Canon Full Frame Mirrorless [CR2]

[ahsanford]

My need is an almost pocketable full frame with a fixed 35mm 1.4 IS and clean ISO at 3200. Built in flash pls.

If the RX1 line of cameras -- with a 35mm f/2 fixed lens that is somewhat buried in the body -- is nowhere near pocketable, good luck with an f/1.4 pulling that off.

I suppose if your pockets are the size of lunchboxes, there is hope.

- A

 

[Mistral75]

(...)

MILC shipments are falling – so far this year they've dropped nearly 20% compared to last year.

To be more specific, according to CIPA data and comparing January - August 2016 (most recent data available) to January - August 2015:

- DSLRs: -18.7% in number of units and -22.1% in sales
- mirrorless cameras: -16.4% in number of units and -10% in sales.

Source: http://www.cipa.jp/stats/documents/e/d-201608_e.pdf

 

[jebrady03]

My need is an almost pocketable full frame with a fixed 35mm 1.4 IS and clean ISO at 3200. Built in flash pls.

If the RX1 line of cameras -- with a 35mm f/2 fixed lens that is somewhat buried in the body -- is nowhere near pocketable, good luck with an f/1.4 pulling that off.

I suppose if your pockets are the size of lunchboxes, there is hope.

- A

DAMNIT, why would you let reality get in the way of a wishlist item? There'll be NONE OF THAT HERE! You hear me?!

 

[ahsanford]

My need is an almost pocketable full frame with a fixed 35mm 1.4 IS and clean ISO at 3200. Built in flash pls.

If the RX1 line of cameras -- with a 35mm f/2 fixed lens that is somewhat buried in the body -- is nowhere near pocketable, good luck with an f/1.4 pulling that off.

I suppose if your pockets are the size of lunchboxes, there is hope.

- A

DAMNIT, why would you let reality get in the way of a wishlist item? There'll be NONE OF THAT HERE! You hear me?!

Just kidding, I'm sure Canon is working on it. Right after they give AvTvM his EF-M 80mm f/2 STM IS in pancake format.

- A

 

[Zv]

so much the most hyperbole ever.
:

Fixed it for you.

- A

...

One very natural 2016 job would be the task to shoot 40-50MP photos with high frame rates, and at the same time stabilized mid range video at f2.8.

Yes. Quite natural indeed. I often shoot 1000 or so 50 megapixel images in a row on burst mode and then immediately turn around and shoot video in low light without a tripod. All.the.flippin.time!

 

[Loswr]

(...)

MILC shipments are falling – so far this year they've dropped nearly 20% compared to last year.

To be more specific, according to CIPA data and comparing January - August 2016 (most recent data available) to January - August 2015:

- DSLRs: -18.7% in number of units and -22.1% in sales
- mirrorless cameras: -16.4% in number of units and -10% in sales.

Source: http://www.cipa.jp/stats/documents/e/d-201608_e.pdf

To clarify, you mean value of units shipped, which doesn't necessarily equal sales.

 

[Mistral75]

(...)

MILC shipments are falling – so far this year they've dropped nearly 20% compared to last year.

To be more specific, according to CIPA data and comparing January - August 2016 (most recent data available) to January - August 2015:

- DSLRs: -18.7% in number of units and -22.1% in sales
- mirrorless cameras: -16.4% in number of units and -10% in sales.

Source: http://www.cipa.jp/stats/documents/e/d-201608_e.pdf

To clarify, you mean value of units shipped, which doesn't necessarily equal sales.

I mean sales by the mother company to the local distributors, the latter including subsidiaries of said mother company, and definitely not sales to the end users.

I don't know whether the unit prices used correspond to EXW, DAT or any other Incoterms.

 

[scrup]

Am I right in assuming that current EF-M lenses won't cover a full frame sensor if it were possible to fit one into an EOS M today

Probably, but you may well be surprised. One interesting experiment is to take standard Canon EF-S lenses and, with the metabones adaptor, use them on the Sony A7RII FF mirrorless. By default it recognises these are APS-C lenses and crops down accordingly (ie 18mpx 1.5x crop rather than 40mpx full frame), but in the menu you can force it to use the full sensor and then we see some interesting things.

Most lenses I tried comfortably fill a much greater area than the APS-C rectangle (albeit with decreased sharpness and vignetting). The venerable EF-S 18-55 kit lens almost fills the full frame sensor at 24mm with just a tiny crop at the corners!

Certainly if you had an EF-M lens and could fit it on a FF mirrorless camera I wouldn't expect FF coverage in every case, but I'd be surprised if you didn't get more than the APS-C area.

