Canon 1DC is IDENTICAL to 1DX other than firmware

[K-amps]

and the people working there should donate their time. After all, its immoral to charge for your work.

No one said they should donate their time or that charging for it was immoral... it is the excessive charging that I have an issue with... don't you have any problem with them charging 2x for a 1Dc that essentially has the same production cost as a 1Dx? (don't tell me the cost of the firmware spread across the bodies is $7k per body).

They are price skimming...

This has been discussed for decades in marketing textbooks if it is unethical or not... but Canon is pushing the envelope here.

 

[Promature]

Wait, um, why is this news? Video card manufacturers (AMD and nVidia) have been doing this for years. They have their consumer card and their pro card. They are physically identical to the last detail, yet the pro version is 10x more expensive. You know why? Because the pro version has drivers to run all of the workstation applications and are optimized for better performance under those applications. You know what too? If you use that pro graphics card to play video games it's going to suck wind.

Programming costs money, and is usually more expensive than any hardware costs.

 

[Axilrod]

I agree that it seems like they could sell a lot more if they priced it at $10k, but $13k does seem steep if it's the exact same $6800 camera as the 1DX with different firmware. I think Canon probably isn't worried about it since most people equate "4K" with "expensive." I get what everyone says about Canon being able to charge whatever they want, and normally I totally agree with that. But it seems like instead of actually developing a cinema dslr they just took a 1DX and figured out how to make it shoot 4K and added little red "C" to it and $$6000 to the price.

 

[Jotho]

and the people working there should donate their time. After all, its immoral to charge for your work.

No one said they should donate their time or that charging for it was immoral... it is the excessive charging that I have an issue with... don't you have any problem with them charging 2x for a 1Dc that essentially has the same production cost as a 1Dx? (don't tell me the cost of the firmware spread across the bodies is $7k per body).

They are price skimming...

This has been discussed for decades in marketing textbooks if it is unethical or not... but Canon is pushing the envelope here.

Still you don't seem to get it. What is excessive in this case? In relation to what? To what you think? High end products are normally also high margin products. That's why manufacturers like to play in that market space.

 

[Jotho]

Wait, um, why is this news? Video card manufacturers (AMD and nVidia) have been doing this for years. They have their consumer card and their pro card. They are physically identical to the last detail, yet the pro version is 10x more expensive. You know why? Because the pro version has drivers to run all of the workstation applications and are optimized for better performance under those applications. You know what too? If you use that pro graphics card to play video games it's going to suck wind.

Programming costs money, and is usually more expensive than any hardware costs.

I would argue that hardware development can be fairly expensive also.

 

[preppyak]

Yes, and RED certainly doesn't make you spend thousands of dollars on accessories (that a normal camera should just have) just to make their cameras work...

And Sony certainly isn't charging money for a firmware upgrade to actually record 4k in their FS700...

Can we stop pretending Canon is the only company doing this; EVERY video company does this. If you don't mark up products, you take huge profit losses and fold.

 

[bvukich]

Unethical... Immoral...

You keep using those words. I do not think they mean what you think they mean.

 

[peederj]

By making their products more exclusive based on price they are...

...charging what the market will bear (in their estimate) and thus maximizing profit, which in turn maximizes shareholder value, which is their obligation as a publicly held corporation.

...against the democratizing liberation of the independent filmmaker that made them so much money with the 5D2.

Democratic liberation of independent filmmakers isn't their goal or responsibility (see above). Besides...those indies that were successful using 5DII's can now afford 1D C's, right? If not, they should just buy used 5DII's from the ones that have moved up...

1) For products that don't obey scarcity economics (such as firmware/software) the "price that the market will bear" is difficult to determine as it is the maximum revenue that can be extracted from all customers optimizing for price. A million copies sold at $1 is more profitable than 90 copies sold at $10,000 etc..

2) Maintaining brand equity is more important to shareholders than short-term profits. The future value of the company is what is speculated on; a price to earnings ratio of 20 or more is common. If investors were just interested in dividends they may as well buy bonds. Canon had a coup with the 5D2 and its message of universal empowerment; if I was a shareholder I would demand an explanation why the company had ceded this strategic advantage to Panasonic with only firmware differences as a cause.

I would be fine if the camera was an open platform like a computer and had open access to the internals and allowed different firmware vendors to provide their own codecs and features; right now we have to rely on unauthorized hacker groups to do this for us. Fine, power to the hackers, but I created a lot of Canon shareholder value buying all that EF glass and I would like a company that strives to make that investment pay off rather than dangle mere firmware in front of me at enormous cost.

 

[LetTheRightLensIn]

http://www.eoshd.com/content/9044/exclusive-canon-confirm-1d-c-4k-dslr-is-same-hardware-as-the-1d-x



This is appalling enough IMO that any hacker who manages to get the 1DC firmware running on the 1DX ought to be...uhm...canonized as a saint.

I wonder if the C100 can similarly be turned into a C500.

In fact, I'm going to bet the 6D could probably do 4K video just the same if they wanted it to.

This is the sort of thing competition is supposed to destroy in a capitalist system. The companies should be releasing the best products they can at a fair markup, not artificially segmenting markets and dribbling out capability when it suits them.

