Canon EOS 7D Mark III Coming First Half of 2018 [CR2]

[Loswr]

i am not sure what i can provide to back up what i say besides look into my old posts?

Yep, some good back up there.

Nikon has a D810 successor coming this year...and Canon knows it.

CR you're wrong about the date..

The 200-600mm will be announced along with the 7Dmark3 in 2017. it will be STM, look like a longer version of the 55-250 stm. All plastic with a metal mount but weight will be close to the Tamron. it is the same one in the Patent the was filed years back. Hoya is providing the elements least the front element, they already have the contract. The tripod collar is an extra but will ship with lens hood. it will lock for lens creep at 200mm and 400mm. focus down to 6 feet. won't be at the sharpest at wide open. $1,600 or close to.

7d3 is coming around February of 2017 last i heard this week. they're doing final testing on the heat displacement and battery drain for 4k use, just getting the algorithms down in the firmware. 8)

 

[Mikehit]

I'd disagree with that. I live in a very popular birding area and there is no doubt the D500 200-500mm combo is hurting the 7D MkII 100-400 MkII combo, further, the people who do this as a hobby, as I see them, are not interested in secondhand anything, they want the latest and greatest and a secondhand 18mp 1DX or even older and less capable 1D MkIV are not options.

At this point the saving grace for Canon in this area is the 400 DO MkII and it's performance with TC's, I am amazed at the number of them I see every time I go out.

But are those Nikon people who suddenly have a Nikon that does the job they want, or are they people who switched from Canon to Nikon? Or people who wanted to progress from iphone/compact and deliberately chose Nikon to Canon? The first of those does not hurt Canon one jot.
My one anecdote is that I recently went to one of the best mainland sites in UK to photograph gannets and the 7D2/100-400ii was by far the most common pairing I saw over 2 days.

 

[privatebydesign]

I'd disagree with that. I live in a very popular birding area and there is no doubt the D500 200-500mm combo is hurting the 7D MkII 100-400 MkII combo, further, the people who do this as a hobby, as I see them, are not interested in secondhand anything, they want the latest and greatest and a secondhand 18mp 1DX or even older and less capable 1D MkIV are not options.

At this point the saving grace for Canon in this area is the 400 DO MkII and it's performance with TC's, I am amazed at the number of them I see every time I go out.

But are those Nikon people who suddenly have a Nikon that does the job they want, or are they people who switched from Canon to Nikon? Or people who wanted to progress from iphone/compact and deliberately chose Nikon to Canon? The first of those does not hurt Canon one jot.
My one anecdote is that I recently went to one of the best mainland sites in UK to photograph gannets and the 7D2/100-400ii was by far the most common pairing I saw over 2 days.

I don't know, and truthfully I don't care, but I used to see only white, the Canon 400mm f5.6, now I see a lot of Nikon with the 200-500 and Tamron/Sigma 150-600's. There is no doubt in my mind Canon desperately need to come up with something long and not over $3,000 if they want to keep dominating sales in this market.

I do have another interesting observation, I have just got back from a few weeks in the Hawaiian islands and saw a very broad array of gear on display, mostly other tourists from across the globe. I'd say the Rebel was without doubt the most popular DSLR out there though of course they are dwarfed by people just using their phones for pictures. I only saw one photo tour with about 10 participants, it was a USA group and they all had the RRS tripods and ballheads, so they were CR type enthusiast level people, every one of them was using mirrorless except the instructor/leader.

What does this mean? Nothing, my sample groups are too small to be of any value, I live in a small town and just got 2 1DX MkII's, after playing with one of mine another local pro got one, I got mine after borrowing a friends who also lives here and is a keen enthusiast. So in a town of 20,000 people I know of four 1DX MkII's which is probably an anomaly too.

 

[LonelyBoy]

If it was released yesterday, it would have been too late IMO. While I doubt that many have jumped ship to Nikon for the more appealing D500, I do think that Canon has lost some business here. Potential 7D III buyers can get second-hand 1D X or even 1D mark IV cameras at low prices these days and Canon won't gain a thing on those second-hand (re)sales. Flagship users may endure that longer-than-usual product cycles, as there is nowhere to step up to in the Canon line-up for them, but almost all other users have many alternatives in the line-up. By so long cycles, Canon is loosing income even if most users will stay true to the brand.

Is Canon's main goal to sell lots of new bodies to those people? Or is Canon's main goal to keep people using Canon bodies so they buy Canon glass to go with their second-hand 1D bodies? And remember, strong second-hand prices are a good selling point for new equipment as well.

 

[LonelyBoy]

Now, here's a question.

