now I wish I kept to to adapt a MF back to it. If you ever shot MF, you wouldn't be having this conversation.

Well, I keep trying to make well-founded arguments, and the only thing I get in return is anecdotes. I've commandeered this thread long enough, so I'm done.

BTW, yes, I have a friend who does studio photography. I've shot Hasselblads, 31, 40, and 60mp backs (H4D). Oh, he also has a D800 for his studio work...LOVES IT. His assessment of the differences? "Subtle. D800 kicks ass on DR. They blow up just as well."

Good for him, now if this friend is real ask him why he still keeps his MF gear. If you shot these backs, did you come to appreciate the superior sync speeds, quality of DOF with faster lenses, the use of LF optics along with bellows for full tint swing movements and also the quality of the optics? I seriously doubt that.

Faster lenses? http://www.hasselbladusa.com/products/lenses-and-accessories/h-system-lenses.aspx (Nothing faster than f/2.2 in the whole lot...FF DSLR lenses are as fast as f/1.2...)

(OK! Sorry, sorry! I'm really DONE now...just couldn't resist disproving one more non-factual response! :D)

Great. More like proved your ignorance that you've never shot MF before. F/2.2 on MF is a razor thin DOF.

That statement proves you have no idea what your talking about. I rest my case.
 
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Don Haines said:
So let me get this straight..... MF is better because it has a bigger sensor and more pixels....

So I pay $43,000 for a Hasselbad H50-200MS..... now I need a lens.
Another $5,200 gets me a 300MM F4.5 lens... the longest one they make...
with the crop factor, thats like a 150mm lens on a FF camera.....

You mean stitch factor? :D
 
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RLPhoto said:
jrista said:
RLPhoto said:
jrista said:
RLPhoto said:
Yawn. Says it wasn't scientific enough to be solid evidence anyway. I base my statements here on evidence found from real world use and from other users. Check photogy and see how Alex koloskov praises the d800 but really doesn't provide what he needs compared to his Hasselblad. It's IQ in those tests still wasnt up to par and that wasnt even the IQ180. I won't post the link because I'll let you waste more time to go find the article.

Have you ever shot MF before? I loved my 501CM and now I wish I kept to to adapt a MF back to it. If you ever shot MF, you wouldn't be having this conversation.

Well, I keep trying to make well-founded arguments, and the only thing I get in return is anecdotes. I've commandeered this thread long enough, so I'm done.

BTW, yes, I have a friend who does studio photography. I've shot Hasselblads, 31, 40, and 60mp backs (H4D). Oh, he also has a D800 for his studio work...LOVES IT. His assessment of the differences? "Subtle. D800 kicks ass on DR. They blow up just as well."

Good for him, now if this friend is real ask him why he still keeps his MF gear. If you shot these backs, did you come to appreciate the superior sync speeds, quality of DOF with faster lenses, the use of LF optics along with bellows for full tint swing movements and also the quality of the optics? I seriously doubt that.

Faster lenses? http://www.hasselbladusa.com/products/lenses-and-accessories/h-system-lenses.aspx (Nothing faster than f/2.2 in the whole lot...FF DSLR lenses are as fast as f/1.2...)

(OK! Sorry, sorry! I'm really DONE now...just couldn't resist disproving one more non-factual response! :D)

Great. More like proved your ignorance that you've never shot MF before. F/2.2 on MF is a razor thin DOF.

That statement proves you have no idea what your talking about. I rest my case.

Sure...but no more razor-thin than an f/1.2 lens on FF, either (however with the added benefit of over a stop more light with the FF lens over the f/2.2 MF lens...another win to FF DSLR!) Anyway, lets let the thread get back on track. We can take this discussion to another thread if you really want to continue it.
 
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pictaker said:
Hey folks,
I'been waiting so long fot the 70d.... now it's again some more weeks away-at least. :-(

Looks like I'm finally going to switch to Nikon after 8 YEARS Canon... and now i'm wondering who else?
Anyone else out there who takes the consequences of the missing features or am i the only one?



Just wondering....

People rant and rave about canon releasing rebels annually.
Now people rant and rave about xxD refresh cycle is too long.

what do you want?
 
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RLPhoto said:
Don Haines said:
RLPhoto said:
Don Haines said:
So let me get this straight..... MF is better because it has a bigger sensor and more pixels....

So I pay $43,000 for a Hasselbad H50-200MS..... now I need a lens.
Another $5,200 gets me a 300MM F4.5 lens... the longest one they make...
with the crop factor, thats like a 150mm lens on a FF camera.....

I compare this to a 5D3 and an 800mm lens, the longest in the Canon lineup...

