Canon Executive Talks EOS M in 2016

[nhz]

Nikon, they filed for bankruptcy recently, they're in a money pinch I assume, and they've been using other people's fab's to produce their sensors (Toshiba, now Sony), probably is eating into profits since it's my understanding the CMOS represents 60% of a cameras raw material cost. Hence I haven't seen a Nikon 1 V updated for some time...

Nikon filed for bankruptcy, really?? They are downsizing and reorganizing a bit but their financials aren't bad. And outsourcing sensor production is VERY common nowadays, it's Canon who is using an outdated strategy here. An in-house sensor fab doesn't mean the cost is lower, unless the production lines are always running 24/7 (which is far more likely in the case of outsourcing production).

IMHO Canon DSLR tech stopped advancing after 2008, there are some bright spots after that like the better AF in 5D3/7D2 etc. but they are few. DR has hardly increased over all those years and real high ISO performance (using RAW files) hasn't increased much either; most of the 'extreme low light' gain is from in-camera processing and much of the improvements in lower models is just going through the parts bin from older models (maybe a bit more higher up). Real innovation has been almost zero but apparently they get away with that (partly because all DSLRs are now 'good enough' for the average buyer).

Bankruptcy, financial insolvency, reorg, whatever you call it, it's the need to restructure money or debt or business to keep things a float, it's also a bad sign no matter how you look at it.

And you think Canon is NOT reorganizing? All manufacturers are hurting from the steep decline in camera sales.

And regarding Canon strategy in general: lets hope for them that it isn't going to end just like with their lithography (stepper) business. 10-15 years or so ago they (and possibly Nikon as well) boasted how they were going to 'walk over that small Dutch startup' with their huge client base and marketing muscle. And look where we are now. Monopolies and arrogance usually don't end well.

 

[Loswr]

The innovation at e.g. Sony over the last years has been HUGE compared to Canon.

And the technological changes were certainly not 'incremental', there were significant new technologies introduced every year.

Right, just HUGE. What's the sound of one hand clapping? If a sensor has one stop better low ISO DR in the forest, does anyone hear it fall? Thanks to Sony innovation, iPhones take slightly better pictures now - that's the real impact.

On the up side of the issue, it's good that Sony's innovation has finally allowed them to catch up to Canon at high ISO, after several years of being behind.

 

[Loswr]

@ Neuro

If anybodies got a reason to gripe, it's you dude. 1DX owner + L glass = back breaking during personal time. Pro-M is definitely something I suspect that's up your alley. Surprised you haven't upgraded from the M2 to M3 yet... The AF in good lighting and ISO bump plus fine grain and rock solid metering makes a huge difference from the M2, I used to own it. The downgrade to 25mbit really stinks though on the M3.

I'm not opposed to smaller and lighter, as long as it delivers the performance I want. Hang an f/2.8 zoom lens from a FF MILC, it's not much smaller or lighter, and still sacrifices performance in many areas I want it. The kit weight really isn't a big deal.

When I'm going to sacrifice performance for size, I want smaller. The M2 is about as small as it gets, it meets my needs so no need for a larger M3. Also, I the dSLR menus to the PowerShot menus.

 

[Loswr]

Oh by the way, it's my understanding Canon is the only one doing Diffraction optics in camera lenses, and they're getting better at it rapidly from the looks of the latest DO lenses...

Nope, Nikon recently innovated copied Canon in DO (just after they innovated copied use of fluorite elements). Nikon calls it PF (phase fresnel), they use it only in a 300/4 (which was launched, then shipping stopped and they recalled existing lenses which had to be sent in for a firmware update, ugh).

I miss my EOS M2 in that regard, it is smaller, and the video is so much better, but I'll tell you the pro's of better ISO and finer grain, and much better metering and slightly better AF plus EVF option and some kind of grip, well outweigh those cons; if Canon doesn't release something at CP+, I can't recommend the upgrade enough, despite the slight gain in size. That said, the AF performance gain vs the M2 is non-existent in low light, but significant in well lit environments, heads up.

Thanks. I bought the M2 after my M died, a new M2 cost ~$20 more than Canon USA's 'prix fixe' cost to repair the M. I'll definitely keep the M3 in mind.

 

[crashpc]

The innovation at e.g. Sony over the last years has been HUGE compared to Canon.

And the technological changes were certainly not 'incremental', there were significant new technologies introduced every year.

Right, just HUGE. What's the sound of one hand clapping? If a sensor has one stop better low ISO DR in the forest, does anyone hear it fall? Thanks to Sony innovation, iPhones take slightly better pictures now - that's the real impact.

On the up side of the issue, it's good that Sony's innovation has finally allowed them to catch up to Canon at high ISO, after several years of being behind.