If I were Canon, I'd announce a new Mirrorless FF camera as (assuming same sensor size as A7RII) a 18/40mpx camera stating that the standard resolution is 18mpx, with 40mpx full frame available only with suitable lenses.
That way there would be much less confusion.


Also.... It's not like Canon has a huge range of EF-M lenses that would become obsolete right now...

Thank you for your reply! Yeah I think your last couple of points are good ones. There could be a crop mode on the theoretical FF mirrorless for use with existing EF-M lenses that way you get some use out of them while waiting for more EF-Mx (or whatever you want to call them) lenses are being developed. Obviously the EF-M adaptor would work as a way to get full use out of the sensor in the meantime.

Hey, wasn't there a rumor about a new EF-M adaptor? I wonder if that's related somehow to this rumor? Will it be something that will work on this FF mirrorless perhaps?

4k video is also in crop mode as seen on the 5d. The crop lenses will still have a use on full frame mirrorless if the mount remains EF-M.

 

[rrcphoto]

(...)

MILC shipments are falling – so far this year they've dropped nearly 20% compared to last year.

To be more specific, according to CIPA data and comparing January - August 2016 (most recent data available) to January - August 2015:

- DSLRs: -18.7% in number of units and -22.1% in sales
- mirrorless cameras: -16.4% in number of units and -10% in sales.

Source: http://www.cipa.jp/stats/documents/e/d-201608_e.pdf

To clarify, you mean value of units shipped, which doesn't necessarily equal sales.

I mean sales by the mother company to the local distributors, the latter including subsidiaries of said mother company, and definitely not sales to the end users.

I don't know whether the unit prices used correspond to EXW, DAT or any other Incoterms.

it's not even that really. it's the export value.

but for all practical purposes it's nearly impossible to gauge this year because of the Sony fab plant issues.

so unit / sales being down this year has more to do with Sony's sensor plant than the market.

Canon has happily shipped a shi_ton of MILC's this year as well as DSLR's.

Also looking at just the line item summary is disingenuous because it's really the Asian Market that is carrying MILC volumes right now - which is mostly Canon MILC's.

 

[sanj]

My need is an almost pocketable full frame with a fixed 35mm 1.4 IS and clean ISO at 3200. Built in flash pls.

If the RX1 line of cameras -- with a 35mm f/2 fixed lens that is somewhat buried in the body -- is nowhere near pocketable, good luck with an f/1.4 pulling that off.

I suppose if your pockets are the size of lunchboxes, there is hope.

- A

DAMNIT, why would you let reality get in the way of a wishlist item? There'll be NONE OF THAT HERE! You hear me?!

;D

 

[jeffa4444]

The whole point of mirrorless is to reduce the back-focus

nope, it's to reduce mechanical dependancies on the mirror mechanism - you know.. that's why they call it .. MIRROR-LESS .. and not "short registration distance" cameras?

When was the last time you sat on lens standards committees (I am)? I said MIRRORLESS so by defacto that means no mirror which includes its mechanical components. My point was clear a shorter back-focus has advantages in providing uniform light distribution to the whole sensor (which should include a larger image circle to mitigate lens shading in corners) as well as other optical improvements.

well actually you're wrong, short back focus doesn't provide a larger image circle nor does it actually assist with vignetting. it's actually more complicated because the variance in even the sensor stacks can cause significant differences in optical performance. In other words, it's harder for third party manufacturers to provide lenses that work well across different cameras and camera systems.

Not to mention that for full frame sensors, a short back focus, then relies on more expensive sensor fabrication, such as BSI, or clever microlenses (which can use their own sets of problems with adapted lenses, or longer focal lenses) to mitigate the issues of the angle of incidence hitting the microlenses, and the lack of light actually getting to the PD's.

it's not the main benefit of mirror-less at all, the main benefit is reducing manufacturing, QC and warranty costs to the manufacturer, and also providing a more homogeneous view for both stills and video. You can't even really say that small primes are an advantage, because it's in a narrow focal range and some people prefer the god aweful look of an EVF over an OVF. of course it's also a benefit for people that like to adapt lenses, but then again, the EF mount already allows a good amount of that.

Once again you've incorrectly read my post. I did not say shorter back focus provides a larger image circle I said to provide for better distribution of light you need a larger image circle so the micro lenses can uniformly see the light which normally requires telecentric optical designs and a larger image circle without overly complicating microlens designs on sensors. Telecentric designs allow for better control of many abberations with the correct glass types and coatings.