What if Canon were to do two versions of the 7D Mark III, one with a 24 megapixel sensor using their current 3.7µm CMOS tech, and a 7D Mark IIIS for high sensitivity with a 12mpx sensor using the same 5.7µm pixel CMOS as on the 5D Mark IV sensor.

Assuming all else is equal, what would you prefer?

The market answer: How does the A7S II sell vs. the A7R II amongst stills-only shooters?

My personal answer: People make great statements here about keeping resolution low for a host of IQ reasons, but it's been my observation that few folks deliberately give up resolution once they've gotten used to it. So if you told the people on this forum the 7D3 (whatever you want to call it) has only 12 MP to maximize IQ, everyone would hang on to their 7D2s or give the D500 a much deeper look. I'd guess many would expect that cameras shouldn't deliver less detail as time marches forward.

However, In your two-tiered position above, virtually everyone would take the resolution unless there was a dramatic 'something else' at play -- 3x the buffer if you kept the pixel count down, integrated astro features, higher yet fps levels, etc.

- A

When I shot my Nikon D40 way (way) back in the day I thought 6mpx was fine and the 10mpx D40X was silly and frivolous. Now I routinely wish for more resolution on my 5D3 and hope to upgrade it to a 5D4 before the wifey's race in Kona.

 

[RickWagoner]

i am not sure what i can provide to back up what i say besides look into my old posts? I have seen the 7d3 in action last year when a few of us where testing some rubber seals on it, though our test versions are not complete production run machines they are usually close to what becomes the production version.

Excuse me -- you are a tester/supplier/partner with Canon on the 7D3 and you are free to talk about the product openly, sans NDA?

No disrespect, but you could imagine some skepticism on our part for such a claim.

- A

my NDA is gone as i am personally long gone but i still know people in. I won't talk what exact i know today to save their butts...this info is long ago old.

 

[RickWagoner]

i am not sure what i can provide to back up what i say besides look into my old posts?

Yep, some good back up there.

Nikon has a D810 successor coming this year...and Canon knows it.

CR you're wrong about the date..

The 200-600mm will be announced along with the 7Dmark3 in 2017. it will be STM, look like a longer version of the 55-250 stm. All plastic with a metal mount but weight will be close to the Tamron. it is the same one in the Patent the was filed years back. Hoya is providing the elements least the front element, they already have the contract. The tripod collar is an extra but will ship with lens hood. it will lock for lens creep at 200mm and 400mm. focus down to 6 feet. won't be at the sharpest at wide open. $1,600 or close to.

7d3 is coming around February of 2017 last i heard this week. they're doing final testing on the heat displacement and battery drain for 4k use, just getting the algorithms down in the firmware. 8)

I am wondering if Canon is waiting on 7d3 for the long zoom lens?

 

[jolyonralph]

How are they going to do an affordable xxx-600mm lens when they won't do anything slower than f/5.6?

 

[Orangutan]

How are they going to do an affordable xxx-600mm lens when they won't do anything slower than f/5.6?

He's never been right so far, I wouldn't take anything he says very seriously.

 

[goldenhusky]

I am wondering if Canon is waiting on 7d3 for the long zoom lens?

RickWagoner u seems to be interesting. Until now I was saying this rumor was 100% BS but now I am thinking may be true.

 

[Don Haines]

How are they going to do an affordable xxx-600mm lens when they won't do anything slower than f/5.6?

He's never been right so far, I wouldn't take anything he says very seriously.

If Canon is going to come out with a long lens to compete with the raft of 150-600's and the Nikon 200-500, odds are, that it will be a zoom lens, and probably a 200-500 F5.6..... if it is an affordable prime, then it is probably an update of the 400F5.6 that will play well with teleconverters and give you a 560F8.....

And unlike Jolyonralph, I am not always wrong..... I once made a prediction that came true..... (all the others have been wrong)

 

[ahsanford]

How are they going to do an affordable xxx-600mm lens when they won't do anything slower than f/5.6?

Short answer: Expensively.

But that doesn't mean they won't try. Right now, if you want to shoot longer than 400mm on a Canon FF camera with first-party AF routines, you have the choice of using a teleconverter or spending north of $9k. There needs to be a third option.

Nikon found a way. I'm not calling it a perfect instrument, but a $1400 200-500 f/5.6 VR is a comically good deal. Canon needs something to compete along those lines (though not necessarily spec'd / priced the same). Perhaps they only go to 500mm as I still don't see Tamron/Sigma as threats so much as cheaper 3rd party options. It's the Nikon lens that could actually flip users to their mount that I see as the much bigger threat, and that's what Canon needs to speak to.