I know that few geeks(including me) here and there don´t make companies to turn, but hey, I already stopped Canon purchases untill/unless they do something with their sensors, and pathetic cameras with 5 RAW images bursts (don´t mean 5FPS, just 5 poor images). I believe this number of unhappy useres is slowly growing, and that´s not good trend. Even you didn´t buy into new camera model (M3) for some other reasons. All serious companies really do monitor this, and do their market research, evaluate and look onto customers perceptions of the company and product line, even employees perceptions about their own production. There is some momentum and more people screaming loud enaugh and long enaugh usually does change things. I believe Canon is not dead company going to fall, but They really know how to hold ones balls, and they are not delivering in a way to really please users of pro/enthusiasts gear.
Right now, I´m stacking/stashing some money for photographic gear, and if I got enaugh, I simply jump. Untill then, I go the healthy way, and live with it untill becomes very inferior in even more aspects. I would not describe this as company delivering so good products, so people want it, so the company grows. In my book, it´s decline. Hope they solve it.

 

[Loswr]

How'd you kill a EOS M? Damage? Didn't know they could wear one out since it's without a mirror?

It just up and died for no apparent reason, decided not to turn on. Probably a simple fix, but Canon will charge >$200 regardless of whether it's soldering one contact or replacing all the internals.

 

[nhz]

Nope, Nikon recently innovated copied Canon in DO (just after they innovated copied use of fluorite elements). Nikon calls it PF (phase fresnel), they use it only in a 300/4 (which was launched, then shipping stopped and they recalled existing lenses which had to be sent in for a firmware update, ugh).

You call it copying but optically Nikon is using a very different solution from what Canon is using; it isn't copying at all except that they are both using the same optical principle (just like Canon 'copied' using positive or negative or aspheric lens elements from other companies ...).

 

[Loswr]

Nope, Nikon recently innovated copied Canon in DO (just after they innovated copied use of fluorite elements). Nikon calls it PF (phase fresnel), they use it only in a 300/4 (which was launched, then shipping stopped and they recalled existing lenses which had to be sent in for a firmware update, ugh).

You call it copying but optically Nikon is using a very different solution from what Canon is using; it isn't copying at all except that they are both using the same optical principle (just like Canon 'copied' using positive or negative or aspheric lens elements from other companies ...).

Optically, Nikon's implementation is very similar to Canon's DO - similar enough that 'copy' is appropriate. There are technical differences, yes – Canon had patents that Nikon needed to work around. In fact, PF is most similar to the older Canon DO lenses, the 400/4 II uses an improved version of the optics. Thus, Nikon developed a software correction that partially (but not completely) addresses one of the artifacts created by the PF element.

The fluorite story is amusing – if you look in Nikon's lens glossary, their ED entry discusses how fluorite is bad because it's prone to cracking and thermally-induced focus changes. Clearly, that was written to bash Canon's use of fluorite elements, and now Nikon's FL glossary entry would have you believe fluorite is the best thing since sliced bread. Not that Nikon didn't know the advantages, they've used fluorite elements in microscope objectives for years.

 

[nhz]

Copy is appropriate, Android copied the design of the iPhone, despite all the denials, Apple came first, and coincidentally, Android shortly thereafter became highly similar. Nikon may not be using the same patented formula, but, the idea behind the patent, absolutely. Also I'm sure they borrowed heavily on the existing Canon patent as a template for their PF/DO formula/s.

nonsense! These technologies have been in use e.g. in microscopy for a long time, Canon didn't invent them at all. There is nothing special about the Canon implementation compared to pre-existing technology, the only novelty is that they were able to apply it to relatively big and high quality elements for an 'affordable' price. The construction of the Nikon PF element IS different technically, if you call this 'copying' you might as well discard all patent law because everything in technology would be 'copying'.

 

[hubie]

They still want us to wait NEARLY ANOTHER YEAR for a proper EOS M camera?
After telling us there'd be something good "soon" towards the end of last year?

They're ******** joking.

I think I'll end up getting the Fujifilm X-Pro 2 then.

Oh dude, chill. Waiting for a good camera is nothing too bad. And enjoy your 70D in the meantime. I mean, what is all the hack about? "Oh ******, I will have to wait a year for a new product that wasn't even announced officially yet!!!!"... choleric? ^^

 

[Loswr]

Copy is appropriate, Android copied the design of the iPhone, despite all the denials, Apple came first, and coincidentally, Android shortly thereafter became highly similar. Nikon may not be using the same patented formula, but, the idea behind the patent, absolutely. Also I'm sure they borrowed heavily on the existing Canon patent as a template for their PF/DO formula/s.

nonsense! These technologies have been in use e.g. in microscopy for a long time, Canon didn't invent them at all. There is nothing special about the Canon implementation compared to pre-existing technology, the only novelty is that they were able to apply it to relatively big and high quality elements for an 'affordable' price. The construction of the Nikon PF element IS different technically, if you call this 'copying' you might as well discard all patent law because everything in technology would be 'copying'.

But when Sony takes technologies used in other segments for years and applies them to relatively large image sensors, you claim their 'innovation is HUGE.' If Canon starts making BSI sensors, is that copying? Yes, even if the tech is sufficiently different to avoid patent infringement.

Bottom line - Canon used fluorite elements in their camera for years, Nikon copied recently. Canon used fresnel-based elements in their lenses for years, Nikon recently copied that, too. Nikon has used RGB metering sensors for years, Canon recently copied them. Then improved it by adding IR...but that's not innovative, right?

