Canon EOS 5D Mark IV to be 30mp? [CR1]

[LoneRider]

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For the MP obsessed on a budget, I still think you will see the 6Dii hop past the 5Div, but without DPAF. It will be the D610-D750 competitor with ~36MP at 4-5FPS. With the 5DSii having, of course, north of 55-60MP.
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I cannot see that happening (6DII having more MP than the 5DIV.) This is the other reason that the 5DIV needs more: to allow the 6DII to jump up over the D750.

By this logic Canon completely destroyed the 1DXii marketability by having less than 60MP, how could the 1DXii have less MP than the 5DS??

If the 1DXii can have less than the 5Div, then so can the 5Div have less than the 6Dii.

Your assuming Canon has to follow Nikon's marketing strategy, and I believe that is a false assumption. Higher FPS, DPAF, silent shutter, and much better AF will be enough differentiation to justify for many the addition $1200-$1500 for the 5Div over the 6Dii.

 

[ahsanford]

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The purist in me would say 'give the prosumers the pixel count, I'll take the pixel quality', and especially recognizing that the 5D4 has the 5DS sitting alongside it, I could see the 5D4 staying low in pixel count and trying to crush everything else metrics-wise while the 6D2 gets a nice res boost to justify long-time APS-C shooters to make the FF plunge or to get 6D1 users to upgrade. In that light, I could see a 6D2 outresolve a 5D4.
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Nikon have tried this (low MP count with no video) on the Df - say no more.

16 MP x 5.5 fps is not exactly a winning value proposition, and that rig had the ergonomic sensibilities of a pregnant yak. The grip was smaller than a Rebel and the top LCD was laughable.

Video = I hear you. Must have. That's that. But don't indict the lower MP rig based on that collector's item / style piece sort of a side project.

I'm highly confident a (say) 24 MP 5D4 that gives you something demonstrably better by not chasing the pixel count (i.e. much better high ISO, higher fps, etc.) would sell very well.

- A

 

[Wesley]

One way to look at it is that either the 5DIV price needs to be lower (to move it into D750 space) or it needs way more MP than 28 to justify its price next to the D810/A7RII.

5D4 is not in the same class as the D750, it would have to downgrade if you want a lower, matched price. Imagine a 5D and 6D hybrid to be a D750.

It's also no longer the D810/A7RII competitor since the 5DS arrived.

 

[Wesley]

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The purist in me would say 'give the prosumers the pixel count, I'll take the pixel quality', and especially recognizing that the 5D4 has the 5DS sitting alongside it, I could see the 5D4 staying low in pixel count and trying to crush everything else metrics-wise while the 6D2 gets a nice res boost to justify long-time APS-C shooters to make the FF plunge or to get 6D1 users to upgrade. In that light, I could see a 6D2 outresolve a 5D4.
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Nikon have tried this (low MP count with no video) on the Df - say no more.

The DF was a niche camera, throwback to the photo purist. Probably not that purist as ahsanford was thinking of for the 5D4.

 

[ahsanford]

One way to look at it is that either the 5DIV price needs to be lower (to move it into D750 space) or it needs way more MP than 28 to justify its price next to the D810/A7RII.

5D4 is not in the same class as the D750, it would have to downgrade if you want a lower, matched price. Imagine a 5D and 6D hybrid to be a D750.

Sure, but I'm curious to see how the next model, a D760 (or whatever they call it), chooses to remain a value-oriented mongrel of the D610 and D810 (a blend of top end and starter-level features) or if it will move upmarket into a 'the great all-arounder' to go head to head with the 5D4.

- A

 

[Wesley]

Close match, internally spec wise. Better and worse, here and there but that's to be expected since it came out 2 yrs after 5D3.

However the body is D610 level. I don't expect a D760 to have a body change up to D810 class.
Rather see a true D700 successor (D700s/D710) to appear against 5D4.

I also don't expect D820 to have higher MP than 5DS because Sony A99II rumor is 42MP and Nikon has been using Sony sensors.

 

[ahsanford]

I also don't expect D820 to have higher MP than 5DS because Sony A99II rumor is 42MP and Nikon has been using Sony sensors.

We've been waiting for the A7R II sensor to show up in a Nikon for a year now. Given this lag, one might argue that Nikon might be going their own way with the D820 (or possibly are waiting for an even better Sony sensor).