I shoot a bird and get 1,000000 pixels on the bird portion of the image..... thats compared to the 72,900 pixels on the bird that the Hasselbad would give me... or the 921,600 on the bird that a $400 SX-50 would give me. Thats right... a $400 ps puts 12.6 times as many pixels on target as $48,200 worth of MF gear.

Tell me again how MF is always better....

Studio

Fashion

Landscapes

Better on some things, not on all.

It's king in its niche.

Btw, I've put a few frames of 4x5 velvia 50 thru a friend view camera. Stunning.

There is no question that MF has physical advantage. However, if you look back and see how fast Canon or Nikon improve their dSLR cameras in just a decade, it certainly shows the huge advantage of economic of scale by big companies. I am sure the R&D budgets of Canon and Nikon are much higher than that of a niche company such as Hasselblad, but they can recoup the cost by selling millions of copies. For the previous generation of 35mm cameras such 5D II or D700, comparing 35mm to MF does not even exist. But at least there are many reviews comparing the new 35mm camera such as D800 to the low-end MF, and I am expecting more reviews when Canon high MP camera comes to the market. Think about how the market will react when the quality gap is getting closer with wide price gap a few more years down the road.
My 2 cents.
 
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So..........

If you use a longer focal length on FF, and shoot your scene in FF size sections, and then stitch these together so that the total stitched 'sensor' area is equal to, or greater than a MF sensor, will you achieve exactly the same result as MF ?
;)
 
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Sporgon said:
So..........

If you use a longer focal length on FF, and shoot your scene in FF size sections, and then stitch these together so that the total stitched 'sensor' area is equal to, or greater than a MF sensor, will you achieve exactly the same result as MF ?
;)

Not exactly the same result, obviously. You can't get exactly the same result with 2 different MF cameras...
Same DoF? - Yes.

EDIT: That is when shooting from the same distance, using the same FL and aperture.
 
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Simba said:
RLPhoto said:
Don Haines said:
RLPhoto said:
Don Haines said:
So let me get this straight..... MF is better because it has a bigger sensor and more pixels....

So I pay $43,000 for a Hasselbad H50-200MS..... now I need a lens.
Another $5,200 gets me a 300MM F4.5 lens... the longest one they make...
with the crop factor, thats like a 150mm lens on a FF camera.....

I compare this to a 5D3 and an 800mm lens, the longest in the Canon lineup...

I shoot a bird and get 1,000000 pixels on the bird portion of the image..... thats compared to the 72,900 pixels on the bird that the Hasselbad would give me... or the 921,600 on the bird that a $400 SX-50 would give me. Thats right... a $400 ps puts 12.6 times as many pixels on target as $48,200 worth of MF gear.

Tell me again how MF is always better....

Studio

Fashion

Landscapes

Better on some things, not on all.

It's king in its niche.

Btw, I've put a few frames of 4x5 velvia 50 thru a friend view camera. Stunning.

There is no question that MF has physical advantage. However, if you look back and see how fast Canon or Nikon improve their dSLR cameras in just a decade, it certainly shows the huge advantage of economic of scale by big companies. I am sure the R&D budgets of Canon and Nikon are much higher than that of a niche company such as Hasselblad, but they can recoup the cost by selling millions of copies. For the previous generation of 35mm cameras such 5D II or D700, comparing 35mm to MF does not even exist. But at least there are many reviews comparing the new 35mm camera such as D800 to the low-end MF, and I am expecting more reviews when Canon high MP camera comes to the market. Think about how the market will react when the quality gap is getting closer with wide price gap a few more years down the road.
My 2 cents.

History has already shown MF will not be replaced by 35mm. Bigger sensor's will always have an advantage in those areas listed and their will always be that market its DESIGNED for. Don't compare the best 35mm vs a last gen MF... Compare the best to the best IE: The best 35mm cam D800 vs the Best MF cam the IQ180.
 
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RLPhoto said:
Simba said:
RLPhoto said:
Don Haines said:
RLPhoto said:
Don Haines said:
So let me get this straight..... MF is better because it has a bigger sensor and more pixels....

So I pay $43,000 for a Hasselbad H50-200MS..... now I need a lens.
Another $5,200 gets me a 300MM F4.5 lens... the longest one they make...
with the crop factor, thats like a 150mm lens on a FF camera.....

I compare this to a 5D3 and an 800mm lens, the longest in the Canon lineup...

I shoot a bird and get 1,000000 pixels on the bird portion of the image..... thats compared to the 72,900 pixels on the bird that the Hasselbad would give me... or the 921,600 on the bird that a $400 SX-50 would give me. Thats right... a $400 ps puts 12.6 times as many pixels on target as $48,200 worth of MF gear.

Tell me again how MF is always better....

