Canon aiming for a $799 full-frame camera? [CR2]

neuroanatomist

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Ah, another thread with the usual suspects seemingly bewildered about why anyone would want a crop body rather than FF. To summerize their arguments:
Ah, another thread with the usual suspects believing that their personal wants are representative of a market segment that is of high importance to Canon. The fact that the xxD series, 5-series and even the 1D X were updated more frequently than the 7-series doesn’t seem to impinge on their consciousness. They wants it, Precious, and they must haves it, Gollum, Gollum.

I won't even get into DOF, because whenever I mention that some people want more DOF, and it is easier (again due to cropping and composition) to get your shot with more DOF with a crop camera, it seems to go completely over the head of the "FF is always better" crowd.
Best to not get into it, given that your understanding of the concepts is evidently flawed.
 

David - Sydney

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I'm sure there will be plenty of that. I'm more wondering if this gets the M6II treatment and comes without an EVF or some other piece of hardware that adds cost.
Yes, an option could be a full frame version of the M200 for instance. Would definitely be the lightest and smallest FF body on the market then and perhaps be a introduction into the R mount ecosystem from camera phone users... but the jpeg/HEIF engine would need to match what current iPhone/Andriod phones can produce (in auto mode). Users can use other modes when they understand the differences to auto.
Canon would then have an upgrade path within the R mount ecosystem which the current M series isn't

Just need appropriately size/cost lenses to suit :cool:
 
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InchMetric

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As I've been saying for years, I would absolutely love a full frame version of the inexpensive Canon M6. No need for a 1960s EVF--no real person needs that in 2021, providing a decent screen is available. This would easily cut costs down. Canon PLEASE make this as TINY as possible. If you can make it the size of an M6, double bravo. If it's super slightly bigger than an M6, then single bravo.

I will purchase for $799 or less. Do it!
Sigma has the tiny full frame I would like to see alongside my R5 or its gripped successor.

I note that all those who buy an $800 loss leader are good candidates to buy $1600+ L lenses like the 70-200 f4 and many others. Start with the kit lens and many will add high profit lenses. Without having to switch from crop to FF.
 
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David - Sydney

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There seems to be 2 camps for the APS-C market segments:
1. Rebel (xxD) style for cost/size
2. 7D with dual slots, weather sealing, AF and fps with pricing between 6D/5D with "reach"

For #1, the M series already fits this end of the market well but isn't a market entry in the R mount ecosystem. A full frame R mount entry body could co-exist with the M series as a more expensive option with larger lenses but I can't see it replacing the M series. This would be supporting 5 different lens mounts though with a minimum wide angle ASP-C R mount lens.

For #2, it is all about pixel density. Yes, the R5 is expensive and a crop has less mp than the current 7Dii. A 80mp R5s will be more expensive then R5 but with the same crop density as 90D/M6ii but out of alignment with the 7D pricing. The R6 meets the 7D parameters except for pixel density.

Perhaps dropping in a model slightly under the R6 with a APS-C sensor similar in pixel density would appeal to the 7Dii replacement market. Would 7D users be happy if Canon reused the 90D/M6ii sensor into a R6 body (dual slots/weather sealing) with the same specs with sub-R6 cost. I guess it would be similar to 5Div/R body comparisons. A wide angle APS-C lens would not be required with this option

Then again, Canon may consider that the 7D replacement market is too small to warrant a new sensor. Only they would know. That said, Canon have no issue with astro versions eg Ra. From an engineering perspective that is only removing the filter rather than developing a new sensor though
 

HMC11

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And a huge hole too. :) Sorry, couldn't help myself.

Of course they could fill it by just keeping the R in the lineup, as it's still a great camera. I do agree that eventually they may slot something between the entry level body/bodies and the R6, but I don't see them in any hurry as the current R fills the need pretty well. The problem, as I see it, is that the R is equal to or better than the R6 in some respects (most notably the 30mp sensor) and the features that would need to be shed for a replacement to fit in under the R6 are already not on the R (IBIS and dual card slot) so I'm not sure what a new model would have/not have that isn't already met by the R.
If I recall correctly, Canon seemed to have indicated that there were to be 2 bodies below the R6. Given that this $799 would be one, then the other would be a sort of R replacement. My speculation would be that this would have the R5/6 AF system, kept at 30mp, and priced around $1700-1800. When this is introduced, it will leave some time for the remaining stock of R6 to be cleared off before a R6 Mark II (stacked sensor? higher fps? more video features? 30-36mp?) surfaces. If this becomes a reality, then the line-up of RF cameras would achieve better coherence in terms of their relative positionings, resolving buying conflicts/considerations between the current R & R6.
 

Mr Majestyk

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That will go well paired with the bargain basement RF glass on offer.

As for a cheap FF rendering APS-C redundant, in your dreams. You honestly think someone that would buy say a high perforamnce APS-C camera like a 7DII would accept a lowly crippled FF as their new mirrorless replacement tool for action. I guess they just need to pony up huge dollars for R3 and R1.
 

neuroanatomist

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My guess is that they would come out at the exact same time.
I have no idea if that time is very soon, far out, or never.
Sorry if I was unclear. This rumor is an $800 FF MILC. The implied claim was that this camera and the M line could not coexist for long.

I am suggesting that until aFF MILC and a FF kit lens (variable/slow 28-85, 24-105, etc.) included with it together cost around $800, it’s not a replacement for the M line (and even then, it’s going to be a physically bigger system so still not a replacement).

