Canon 5D Mark iii HDMI Clean Output?

[HurtinMinorKey]

Yah, I just jumped ship to the BMCC. I ordered from Adorama last night, and i already got a notice that it is shipping this week. I guess they've figures out their supply issues.

I waited as long as I could for Canon to give me something with raw that was affordable. I like to grade my video like i grade my pictures, and there was no way i could do this with Canon.

Hopefully they'll come around soon.

 

[JasonATL]

Yah, I just jumped ship to the BMCC. I ordered from Adorama last night, and i already got a notice that it is shipping this week. I guess they've figures out their supply issues.

I waited as long as I could for Canon to give me something with raw that was affordable. I like to grade my video like i grade my pictures, and there was no way i could do this with Canon.

Hopefully they'll come around soon.

Congratulations! I suspect that you will like it and produce some very nice moving images with it.

 

[Axilrod]

Yah, I just jumped ship to the BMCC. I ordered from Adorama last night, and i already got a notice that it is shipping this week. I guess they've figures out their supply issues.

I waited as long as I could for Canon to give me something with raw that was affordable. I like to grade my video like i grade my pictures, and there was no way i could do this with Canon.

Hopefully they'll come around soon.

I would seriously consider waiting on the Blackmagic Production cam, it's definitely going to ship in July and a lot more camera for less than $1k more. I preordered it and the pocket cam, both are going to be stellar.

 

[OldGrey]

The bottom line is that if you NEED something with better IQ/DR/resolution than a 5D3, there's nothing to lament or debate... just go get it. But that doesn't render the 5D3 a terrible camera. It can be a great performer (in the right hands, in the right circumstances), especially for the price.
[/quote]

Hi sorry I was not able to watch this comment.... guess the point I was making is that if you buy a 5D3 and then go for a ninja or shuttle or whatever to use the HDMI all you will get is 1080 in 8 bit 4.2.2. To get there you would have spent more on the 5D3 and the Ninja than a BMC Production camera. OK both need solid stste drives and batteries, neither will work for long on the on-board power. The Black Magic however will shoot 4k 10bit 4.2.2 for your quick stuff and RAW if your after a lot more. So how can you sell anyone interested in Video the idea that archiving clips on 1080 , loosing the ability to reframe/zoom within your footage, shoot true 10 bit and have RAW if you need it at the same price is not a no brainer ?????
Sorry I think BMC don't have the 100,300, 500 1Dc to protect and a marketing department to hold back the chances of Canon being able to compete. Truth is if there were no Magic Lantern firmware updates to worry about, no BMC to chase I don't think Canon would be producing this firmware in anything like the same way.

After all the "quality" measures have been pondered, lets not forget the global shutter and the pleasure of being able to pan in an urban setting without fear of the straight line !

See the danger here is for a company that seeing the changes to come has begun to talk of conversion of 4k footage for stills, prints, weddings , magazines , brochures and all manner of old school stills uses ..and then sadly lost the grip on the very future they have shown !

Thank you SEGA for Sonik and the market you created for XBOX !

 

[dirtcastle]

Hi sorry I was not able to watch this comment.... guess the point I was making is that if you buy a 5D3 and then go for a ninja or shuttle or whatever to use the HDMI all you will get is 1080 in 8 bit 4.2.2. To get there you would have spent more on the 5D3 and the Ninja than a BMC Production camera. OK both need solid stste drives and batteries, neither will work for long on the on-board power. The Black Magic however will shoot 4k 10bit 4.2.2 for your quick stuff and RAW if your after a lot more. So how can you sell anyone interested in Video the idea that archiving clips on 1080 , loosing the ability to reframe/zoom within your footage, shoot true 10 bit and have RAW if you need it at the same price is not a no brainer ?????
Sorry I think BMC don't have the 100,300, 500 1Dc to protect and a marketing department to hold back the chances of Canon being able to compete. Truth is if there were no Magic Lantern firmware updates to worry about, no BMC to chase I don't think Canon would be producing this firmware in anything like the same way.