Studio

Fashion

Landscapes

Better on some things, not on all.

It's king in its niche.

Btw, I've put a few frames of 4x5 velvia 50 thru a friend view camera. Stunning.

There is no question that MF has physical advantage. However, if you look back and see how fast Canon or Nikon improve their dSLR cameras in just a decade, it certainly shows the huge advantage of economic of scale by big companies. I am sure the R&D budgets of Canon and Nikon are much higher than that of a niche company such as Hasselblad, but they can recoup the cost by selling millions of copies. For the previous generation of 35mm cameras such 5D II or D700, comparing 35mm to MF does not even exist. But at least there are many reviews comparing the new 35mm camera such as D800 to the low-end MF, and I am expecting more reviews when Canon high MP camera comes to the market. Think about how the market will react when the quality gap is getting closer with wide price gap a few more years down the road.
My 2 cents.

History has already shown MF will not be replaced by 35mm. Bigger sensor's will always have an advantage in those areas listed and their will always be that market its DESIGNED for. Don't compare the best 35mm vs a last gen MF... Compare the best to the best IE: The best 35mm cam D800 vs the Best MF cam the IQ180.

No questions about this generation. I am saying the quality gap will be getting closer and price does matter. History was mostly for film, which physical size dominates the quality. Welcome to the digital world, where technologies are much easier to be improved.
 
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The whole MF vs. 35mm format argument in this thread, went on too long. I did not read it all, but however much I read...was more than enough...too much. Why? Because both sides got redundant. Camera format first and foremost, is just a personal choice of the photographer. People are different. Yet fanboys in forums are very much alike...talk about children flailing their arms around!

I challenge each of you, from now on, to make your point with fewer words, and stop being redundant. It looks very silly. If you put as much effort into your photography as you do in typing about your opinions about hardware, you might not care so much about typing the same things over and over.
 
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CarlTN said:
The whole MF vs. 35mm format argument in this thread, went on too long. I did not read it all, but however much I read...was more than enough...too much. Why? Because both sides got redundant. Camera format first and foremost, is just a personal choice of the photographer. People are different. Yet fanboys in forums are very much alike...talk about children flailing their arms around!

I challenge each of you, from now on, to make your point with fewer words, and stop being redundant. It looks very silly. If you put as much effort into your photography as you do in typing about your opinions about hardware, you might not care so much about typing the same things over and over.

Hmm. I never made my responses overly lengthy, just the ones who don't know what their talking about.
 
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Perhaps the most salient point is this:

With film, MF quality was most often noticeably higher than 35mm, and the price difference was 'x'.

With the latest digital technology the quality difference is much closer, but the price difference is 'x' times 10.

As far as FF is concerned, a good reason to bye 'Buy Canon' ;)
 
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Sporgon said:
Perhaps the most salient point is this:

With film, MF quality was most often noticeably higher than 35mm, and the price difference was 'x'.

With the latest digital technology the quality difference is much closer, but the price difference is 'x' times 10.

As far as FF is concerned, a good reason to bye 'Buy Canon' ;)

Well said!
 
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Sporgon said:
Perhaps the most salient point is this:

With film, MF quality was most often noticeably higher than 35mm, and the price difference was 'x'.

With the latest digital technology the quality difference is much closer, but the price difference is 'x' times 10.

As far as FF is concerned, a good reason to bye 'Buy Canon' ;)

+1. That's my point.
 
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RLPhoto said:
CarlTN said:
The whole MF vs. 35mm format argument in this thread, went on too long. I did not read it all, but however much I read...was more than enough...too much. Why? Because both sides got redundant. Camera format first and foremost, is just a personal choice of the photographer. People are different. Yet fanboys in forums are very much alike...talk about children flailing their arms around!

I challenge each of you, from now on, to make your point with fewer words, and stop being redundant. It looks very silly. If you put as much effort into your photography as you do in typing about your opinions about hardware, you might not care so much about typing the same things over and over.

Hmm. I never made my responses overly lengthy, just the ones who don't know what their talking about.
I challenge each of you, from now on, to make your point with fewer words, and stop being redundant.
Well just because it is an argument or heated discussion, the nature of such is going to be redundancy from either or both sides, no? Making one's point over and over again, employing different words or strategies to try to entice the other to come over from the dark side or at least to get to a point where there is a clear winner, even if it's only in one's own mind? That being said, a myriad of examples presented in different forms can somewhat quell the redundancy, yet only on the surface...
 
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Krob78 said:
RLPhoto said:
CarlTN said:
The whole MF vs. 35mm format argument in this thread, went on too long. I did not read it all, but however much I read...was more than enough...too much. Why? Because both sides got redundant. Camera format first and foremost, is just a personal choice of the photographer. People are different. Yet fanboys in forums are very much alike...talk about children flailing their arms around!