- A

 

[kaihp]

The 5D4's chipset is allegedly good for 240mp/s, so 30mp @ 8 fps is really very feasible from a CPU throughput point of view.

GMC, do you have some sauce on this? - I haven't seen this number before, and extrapolations from the 1DX/5D3 ratio to 1DX2 levels says ~175MP/s.

 

[Wesley]

I also don't expect D820 to have higher MP than 5DS because Sony A99II rumor is 42MP and Nikon has been using Sony sensors.

We've been waiting for the A7R II sensor to show up in a Nikon for a year now. Given this lag, one might argue that Nikon might be going their own way with the D820 (or possibly are waiting for an even better Sony sensor).

- A

Never seen a 1yr refresh for an high level Nikon DSLR.
It was nearly 2.5 years from the D800 to D810. Now it's been 2yrs exactly since D810 came out.

Close match, internally spec wise. Better and worse, here and there but that's to be expected since it came out 2 yrs after 5D3.

However the body is D610 level. I don't expect a D760 to have a body change up to D810 class.
Rather see a true D700 successor (D700s/D710) to appear against 5D4.

I also don't expect D820 to have higher MP than 5DS because Sony A99II rumor is 42MP and Nikon has been using Sony sensors.

It may be that the 42MP sensor remains a Sony only part as it has not appeared on the inventory of parts that Sony sells (unlike the 36MP sensor used by Nikon and Pentax.)

Note also that the Pentax K1 is 36MP (same sensor as D810) and is only $1800 (however it only does 4.5fps and 1080p.) So clearly the 36MP sensor from Sony can support a cheaper FF DLSR (such as a D760.)

Hopefully the newer D700 series doesn't have 36MP ;D
Raw file size jumps from on average D750 27~ MB to D810 43~ MB
Eats up my HDD space faster and hard drive storage workflow sucks.
Disclaimer: I'm a Nikon & Sony user. Eyeing the 5D4 because I like the 24-70II and 1DXII sensor pretty good now.

 

[Wesley]

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Hopefully the newer D700 series doesn't have 36MP ;D
Raw file size jumps from on average D750 27~ MB to D810 43~ MB
Eats up my HDD space faster and hard drive storage workflow sucks.
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Get a newer, bigger hard drive or just delete more of the crap images

Multiple hard drives (two RAID enclosures that get swapped) if you have a backup workflow.
Preview cache creation and loading takes longer as well.

I would be dandy if the 5D4 was kept around 24MP.

 

[noms78]

I don't understand people who complain about file sizes

PC components can be upgraded anytime and are constantly getting cheaper but DSLR bodies are only released once every few years so when they are released they need to be future proof for the release period.

 

[Wesley]

I don't understand people who complain about file sizes

PC components can be upgraded anytime and are constantly getting cheaper but DSLR bodies are only released once every few years so when they are released they need to be future proof for the release period.

So...what is your camera, computer, software, and storage setup? ???

I just don't think the advancement of components and lowering price rate is on par with the megapixels going up.

 

[pedro]

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I would be dandy if the 5D4 was kept around 24MP.

So would I. My stolen 5DIII was great but the 6D I have now does the job I need it for, mostly lowlight, nightscapes. Wouldn't mind to see a 24 MP 6DII though, with all the new sensor tech built in and maybe some extras like anti-shake mode 8) Otherwise, I could also imagine to pick up an a7sII once its next itiration hits the shelves. Just for astro along with the 6D as an excellent allround low lighter and also pick up a copy of TBA AF E-mount Samyangs 50 1.4, 14 2.8 or even the Laowa 12 2.8 (if there is an e-mount version available) which was reviewed by Keith recently.

 

[slclick]

cr1

 

[IglooEater]

I don't understand people who complain about file sizes

PC components can be upgraded anytime and are constantly getting cheaper but DSLR bodies are only released once every few years so when they are released they need to be future proof for the release period.

So...what is your camera, computer, software, and storage setup? ???

I just don't think the advancement of components and lowering price rate is on par with the megapixels going up.

I think the advancement of computer components and lowering price rate is going much faster than 34% MP increase in 4 years. (22.3mp 5d III to 30mp 5d IV)

 

[mb66energy]

I don't understand people who complain about file sizes

PC components can be upgraded anytime and are constantly getting cheaper but DSLR bodies are only released once every few years so when they are released they need to be future proof for the release period.