I made no mention of lens sizes or EVF. Once an optical stack is "known" their are ways of adjusting lens designs slightly to adjust for flange focal distance say 17mm to 22mm for third party manufacturers. We manufacture lenses and sit with other manufacturers regarding open standards and its clear that flange depth has been decreasing and their has been an increase in the design of telecentric lens types.

 

[ahsanford]

Enough chit chat! POLL: http://www.canonrumors.com/forum/index.php?topic=31154.0

- A

 

[AvTvM]

MILCs are still the minority in the market, hovering at ~25%. MILC shipments are falling – so far this year they've dropped nearly 20% compared to last year.

the only noteworthy fact beneath the numbers is the absolutely astounding number of MILCS sold, given the fact, that the two companies dominating 80%+ of mirrorslapper market, have NO FF MILC system to market and only 1 half-assed APS-C MILC system ... we are talking of 3 current MILC bodies and 6 native mirrorless lenses for all of Canon and Nikon combined [no Nikon 1 is not current any longer, it is dead in the water]. Versus 10+ CaNikon mirrorslappers and a shitload of CaNikon lenses for them.

I find the number of MILC shipments *astoundingly high*, given the available supply of cameras and lenses!

Also, those retro Fuji APS-C MILCs and lenses are rather pricey and those Sony MILCs have quite some UI quirks and very expensive and/or subpar glass only ... and the rest is dwarf-sensor m43 stuff only ... to me this indicates that their is STRONG demand in the amrket for smaller, lighter AND fully capable camera systems. Otrherwise people would not buy so many units of the current few MILC offerings.

 

[Loswr]

MILCs are still the minority in the market, hovering at ~25%. MILC shipments are falling – so far this year they've dropped nearly 20% compared to last year.

the only noteworthy fact beneath the numbers is the absolutely astounding number of MILCS sold, given the fact, that the two companies dominating 80%+ of mirrorslapper market, have NO FF MILC system to market and only 1 half-assed APS-C MILC system ... we are talking of 3 current MILC bodies and 6 native mirrorless lenses for all of Canon and Nikon combined [no Nikon 1 is not current any longer, it is dead in the water]. Versus 10+ CaNikon mirrorslappers and a S___load of CaNikon lenses for them.

That one Canon system is now #3 in Japan, and because of Sony's sensor fab issues, nearly half of that 'astoundingly high' number of MILCs shipped this year are EOS M cameras.

 

[douglaurent]

I still don't get why people that are happy with the status quo and current Canon products waste their time in a forum that obviously is all about future Canon products with obviously changed or additional features.

 

[Loswr]

I still don't get why people that are happy with the status quo and current Canon products waste their time in a forum that obviously is all about future Canon products with obviously changed or additional features.

I still don't get why people who are unhappy with the status quo and current Canon products waste their time in a forum that obviously has no impact on the product development decisions that Canon has and will be making.

 

[Zv]

I still don't get why people that are happy with the status quo and current Canon products waste their time in a forum that obviously is all about future Canon products with obviously changed or additional features.

Because speculation and discussion with other photographers around the world is fun? Do you really not get why we talk about future gear prospects in a gear related forum?

 

[brad-man]

I still don't get why people that are happy with the status quo and current Canon products waste their time in a forum (Canon Rumors) that obviously is all about future Canon products with obviously changed or additional features.

 

[AvTvM]

I still don't get why people who are unhappy with the status quo and current Canon products waste their time in a forum that obviously has no impact on the product development decisions that Canon has and will be making.

do you pull this opinion out your ass, or do you have facts to prove it?
I bet, those Canon folks are watching this forum and others rather closely. After all, they even pay some people to write nothing but nice things about them ... ;D

 

[Orangutan]

I still don't get why people who are unhappy with the status quo and current Canon products waste their time in a forum that obviously has no impact on the product development decisions that Canon has and will be making.

do you pull this opinion out your ass, or do you have facts to prove it?
I bet, those Canon folks are watching this forum and others rather closely. After all, they even pay some people to write nothing but nice things about them ... ;D

Just curious: what enthusiastically sought-after new features have been implemented in the short-term?

• Sony-level DR? No
• FF mirrorless? No, and apparently not for a year or more.
• Video / liveview features (e.g. zebras, focus peaking)? No
• Specific lenses? No
• Hybrid viewfinder? No
• Multiple card slots in all prosumer cameras? No
• Specific feature mix / price-point? No
  

If they're watching, it's only for comedy value.