I challenge each of you, from now on, to make your point with fewer words, and stop being redundant. It looks very silly. If you put as much effort into your photography as you do in typing about your opinions about hardware, you might not care so much about typing the same things over and over.

Hmm. I never made my responses overly lengthy, just the ones who don't know what their talking about.
I challenge each of you, from now on, to make your point with fewer words, and stop being redundant.
Well just because it is an argument or heated discussion, the nature of such is going to be redundancy from either or both sides, no? Making one's point over and over again, employing different words or strategies to try to entice the other to come over from the dark side or at least to get to a point where there is a clear winner, even if it's only in one's own mind? That being said, a myriad of examples presented in different forms can somewhat quell the redundancy, yet only on the surface...

The problem is that people often debate different points. Person A will make a point. Person B will squirrel around the point made by Person A, making an argument that sounds related, but it isn't (because the debate isn't about the original argument...its about winning the argument period.) Then both parties continue to argue "their" point, and there is no way to reconcile the debate...its two people arguing apples and oranges.

RL seems to think (or acts like he thinks) the point that was made was that FF will be "better" than MF. That was never the point. The point was that FF is "closing the gap" on MF...a true and factual statement. But that isn't the point RL wants to debate...so, the argument spins around the never-ending merry-go-round...he wins the argument for his point...a point no one else is really debating, but refuses to acknowledge the original point made. People try to approach the debate for the original points from different angles (thus the redundancy, the reiteration of the same arguments in different light over and over)...but when someone refuses to even acknowledge your point...well, no amount of reiteration is really going to matter.

Medium Format vs. Full Frame...Better Gear vs. Lesser Gear...the subject is irrelevant...when the other party ignores your original points and fabricates their own....never ending merry-go-round with perpetual redundancy.
 
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jrista said:
Krob78 said:
RLPhoto said:
CarlTN said:
The whole MF vs. 35mm format argument in this thread, went on too long. I did not read it all, but however much I read...was more than enough...too much. Why? Because both sides got redundant. Camera format first and foremost, is just a personal choice of the photographer. People are different. Yet fanboys in forums are very much alike...talk about children flailing their arms around!

I challenge each of you, from now on, to make your point with fewer words, and stop being redundant. It looks very silly. If you put as much effort into your photography as you do in typing about your opinions about hardware, you might not care so much about typing the same things over and over.

Hmm. I never made my responses overly lengthy, just the ones who don't know what their talking about.
I challenge each of you, from now on, to make your point with fewer words, and stop being redundant.
Well just because it is an argument or heated discussion, the nature of such is going to be redundancy from either or both sides, no? Making one's point over and over again, employing different words or strategies to try to entice the other to come over from the dark side or at least to get to a point where there is a clear winner, even if it's only in one's own mind? That being said, a myriad of examples presented in different forms can somewhat quell the redundancy, yet only on the surface...

The problem is that people often debate different points. Person A will make a point. Person B will squirrel around the point made by Person A, making an argument that sounds related, but it isn't (because the debate isn't about the original argument...its about winning the argument period.) Then both parties continue to argue "their" point, and there is no way to reconcile the debate...its two people arguing apples and oranges.

RL seems to think (or acts like he thinks) the point that was made was that FF will be "better" than MF. That was never the point. The point was that FF is "closing the gap" on MF...a true and factual statement. But that isn't the point RL wants to debate...so, the argument spins around the never-ending merry-go-round...he wins the argument for his point...a point no one else is really debating, but refuses to acknowledge the original point made. People try to approach the debate for the original points from different angles (thus the redundancy, the reiteration of the same arguments in different light over and over)...but when someone refuses to even acknowledge your point...well, no amount of reiteration is really going to matter.

Medium Format vs. Full Frame...Better Gear vs. Lesser Gear...the subject is irrelevant...when the other party ignores your original points and fabricates their own....never ending merry-go-round with perpetual redundancy.

My previous point made exactly.
 
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pictaker said:
Hey folks,
I'been waiting so long fot the 70d.... now it's again some more weeks away-at least. :-(

Looks like I'm finally going to switch to Nikon after 8 YEARS Canon... and now i'm wondering who else?
Anyone else out there who takes the consequences of the missing features or am i the only one?



Just wondering....

Not me

I did a careful look at my type of shooting (wildlife, high FPS, long glass, ...) and decided that Nikon offers a lower cost, lower quality solution. So even though I really wanted to stick it Canon the facts told me to stay. I might re evaluate if the 200-400 is either a dog of a lens or never appears

My $0.02
 
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