We get it, you want to claim Canon doesn't innovate by having your cake and eating it, too. :

 

[Fleetie]

They still want us to wait NEARLY ANOTHER YEAR for a proper EOS M camera?
After telling us there'd be something good "soon" towards the end of last year?

They're ******** joking.

I think I'll end up getting the Fujifilm X-Pro 2 then.

Oh dude, chill. Waiting for a good camera is nothing too bad. And enjoy your 70D in the meantime. I mean, what is all the hack about? "Oh ******, I will have to wait a year for a new product that wasn't even announced officially yet!!!!"... choleric? ^^

Where the bloody hell did you dream up the idea that I have a 70D?

Do you just invent reality as you see fit?

5D3, "Choleric Dude".

 

[rrcphoto]

As for 'real innovation', honestly there hasn't been much since the imaging substrate switched from gelatin to silicon. A stop of DR here, dual cross AF points there, it's all basically incremental change.

Don't agree about that at all. The innovation at e.g. Sony over the last years has been HUGE compared to Canon.

what innovation?

IBIS? been done seen that.
BSI? been done seen that.
Mirrorless full frame? been done. seen that.
PDAF working with adapter? been done. seen that.
Trashing a raw file with a completely gimped compression that even a complete moron could write better? there you go.
selilng 3K+ camera bodies and 2k+ lenses that you have to farm out to third party support. winner.

The only thing truly innovative with the sony ILC line is really playmemories.

That's something no one else really does, and has done before.

The GM series lenses have some pretty unique AF capabilities - that's innovative.

thinking that shoving a sensor of full frame size or aps-c size into a smaller camera is innovative is ridiculous.

canon's innovations were and are more around ecosystems, where I'm perfectly happy with.

 

[rrcphoto]

They still want us to wait NEARLY ANOTHER YEAR for a proper EOS M camera?
After telling us there'd be something good "soon" towards the end of last year?

They're ******** joking.

I think I'll end up getting the Fujifilm X-Pro 2 then.

Oh dude, chill. Waiting for a good camera is nothing too bad. And enjoy your 70D in the meantime. I mean, what is all the hack about? "Oh ******, I will have to wait a year for a new product that wasn't even announced officially yet!!!!"... choleric? ^^

Where the bloody hell did you dream up the idea that I have a 70D?

Do you just invent reality as you see fit?

5D3, "Choleric Dude".

your profile says 70d.

 

[dcm]

Seems some are hung up on the term "copying". How about leading and following? Both have led in some areas and followed in others. Each segments the market/customer needs differently and tries to lead in the areas important to their intended customers.

 

[Loswr]

Where the bloody hell did you dream up the idea that I have a 70D?

Do you just invent reality as you see fit?

your profile says 70d.

It says 6D under your name, do you have one? If so, it's a coincidence. What sort of camera is 'CR GEEK', and what's its DxO Score?

The camera or lens (or other, in my case) is linked to your post count, just like the number of blocks.

 

[AvTvM]

Right now, no smell of a new EOS-M "Pro" ... It only reeks of more ho-hum iterations of crippled low end EOS-M stuff. Meanwhile Sony A6300 and Fuji (i expect XT-2 some time soon and then an XE-3) will be happily getting buyers' money. Canon's bad, not mine!

 

[TWI by Dustin Abbott]

Right now, no smell of a new EOS-M "Pro" ... It only reeks of more ho-hum iterations of crippled low end EOS-M stuff. Meanwhile Sony A6300 and Fuji (i expect XT-2 some time soon and then an XE-3) will be happily getting buyers' money. Canon's bad, not mine!

I'm very seriously considering jumping on the A6300 for video capability in various settings and the ability to continue to mostly utilize my existing lenses via adapter. Looks like fun.

 

[rrcphoto]

G7X II is reported to have a DIGIC7 capable of 8 FPS, RAW Source: DigiCam (today)

If they can do 8FPS @ 20MP with a lower clocked DIGIC7, they can do the rumored 8FPS @ 24MP (or more) on a higher clocked DIGIC7 that would be present in the Pro-M, upcoming later this year...

I'd say that rumor of 8FPS+ is valid, wonderful, I knew they'd get there, eventually. Happy for the G7X users, that 1FPS per second RAW was a real crap shoot for the G series power shots...

Edit:

Recent Canon Kbs are out confirming the 80D, but not the G7X II, but, the Kbs relate to optical corrections in DPP which obviously there are none in the G7X II since it's lens is integrated.

Bad news, no EOS M is in those DPP articles; it'll be awhile longer... No CP+ for a Pro-M...

canon won't release a pro-M with it's current set of lenses out for the EF-M. expecting that is foolish.

however it's nice to see the powershot group get off their arses and improve their firmware base.

 

[Loswr]

Right now, no smell of a new EOS-M "Pro" ... It only reeks of more ho-hum iterations of crippled low end EOS-M stuff. Meanwhile Sony A6300 and Fuji (i expect XT-2 some time soon and then an XE-3) will be happily getting buyers' money. Canon's bad, not mine!

Yep, Canon is counting their yen as Sony loses MILC share to Olympus and Fuji struggles to lift their market share off the X-axis.