- A

 

[Talys]

How are they going to do an affordable xxx-600mm lens when they won't do anything slower than f/5.6?

Short answer: Expensively.

But that doesn't mean they won't try. Right now, if you want to shoot longer than 400mm on a Canon FF camera with first-party AF routines, you have the choice of using a teleconverter or spending north of $9k. There needs to be a third option.

Nikon found a way. I'm not calling it a perfect instrument, but a $1400 200-500 f/5.6 VR is a comically good deal. Canon needs something to compete along those lines (though not necessarily spec'd / priced the same). Perhaps they only go to 500mm as I still don't see Tamron/Sigma as threats so much as cheaper 3rd party options. It's the Nikon lens that could actually flip users to their mount that I see as the much bigger threat, and that's what Canon needs to speak to.

- A

I totally agree that the lens could actually flip users to their mount -- IMO much more so than the D500 (at least, for stills). If it weren't for the Sigma, I would probably have been tempted to buy a Nikon body + 200-500 at some point.

I'd be perfectly happy with a 200-500/5.6 from Canon. I'm not unhappy with my Sigma 150-600, but I would give up some of the FR and the top end zoom for a fixed 5.6. I really dislike 6.3, especially for AF. If Canon could produce a 200-500 f/5 that wasn't too much heavier, that would be even better, because I am greedy.

 

[M_S]

Re: Canon EOS 7D Mark II Coming First Half of 2018 [CR2]

7D Mark II in the first part of next year sets up the 120MP 5DsR Mark II for photokina

Lets say it this way: 120MP 5dsr II would pose a huge problem and, at least with my skills, would pose a serious problem. Usable aperture is already limited to 7.1-11 because of diffraction and shutter speeds are doubled on the 5dsr to get a sharp picture. Going higher with the MPs would certainly worsen that.
I would leave it at 50 mps and better all the rest, then the 5dsr2 will be an excellent camera. And they should kick Adobe for not making a medium contrast curve a standard for that camera! Almost made me not buy that camera.

 

[Mikehit]

Re: Canon EOS 7D Mark II Coming First Half of 2018 [CR2]

7D Mark II in the first part of next year sets up the 120MP 5DsR Mark II for photokina

Lets say it this way: 120MP 5dsr II would pose a huge problem and, at least with my skills, would pose a serious problem. Usable aperture is already limited to 7.1-11 because of diffraction and shutter speeds are doubled on the 5dsr to get a sharp picture. Going higher with the MPs would certainly worsen that.
I would leave it at 50 mps and better all the rest, then the 5dsr2 will be an excellent camera. And they should kick Adobe for not making a medium contrast curve a standard for that camera! Almost made me not buy that camera.

If the increase megapixels changes the diffraction limit, then of greater concern is camerashake.
IIRC, digital matched slide film for resolution at 6MP and it was in the days of film that they came up with the 1/focal length 'rule' for hand held shutter speed. So are you saying that with the 5DSR you have to use 1/3xFL ?

 

[Khalai]

Re: Canon EOS 7D Mark II Coming First Half of 2018 [CR2]

7D Mark II in the first part of next year sets up the 120MP 5DsR Mark II for photokina

Lets say it this way: 120MP 5dsr II would pose a huge problem and, at least with my skills, would pose a serious problem. Usable aperture is already limited to 7.1-11 because of diffraction and shutter speeds are doubled on the 5dsr to get a sharp picture. Going higher with the MPs would certainly worsen that.
I would leave it at 50 mps and better all the rest, then the 5dsr2 will be an excellent camera. And they should kick Adobe for not making a medium contrast curve a standard for that camera! Almost made me not buy that camera.

If the increase megapixels changes the diffraction limit, then of greater concern is camerashake.
IIRC, digital matched slide film for resolution at 6MP and it was in the days of film that they came up with the 1/focal length 'rule' for hand held shutter speed. So are you saying that with the 5DSR you have to use 1/3xFL ?

IHMO that 120 MPix is simply overkill. I've always considered FF sweet spot in 24-32 MPix region. After all with 34 MPix, you can print up to 16x24" in 300 dpi (4800 x7200 px). It's still not too many megapickles to be worried about diffraction (to a certain degree), you don't usually have to resort to higher SS to prevent motion blur and the file size is nothing scary about storage and editing.

Who want to store 120 MPix files anyway? Five CR2 files, which take up 1 GB of space? DLA around f/4? I think that impracticality of such sensor outweights about any potential advantage the increased resolution might bring.