After all the "quality" measures have been pondered, lets not forget the global shutter and the pleasure of being able to pan in an urban setting without fear of the straight line !

Nobody denies the fact that Blackmagic cameras output higher quality video than the 5D3, for around the same price.

BUT BUT BUT... if you want an all-day, highly portable, run-and-gun camera that shoots FULL-FRAME, whose battery/storage options are much cheaper and lighter... the 5D3 would seem like a better option.

For me, the portability of the 5D3, combined with my existing set of Canon lenses makes the 5D3 a much better deal FOR ME (can you dig?). Plus, I'm also a stills shooter.

Having said that... if budget were not an issue... I would get a BM too. And I would get an Epic, a Phantom, etc.

 

[HurtinMinorKey]

I would seriously consider waiting on the Blackmagic Production cam, it's definitely going to ship in July and a lot more camera for less than $1k more. I preordered it and the pocket cam, both are going to be stellar.

Why i didn't get a BMPC in short: less DR, no uncompressed RAW, more expensive. Remember, it's a different sensor, so no guarantee that it's going to have the same beautiful image.

Indeed, once we start seeing vids, i may regret my decision. But i figure the reason someone gets a BMCC(as opposed to a 5D3) is for the DR and the complete control over it in post. So why would i want to compromise either of those for the BMPC?

 

[syder]

Yah, I just jumped ship to the BMCC. I ordered from Adorama last night, and i already got a notice that it is shipping this week. I guess they've figures out their supply issues.

I waited as long as I could for Canon to give me something with raw that was affordable. I like to grade my video like i grade my pictures, and there was no way i could do this with Canon.

Hopefully they'll come around soon.

I would seriously consider waiting on the Blackmagic Production cam, it's definitely going to ship in July and a lot more camera for less than $1k more. I preordered it and the pocket cam, both are going to be stellar.

Although it depends on type of kit you have elsewhere... RAW video eats disk space like there's no tomorrow. And the CPU and RAM requirements for working in RAW 4k aren't to be trifled at either. Happy to kit your post facility with a load of high end workstation computers and a 20 tb raid array - go for the 4k RAW system. Want to stick with your current 2 year old iMac - don't bother.

If you're happy with the additional costs throughout your entire production workflow then the BMC4k looks like it'll be fantastic - but for a lot of people/places which aren't dedicated production companies the extra expenses across the board make it the C100 look like a better option.

As for the 5Dmiii firmware - we'll have to wait and see how much of an improvement it provides in terms of IQ. Until it's been tested we wont know for sure, but it wont turn the 5dmiii into something that will outperform a C300.

In 2008 DSLR video was ahead of the competition (in terms of sensor size/aesthetic potential vs cost - people forget how badly the 5dmii sucked in many ways for video on release). Expecting things to simply stay that way was always unrealistic - and here we are four and half years later with a range of cameras including the three BMC's, the GH3 (for those on a shoestring budget), 1DC, C100/300, FS100/700, Red Scarlet which all do video better than DSLRs.

That doesn't mean that you can't still make stunning work with a DSLR - or that they aren't still a very tempting option for people who do both stills and video: only that most high end video production companies will use the dedicated video tools that don't have a load of (to them useless) photgraphy features. For example the autofocus system on the 5diii is great for stills - and completely useless for video. Expecting devices which don't have most of their R&D budget going into features that wont be used to outcompete dedicated video devices doesn't make a lot of sense.

 

[Axilrod]

Why i didn't get a BMPC in short: less DR, no uncompressed RAW, more expensive. Remember, it's a different sensor, so no guarantee that it's going to have the same beautiful image.

Indeed, once we start seeing vids, i may regret my decision. But i figure the reason someone gets a BMCC(as opposed to a 5D3) is for the DR and the complete control over it in post. So why would i want to compromise either of those for the BMPC?