I don’t believe an $800 FF camera will come with a free lens (not sure that’s what your suggesting).
 

sanj

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I know there are a small handful of users that will still argue the benefit of a crop sensor, but if you have a full frame camera coming in at under $1000, I think those hoping for an RF mount APS-C camera are SOL.
People who seek a crop sensor do so not just for the body but for a system. A lighter body with lighter (cheaper) lenses is what they seek.
 

sanj

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And what doesn’t the M system already do for those people?

Nobody answers the logical questions, they just say the same things over and over.
I do not know about the M system at all Private. In anycase, my comment stays logical. My statement is a broad one. Btw if the M system exists, does that mean the crop crowd does not deserve a new system?
 

Skux

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- Canon A-2
- Full frame mirrorless retro-styled camera inspired by the Canon A and F series film SLRs
- Entry level EOS RP specs but with a higher resolution viewfinder and better dynamic range
- Manual top deck dials for shutter speed, ISO and exposure compensation
- Launching with a trio of affordable retro styled prime lenses with manual aperture rings and full-time manual focus: 50mm f1.8, 28mm f2.8, 100mm f2.8
- Available in piano black or chrome with multiple leatherette colour options
- Launching at $800 for the body or $1000 with 50mm

One can dream! :ROFLMAO:
 
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privatebydesign

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I do not know about the M system at all Private. In anycase, my comment stays logical. My statement is a broad one. Btw if the M system exists, does that mean the crop crowd does not deserve a new system?
And that is a large part of the problem with threads here, why anthropomorphize corporate decision making, what does ‘deserve’ have to do with anything?

I laid out logical scenarios of and answers to the most often stated reasons why Canon should make an RF crop camera.

1/ Size, weight and cost. The M addresses all of them, that is why it is the best selling MILC system on the planet.
2/ Focal length limited shooting because of financial or size limitations. The RF 800mm f11 addresses that.

Given those basic facts I don’t see why people think it makes sense for Canon to make yet another model of camera for the very small number of people that think an R7 crop camera would replace their ancient 7D II’s.

I don’t care if they do or don’t, I’d just like somebody to present a logical reason why Canon would. What camera buying situation is there for a crop RF camera that isn’t satisfied by the M and RF 800?
 
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mdcmdcmdc

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Easily and fully without EVF. I've been hammering that for years. This is what I want and need to bring me back to RF. I like the size of the RP but I still think it's unnecessarily big, particularly due to the EVF which I rarely used. Why use a .75" screen when you can use a 3.5"+ screen? EVFs are throwbacks to the 1950s to make old school photographers comfortable enough to swtich to mirrorless. If mankind forgot what cameras were and had to design them from scratch today, we'd have no need for EVFs. Sure they can be helpful in bright sun, but that's usually cause our screens suck. Make better screens, iPhone grade.
Obviously you don’t try to follow moving subjects with long telephotos.

But since you don’t have a need for it, then the entire industry can get rid of it.
 
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David - Sydney

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That will go well paired with the bargain basement RF glass on offer.

As for a cheap FF rendering APS-C redundant, in your dreams. You honestly think someone that would buy say a high perforamnce APS-C camera like a 7DII would accept a lowly crippled FF as their new mirrorless replacement tool for action. I guess they just need to pony up huge dollars for R3 and R1.
2 different camps for APS-C and I think that you are mixing them up. Rebel style APS-C (cheap/small) and 7Dii (much more expensive, dual card, AF, fps). These marketing segments are completely separated by Canon already (see my post above yours). It seems like you want a R6 body with higher pixel density like reusing the 90D/M6ii sensor. Don't expect a new sensor though with R6 AF/fps performance though. You would be a small subset of potential R6 buyers.
 

David - Sydney

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Given those basic facts I don’t see why people think it makes sense for Canon to make yet another model of camera for the very small number of people that think an R7 crop camera would replace their ancient 7D II’s.

I don’t care if they do or don’t, I’d just like somebody to present a logical reason why Canon would. What camera buying situation is there for a crop RF camera that isn’t satisfied by the M and RF 800?
I agree with your premise but you can't use the RF800 with the M series. If you mean M series for cheap/small (or M + EF white lenses for reach) OR any of the R bodies + RF800mm then I concur.

Cheap reach is the reason that 7D users will claim with pixel density being the primary one. 7D users will complain that the M6ii/90D with adapted long white lenses is not useful because it doesn't have dual card/weather sealed but it does achieve the required reach parameter.

Using 7Dii + medium whites (70-200/2.8, 300/4, 400/5.6 etc) with TCs gives dual card/AF/fps with pixel density to avoid paying huge sums for big whites.

R5 price is too much for a 7Dii replacement with the 17mp crop being "vastly" insufficient cf 20mp in 7Dii and we can't use TCs with RF70-200mm/2.8 or limited range with RF100-500mm.
They yearn for the 90D/M6ii sensor but in a R mount body at a R6 price (or lower). The unanswerable question is how big is the market for Canon?

I used to have a 7D but I am happy to be corrected by the 7Dii user base for their needs :)
 

mdcmdcmdc

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The real question is, for how many others. You don’t know. I don’t know. Canon does know. The update frequency of the 7-series is probably a fair indication of how important that market segment is to Canon…not very.
Agree completely. That’s free market economics. While a market space (or “niche”) like APS-C might be too small for a big player like Canon, other companies like Sony and Fuji might find it worth their investment.

I’m one of those people who prefer APS-C, and I came to the conclusion stated in your last sentence about six months ago. After owning exclusively Canon SLRs for 40 years, I’m enjoying my new a6400 tremendously. And the adapted EF lenses work great.
 

drhuffman87

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Here is the obvious solution to the 7D problem. Wait until 2024 and the R6 will drop to $1700. Now you have an affordable camera with 12fps mechanical with a 1DX III sensor with 2 card slots. Buy that and a RF 800 f11.
 
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