 

[M_S]

Re: Canon EOS 7D Mark II Coming First Half of 2018 [CR2]

7D Mark II in the first part of next year sets up the 120MP 5DsR Mark II for photokina

Lets say it this way: 120MP 5dsr II would pose a huge problem and, at least with my skills, would pose a serious problem. Usable aperture is already limited to 7.1-11 because of diffraction and shutter speeds are doubled on the 5dsr to get a sharp picture. Going higher with the MPs would certainly worsen that.
I would leave it at 50 mps and better all the rest, then the 5dsr2 will be an excellent camera. And they should kick Adobe for not making a medium contrast curve a standard for that camera! Almost made me not buy that camera.

If the increase megapixels changes the diffraction limit, then of greater concern is camerashake.
IIRC, digital matched slide film for resolution at 6MP and it was in the days of film that they came up with the 1/focal length 'rule' for hand held shutter speed. So are you saying that with the 5DSR you have to use 1/3xFL ?

When not using IS, 1/focal length rule doesn't apply to 5dsr, at least not to my findings. I normally use 1/(2*focal length) for shutter speeds just to be on the safe side and eliminate visible effects of shaking caused by hand holding the camera. Sometimes even 1/(3*focal length). That means of course to adjust the ISO to higher values, which is limited on this camera. More MP would certainly effect that even further. Unless they come up with some usable IS in the camera or other HighTec features, I would not use that camera for normal stuff then. Not to speak of usable DLA, which I find more limiting in the end.

 

[Mikehit]

Re: Canon EOS 7D Mark II Coming First Half of 2018 [CR2]

When not using IS, 1/focal length rule doesn't apply to 5dsr, at least not to my findings. I normally use 1/(2*focal length) for shutter speeds just to be on the safe side and eliminate visible effects of shaking caused by hand holding the camera. Sometimes even 1/(3*focal length). That means of course to adjust the ISO to higher values, which is limited on this camera. More MP would certainly effect that even further. Unless they come up with some usable IS in the camera or other HighTec features, I would not use that camera for normal stuff then. Not to speak of usable DLA, which I find more limiting in the end.

Thankyou.
You said earlier that

Usable aperture is already limited to 7.1-11 because of diffraction

Can you show me an example where a higher MP sensor has given lower resolution at f11/f16 than a lower MP sensor. In my experience, despite all the theoretical talk about diffraction, the detail from more MP overrides the diffraction.
As I see it, 'Diffraction Limiting' means that diffraction reduces the benefits of narrower aperture, it does not mean a narrower aperture makes the image worse.

 

[Khalai]

Re: Canon EOS 7D Mark II Coming First Half of 2018 [CR2]

When not using IS, 1/focal length rule doesn't apply to 5dsr, at least not to my findings. I normally use 1/(2*focal length) for shutter speeds just to be on the safe side and eliminate visible effects of shaking caused by hand holding the camera. Sometimes even 1/(3*focal length). That means of course to adjust the ISO to higher values, which is limited on this camera. More MP would certainly effect that even further. Unless they come up with some usable IS in the camera or other HighTec features, I would not use that camera for normal stuff then. Not to speak of usable DLA, which I find more limiting in the end.

Thankyou.
You said earlier that

Usable aperture is already limited to 7.1-11 because of diffraction

Can you show me an example where a higher MP sensor has given lower resolution at f11/f16 than a lower MP sensor. In my experience, despite all the theoretical talk about diffraction, the detail from more MP overrides the diffraction.
As I see it, 'Diffraction Limiting' means that diffraction reduces the benefits of narrower aperture, it does not mean a narrower aperture makes the image worse.

I've seen images at f/22, which appeared quite soft in comparison with f/11. So DLA is not theoretical, you can search for that all over the web. Medium apertures such as f/8-f/11 should not pose a problem as of now, but try f/16 (barely, but still acceptable) or even f/22-f/32. The latter will yield significantly softer and less sharp images.

If we increase MPix count to e.g. 100Mpix on FF, even apertures like f/16 can be barely usable. How about landscape or macro then?

 

[Mikehit]

Re: Canon EOS 7D Mark II Coming First Half of 2018 [CR2]

I've seen images at f/22, which appeared quite soft in comparison with f/11.

That's not what I am talking about and no-one i know doubts that diffraction occurs. I was referring to a low MP camera at f11/f16 vs a high MP camera at f11/f16.

M-S said he did not want a 150MP camera because even the 50DS has diffraction limit of f7.1 to f11. I was asking how a 150MP camera results in worse photographs at f11/f16.

I have not yet heard a landscape photographer say they would rather use the original 5D than the 5DIV, 5DS or 6D because their higher MP make diffraction worse. Or how about the Nikon D810 vs previous Nikon models.