1 stop less DR (but still more than the 5D3), but the Global Shutter and Super 35mm crop (the 2.3x on the BMCC was too much for me) and I'm all for compressed RAW, it's still a hell of a lot more flexible than H.264 DSLR files. I shot with the BMCC for one weekend and the resulting files were ridiculously huge and my 3.4 i7 iMac with SSD's/32GB RAM/2GB Video/Thunderbolt Drives could barely even play them. I wouldn't shoot 2.5K on that thing unless I was trying to make some award winning stuff, it's just not worth it.

To me it seems like Blackmagic Design priced the production cam that way to discourage people from buying the BMCC. They are taking the old BMCC bodies, putting in the new sensor and slapping a 4K sticker on it and taking the old sensors and putting them in the Pocket cams, it's pretty genius really.

Either way any of the cameras mentioned here can produce great images if used correctly, but the BMPC has the specs I've been looking for and at a ridiculously low price.

 

[Axilrod]

Although it depends on type of kit you have elsewhere... RAW video eats disk space like there's no tomorrow. And the CPU and RAM requirements for working in RAW 4k aren't to be trifled at either. Happy to kit your post facility with a load of high end workstation computers and a 20 tb raid array - go for the 4k RAW system. Want to stick with your current 2 year old iMac - don't bother.

If you're happy with the additional costs throughout your entire production workflow then the BMC4k looks like it'll be fantastic - but for a lot of people/places which aren't dedicated production companies the extra expenses across the board make it the C100 look like a better option.

As for the 5Dmiii firmware - we'll have to wait and see how much of an improvement it provides in terms of IQ. Until it's been tested we wont know for sure, but it wont turn the 5dmiii into something that will outperform a C300.

In 2008 DSLR video was ahead of the competition (in terms of sensor size/aesthetic potential vs cost - people forget how badly the 5dmii sucked in many ways for video on release). Expecting things to simply stay that way was always unrealistic - and here we are four and half years later with a range of cameras including the three BMC's, the GH3 (for those on a shoestring budget), 1DC, C100/300, FS100/700, Red Scarlet which all do video better than DSLRs.

That doesn't mean that you can't still make stunning work with a DSLR - or that they aren't still a very tempting option for people who do both stills and video: only that most high end video production companies will use the dedicated video tools that don't have a load of (to them useless) photgraphy features. For example the autofocus system on the 5diii is great for stills - and completely useless for video. Expecting devices which don't have most of their R&D budget going into features that wont be used to outcompete dedicated video devices doesn't make a lot of sense.

The BMPC shoots compressed RAW, and you're right, my brand new maxed out iMac with Thunderbolt drives could barely play the BMCC RAW files, so hopefully it will be able to play the compressed RAW from the BMPC. If not I hear Apple is releasing new Mac Pro's this year, so i'll get one of those if need be.

I never said you can't make great stuff with DSLR's, I've shot hours and hours of material this year on DSLR's and it all looks excellent. Proper lighting can make all the difference in the world regardless of the camera. DSLR's have served me well, but I've been yearning for a proper video camera for the past few years. Almost picked up an FS700 used for $6k but by the time I called the guy it was gone, so I'm gonna give this one a try.

 

[HurtinMinorKey]

I shot with the BMCC for one weekend and the resulting files were ridiculously huge and my 3.4 i7 iMac with SSD's/32GB RAM/2GB Video/Thunderbolt Drives could barely even play them. I wouldn't shoot 2.5K on that thing unless I was trying to make some award winning stuff, it's just not worth it.

I'm assuming you had the iMac with the AMD GPU? I hear that Resolve really requires Nvidia. I've heard that the new iMac (late 2012) runs the RAW files very well. I hope so, because i just ordered one, after taking a very long hard look at Windows workstations! Please let me know if i am mistaken.