So...what is your camera, computer, software, and storage setup? ???

I just don't think the advancement of components and lowering price rate is on par with the megapixels going up.

I think the advancement of computer components and lowering price rate is going much faster than 34% MP increase in 4 years. (22.3mp 5d III to 30mp 5d IV)

That's true, for shure.

But sensor read out has its analog electronics subsystems and these are more dominated by physics than tech development. The capacity of a 5um sensor photosite has it's capacity and if you need to transfer charge you have currents which are limited by resistance etc.

I think it drives a lot of people in the development departments nuts to optimize between these 10, 20 or 100 boundary conditions!

 

[Lenscracker]

I am just amazed that the 5D4 is supposed to get the official announcement in August and the only information leaked is that it may have a 30mp sensor. How can they keep a secret that well? It seems like somebody would have hacked their computers for info by now.

 

[ahsanford]

I am just amazed that the 5D4 is supposed to get the official announcement in August and the only information leaked is that it may have a 30mp sensor. How can they keep a secret that well? It seems like somebody would have hacked their computers for info by now.

Someone needs to allege there are national security secrets on Canon corporate computers and the information will promptly surface.

I am amazed how tightly Canon keeps things in-house until the last week. A huge piece of this is that they build their own cameras/lenses in their own factories. But one also wonders how nasty their NDA violation terms are (for outside evaluators) and how many false-flag / deliberate dissemination of false information is going on (internal to Canon and its sales force).

It's not Apple-like, I'm sure, but it can't be terribly far off from that given how tightly things have been kept secret the last few years.

- A

 

[IglooEater]

I don't understand people who complain about file sizes

PC components can be upgraded anytime and are constantly getting cheaper but DSLR bodies are only released once every few years so when they are released they need to be future proof for the release period.

So...what is your camera, computer, software, and storage setup? ???

I just don't think the advancement of components and lowering price rate is on par with the megapixels going up.

I think the advancement of computer components and lowering price rate is going much faster than 34% MP increase in 4 years. (22.3mp 5d III to 30mp 5d IV)

That's true, for shure.

But sensor read out has its analog electronics subsystems and these are more dominated by physics than tech development. The capacity of a 5um sensor photosite has it's capacity and if you need to transfer charge you have currents which are limited by resistance etc.

I think it drives a lot of people in the development departments nuts to optimize between these 10, 20 or 100 boundary conditions!

Righteeo.. You're speaking a bit above my head, but I'm sure you're right. But from my understanding, Wesley was talking about the computer side of things, not so much the sensor.

 

[mb66energy]

I don't understand people who complain about file sizes

PC components can be upgraded anytime and are constantly getting cheaper but DSLR bodies are only released once every few years so when they are released they need to be future proof for the release period.

So...what is your camera, computer, software, and storage setup? ???

I just don't think the advancement of components and lowering price rate is on par with the megapixels going up.

I think the advancement of computer components and lowering price rate is going much faster than 34% MP increase in 4 years. (22.3mp 5d III to 30mp 5d IV)

That's true, for shure.

But sensor read out has its analog electronics subsystems and these are more dominated by physics than tech development. The capacity of a 5um sensor photosite has it's capacity and if you need to transfer charge you have currents which are limited by resistance etc.

I think it drives a lot of people in the development departments nuts to optimize between these 10, 20 or 100 boundary conditions!

Righteeo.. You're speaking a bit above my head, but I'm sure you're right. But from my understanding, Wesley was talking about the computer side of things, not so much the sensor.

You are right: It was about post processing and not about the computer performance in the camera ...

About these analog limitations: If you want to transfer an amount of charge (= a bunch of electrons) you create currents. If you like to do that very fast, you have a large current for a short time. Within the sensor design you have only limited max currents. And the signal is "smeared" so it is not a peak but a sth. like a wave.
Think about transferring water through a pipe: If you want to transfer the water faster (=higher flow rate) you need larger pipes or a higher speed of the water (=higher pressure). The speed of charge transfer is limited by ~65% of the speed of light, you can build thicker connections between photo sites and ADCs but this again is limited by the sensor size/available space on the sensor. If you turn on and off the valve you will see a smeared "pulse" at the end of the hose. This limits how fast the signal is transferred through cables (electricity) or water hoses ...