The final indignity will be their refusing to *ever* send out decripple firmware for the bodies that could have ran it. They will ask you to buy a new body, just because we let them.

1. they double the price because of 4k firmware and all the talk about needing more compression power chips and special redesigned body for heat dissipation etc. all BS.
2. they made a big deal about 22MP sensors making the best video and yet the 1DC uses an 18MP sensor

dual digic iv fits in the 7D i wonder if dual digic 5+ would have fit in the 5D3 - they could have taken the market by storm even more than the 5D2 had, instead they are just going to be yet another player, one among many at best (or maybe driven 30MP at 6fps for stills)

 

[LetTheRightLensIn]

What is appalling about this?

A macbook and a macbook with creative suite have the exact same hardware, yet the one with creative suite will cost you an extra 3.5k.

Youre essentially paying for the software that costs the company money and time to develop. Programmers arent free guys.

Also being a programmer, gimme a break. Making it spit out 4k vs 1080p video takes $6000 development per camera, hahahahahahahaha. If that cost $6000 per body then considering all the other stuff the base cameras would cost $600,000.

 

[LetTheRightLensIn]

...charging what the market will bear (in their estimate) and thus maximizing profit, which in turn maximizes shareholder value, which is their obligation as a publicly held corporation.

giving up domination of a market segment to merely become a secondary player so you can charge more per copy might actually not maximize profit long run

 

[Promature]

Wait, um, why is this news? Video card manufacturers (AMD and nVidia) have been doing this for years. They have their consumer card and their pro card. They are physically identical to the last detail, yet the pro version is 10x more expensive. You know why? Because the pro version has drivers to run all of the workstation applications and are optimized for better performance under those applications. You know what too? If you use that pro graphics card to play video games it's going to suck wind.

Programming costs money, and is usually more expensive than any hardware costs.

I would argue that hardware development can be fairly expensive also.

I am talking about when the hardware is the same, be it video cards or camera bodies.

 

[bvukich]

This breaking news just in...

Photoshop elements and Creative Suite are both comprised of binary 1s & 0s, therefore it's one of my fundamental human rights to get CS for the same price as Elements! Anyone that thinks differently is immoral, unethical, and should probably be charged as a terrorist...

:

 

[Jotho]

Wait, um, why is this news? Video card manufacturers (AMD and nVidia) have been doing this for years. They have their consumer card and their pro card. They are physically identical to the last detail, yet the pro version is 10x more expensive. You know why? Because the pro version has drivers to run all of the workstation applications and are optimized for better performance under those applications. You know what too? If you use that pro graphics card to play video games it's going to suck wind.

Programming costs money, and is usually more expensive than any hardware costs.

I would argue that hardware development can be fairly expensive also.

I am talking about when the hardware is the same, be it video cards or camera bodies.

Understand and agree.

 

[Jotho]

This breaking news just in...

Photoshop elements and Creative Suite are both comprised of binary 1s & 0s, therefore it's one of my fundamental human rights to get CS for the same price as Elements! Anyone that thinks differently is immoral, unethical, and should probably be charged as a terrorist...

:

Or at least deemed persona non grata and shall never be spoken of again.

 

[Ew]

While they seem almost the same, the price structure takes into account mfg and development costs.

I'm no insider, but it's obvious that Canon had to do a lot of luring of the motion pic to industry to comment, test implementations, review, then review modify and around the circle again until a given performance leve is achieved in the end. Same for 1dx with the photography market.

Then moving on to manufacturing, how do you minimize costs without cutting off customers (1dx) ?
Its likely that running two sep lines here would cost more. The question is then, the 1Dx customer can pay for a pro series body, but for for features they don't need at the level required by a very vertical market.

So it's not: 1Dc = 1Dx + firmware
But rather: 1Dx = 1Dc - firmware

And I'm not talking algebra here, it ends up being more of a marketing approach.

Canon also needs to keep then line apart from getting to close to the 100,300,500 series bodies.

In following to another current thread .. Perhaps this is a case when a "pay for firmware" model could have been a good solution.

 

[devank]

Shawn L from pdi by any chance ?

Being a programmer myself, I agree

Shawn L.

 

[Loswr]

Unethical... Immoral...

You keep using those words. I do not think they mean what you think they mean.

Let me explain. No, there is too much. Let me sum up:

Production costs are of minuscule to no importance in determining retail price. Canon can charge what they choose. If you don't like the price, don't buy (or wait and see if it drops, ala 5DIII). A wheelbarrow is not listed among our assets.

 

[simonxu11]

Re: How canon charges 6000$ for firmware upgrade

It's Canon, you know it!!

 

[JasonATL]

I don't see the justification for outrage toward Canon for charging more for certain features in one set of firmware compared to another. As others have pointed out, this is exactly what software is. If it hasn't been mentioned already, MS Windows 7 Professional, Ultimate, etc. is just another example.

What I find disappointing by Canon is the decision (so far) to not sell an "upgrade", or more appropriately, a "conversion" kit for a 1DX to make it a 1DC.

Indeed, a la carte pricing (see, for example, the smartphone in your hand) might just be on the horizon. With Magic Lantern, we almost have this (never minding the fact that this system is, by no means, "open" or built for apps).