To me it seems like Blackmagic Design priced the production cam that way to discourage people from buying the BMCC. They are taking the old BMCC bodies, putting in the new sensor and slapping a 4K sticker on it and taking the old sensors and putting them in the Pocket cams, it's pretty genius really.

Either way any of the cameras mentioned here can produce great images if used correctly, but the BMPC has the specs I've been looking for and at a ridiculously low price.

I agree, however, I think it is quite possible that the $1000 difference between cameras will be pure margin for black magic. In other words, the components of the BMPC will cost the same (or less) than the BMCC. But that's pure speculation on my part.

My biggest fear is that the 7D2 will do something like full raw recording for 30-60 seconds. I would have jumped at something like that. I love my 5D2, and always will, so I'm really hoping that Canon makes a comeback.

 

[Midphase]

My biggest fear is that the 7D2 will do something like full raw recording for 30-60 seconds. I would have jumped at something like that. I love my 5D2, and always will, so I'm really hoping that Canon makes a comeback.

I seriously doubt that the 7D2 will do something that even the 1D C can't do. For Blackmagic to be coming to market with this new 4K camera in July means that they've pretty much been co-developing all 3 of their cameras all along and that it's quite likely that the 4K just wan't ready for the public last year. For Canon to be suddenly competing with them would mean that they would have had to have known about the BMCC and in development with their response all along. In addition, it would have required for Canon to actually give a crap about their growing video base which they really don't appear to.

Our best hope is that the new 5D3 firmware (which I'm sure will come in the new 7D2) will result in a somewhat improved video image through an external recorder. If the difference is mild to unnoticeable, then Canon might as well say goodbye to the DSLR video market that they so luckily gained by accident.

Every day I'm tempted to put my 5D3 up on eBay, then I remind myself that the 5D3 is a formidable stills camera, and I do enjoy shooting still photography as well. Rather my guess is that in the not too distant future I'll own the new BM Pro Camera (and most definitely the pocket one).

 

[LetTheRightLensIn]

OK I was an idiot. Yes! It does deliver full-size clean HDMI out! You need to hit INFO a bunch of times while in video mode to bring up a special full size mode! Thank god.

 

[LetTheRightLensIn]

Nobody else has anything to say about the new firmware??

 

[LetTheRightLensIn]

So I heard Canon Announced that in the April of 2013, or next month, the Canon 5D Mark iii would get an update which would allow for a clean HDMI output. Does this mean that we can use an external recorder such as the BlackMagic Hyperdeck Shuttle for external recording? If so, then can we actually record at a higher fps such as 60p at Full HD? if not, then what kind of impact does this have on videomakers? Thank You in Advance!

It won't give 60p. Hopefully the better compression will make a noticeable difference. Depends how much of the problems occur before the compression stage. Maybe not.

It won't give you noticeable difference, trust me. I'm using Canon 1D C with Atomos Ninja 2 external recorder. if you don't do heavy colour grading or keying/compositing, there is no difference at all.

Yeah I'm starting to think that you may have been correct. The issues seem to be with the weird softening Canon is doing at some stage and with the 8bits and not as much as the compression engine in the 5D3 (which is better than the one in the 5D2). I haven't tried any tricky scenes yet though. Maybe for those??????? So far it seems it seems of somewhat dubious value. But I haven't done much yet. But yeah you may have been right. I'm not sure it even helps grading any.

I also lost my ML software by going to the new firmware.

At first I though the new firmware made things sharper, but I'm pretty sure now that I just tricked myself.

 

[JasonATL]

Nobody else has anything to say about the new firmware??

LTRLI: You're talking about the Canon firmware? Where did you get the new firmware? It doesn't appear to be available for download yet. That might be why others, like me, who might be interested in it have not received it yet.

 

[LetTheRightLensIn]

Nobody else has anything to say about the new firmware??

LTRLI: You're talking about the Canon firmware? Where did you get the new firmware? It doesn't appear to be available for download yet. That might be why others, like me, who might be interested in it have not received it yet.

It got leaked and various people had it on dropbox and the like. The link I got it from is dead. EOS HD had a link that had still worked. Don't know if it still does. It's easy to find since the firmware news is on their front page. There are links on POTN and all over. Google google.

Hope to test f/8 tomorrow.

 

[JasonATL]

It got leaked and various people had it on dropbox and the like. The link I got it from is dead. EOS HD had a link that had still worked. Don't know if it still does. It's easy to find since the firmware news is on their front page. There are links on POTN and all over. Google google.

Hope to test f/8 tomorrow.

Thanks. I'll just wait two more days until Canon sends me the e-mail. I'm too busy editing my BMCC video footage from a weekend trip in which I didn't even touch the 5D3. My wife got some great photos with the 5D3. If it sounds like I've moved on...

 

[LetTheRightLensIn]

It got leaked and various people had it on dropbox and the like. The link I got it from is dead. EOS HD had a link that had still worked. Don't know if it still does. It's easy to find since the firmware news is on their front page. There are links on POTN and all over. Google google.

Hope to test f/8 tomorrow.

Thanks. I'll just wait two more days until Canon sends me the e-mail. I'm too busy editing my BMCC video footage from a weekend trip in which I didn't even touch the 5D3. My wife got some great photos with the 5D3. If it sounds like I've moved on...

Kinda scary, it sounds like everyone has moved on. This forum used to be post crazy when news like new firmware or this or that came out and now there will be no posts for days even after news! Even my begging for some more posts only brought but your response and that after a wait.

If you've seen my other post it is amazing what the camera actually seems to get off the sensor in 1920x1080, decent amount of DR and good detail, the compression engine seems to work well (at least for the soft, low DR signal it is fed) but why does it get fed a soft, low DR signal when the ML test implies that their is some much more awesome quality coming off the sensor at 24fps? Maybe that source is too slow to actually feed the video engine? But it seems like that IS the source that then gets played with and fed into the compression engine.

 

[HurtinMinorKey]

If you've seen my other post it is amazing what the camera actually seems to get off the sensor in 1920x1080, decent amount of DR and good detail, the compression engine seems to work well (at least for the soft, low DR signal it is fed) but why does it get fed a soft, low DR signal when the ML test implies that their is some much more awesome quality coming off the sensor at 24fps? Maybe that source is too slow to actually feed the video engine? But it seems like that IS the source that then gets played with and fed into the compression engine.

We know that the sensor puts out a 14bit stream. The processor then quickly and crudely compresses the files for storage. My guess is that without this crude compression, you would overload all the buffers, because the processors weren't designed for efficient compression at high speed.

 

[LetTheRightLensIn]

If you've seen my other post it is amazing what the camera actually seems to get off the sensor in 1920x1080, decent amount of DR and good detail, the compression engine seems to work well (at least for the soft, low DR signal it is fed) but why does it get fed a soft, low DR signal when the ML test implies that their is some much more awesome quality coming off the sensor at 24fps? Maybe that source is too slow to actually feed the video engine? But it seems like that IS the source that then gets played with and fed into the compression engine.

We know that the sensor puts out a 14bit stream. The processor then quickly and crudely compresses the files for storage. My guess is that without this crude compression, you would overload all the buffers, because the processors weren't designed for efficient compression at high speed.

A pre-compression before the h.264 compression engine???

If the liveview 'raw' DNG buffer can toss those frame out at 24fps (ignoring buffer clog) why can't they just clip to 1920x1080 and 10bits (or 8bits if their HDMI system won't handle 10bits) and output that over the HDMI at 24fps without any other junk being done to it and just toss each frame internally afterwards? Then, at the least, we'd get sooo much crisper video when using an external recorder.

So as each of these hits the 512MB buffer they send it to HDMI after first clipping to 1920x1080 and then they just delete it from the buffer so it never overflows?

Maybe ML doesn't have access to the proper hooks to do that but couldn't Canon do that?