Canon Full Frame Mirrorless Talk [CR1]

Antono Refa

EOS R
Mar 26, 2014
1,074
259
douglaurent said:
Mikehit said:
douglaurent said:
And even if by then Canon keeps up with a Sony A9R2 or A7R4, the Canon camera will have the disadvantage of less lens options, no speedboosters etc. Sony just released a 16-35/2.8 and 12-24/4. In 1.5 years it's likely they have their native lens lineup complete incl. tele lenses. What Canon advantage is left by then?
And how many times are you gong to spout this garbage about it being Canon's responsibility to produce a speedbooster so you can fit third party lenses onto their cameras?
If this is your idea of good marketing strategy you are a conceptual retard whose opinions are merely a wishlist of what you want. If Canon followed your suggestions they would go bust.
Unfortunately for you I never demanded or expected that Canon will introduce a Speedbooster, as of course it's technically impossible. But it's a 100% true and clear disadvantage for Canon and a fact that is worth mentioning once every 4 month. Like temporary disadvantages of Sony which are mentioned here 10 times a day by others.
Speed booster is possible only if the lens' power of coverage is greater than the camera's sensor, so the Sony a9 (or whichever Sony FF camera) would have no advantage, in this respect, over a Canon full frame mirrorless.

As for adapters, if the flange distance & diameter allow it, and demand exists for it, some third party manufacturer(s) would make it.
 

ewg963

EOS RP
Mar 2, 2012
355
0
Meriden CT USA
Great plan Canon you already a great line up of glass which I own quite a bit of... I can't wait!!! :) :) :) :) :) :) :) :) :) :) :) :) :) :)... but it's a CR1 drat!!!!!! :'( :'( :'( :'( :'( :'( :'(
 

lightthief

EOS M6 Mark II
Feb 23, 2014
73
5
M_S said:
Since I like the ergonomics of the Mark3/4, I would like to see the follwoing:
  • Mark 4 Body and put an EVF in and the mirror out
Which Mark 4 do you mean?
This one is not portable (at least for me) ...
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mark_IV_tank
... and this one, smaller but still not portable, has no mirror to remove.
http://l.yimg.com/g/images/spaceout.gif
???
 

MayaTlab

EOS 90D
Oct 6, 2015
192
77
neuroanatomist said:
Maximilian said:
Canon have immense experience in designing teleconverters, and still teleconverters take a hit on AF speed and accuracy ...
Hi Mikehit!

Sorry, but I don't get your point.

A flange distance adapter is not a teleconverter.
A teleconverter has an influence on optical formula, focal length and aperture.
An adapter is only setting the optical formula in relationship to the image plane.
And it has to conduct the electrical signals properly - without altering them.

Problem with EOS M and adapter hitting the AF performance of EF/EF-S lenses is also not clear to me.
But that's a question for Canon development. It seems they've decided to built up the EOS M AF system different to the EOS.

So why should they do so again when aiming at customers with EF lenses?
The exact nature of the problem using the EF mount adapter and why there's a performance hit is not clear to me, either...but what is clear is that such a performance hit does exist. It seems very unlikely that Canon would find that performance hit desirable, therefore there must be some problem they were unable to solve. What makes you so sure they could solve it for EF lenses on a new short-flange mount for a FF sensor, when they could not solve it for EF lenses on a new short-flange mount for an APS-C sensor?
It might not be related to the adapter, but to the AF motor used in most EF lenses. So far most if not nearly all lenses designed for mirrorless cameras use AF drive approaches that are significantly different from DSLR PDAF cameras.
 
Oct 7, 2013
350
0
neuroanatomist said:
douglaurent said:
Canon's (and Nikon's) reputation, popularity and service seem to be going downhill, and Sony, Panasonic and Olympus are going the other direction.
Your evidence for Canon's popularity going downhill is what? Their rising market share? Oh, that's right...it's your opinion, which is shared by 50 of your close friends and colleagues. Yeah. ::)
...or what you can read in worldwide photo forums, or hear from photographers and filmmakers everywhere. Because it's not a subjective feeling, it's based on the specs and features of existing camera models, and clearly visible different speeds of innovation between Canon/Nikon and Sony/Panasonic/Olympus.
 
Oct 7, 2013
350
0
Ryananthony said:
douglaurent said:
Strangely, the feel of a Canon DSLR and a Sony mirrorless camera is pretty similar to the use of CanonRumors and ++++++++Rumors: CanonRumors for example is nearly unreadable on cell phones and does not allow me to change the stupid public "6D" user info I never added - it feels very much like 2010.

The Sony forum, like the cameras, feels like it's 2017. While the Sony mirrorless cameras have lots of refreshing and important features like a third wheel for ISO, the Sony rumors website has lots more little refreshing and important infos about their brand's products.

If something good can be done better, it had to be said.
What about viewing the forum on mobile is nearly unreadable? Using Chrome on my Android, it converts perfectly to my phone. For me it is 100% mobile friendly. Sounds like you are misunderstood about the ''6d'' label under your name. As your posts rise, that ''6d'' will change to higher end cameras, and I believe lenses. If you want to show off your cameras, you can use your signature like many others have done. I support the addition of a third wheel to Canon cameras.
Using the built in web browser of always the latest Samsung smartphone, the text of this forum is too small or too wide.

Who the hell should understand that "6D" concept without knowing?

Funny that this forum - automatically or manually - does xxx out the correct name of the Sony forum I mentioned. Don't think it will ever happen when I write "Canonrumors" in the Sony forum. That's another example for typical artificial Canon limitation style.
 
Oct 7, 2013
350
0
LonelyBoy said:
douglaurent said:
Strangely, the feel of a Canon DSLR and a Sony mirrorless camera is pretty similar to the use of CanonRumors and ++++++++Rumors: CanonRumors for example is nearly unreadable on cell phones and does not allow me to change the stupid public "6D" user info I never added - it feels very much like 2010.

The Sony forum, like the cameras, feels like it's 2017. While the Sony mirrorless cameras have lots of refreshing and important features like a third wheel for ISO, the Sony rumors website has lots more little refreshing and important infos about their brand's products.

If something good can be done better, it had to be said.
Serious question: Why are you still shooting Canon and hanging out on this forum? It sounds like you'd be happier with a Sony and on those forums. So, why are you still here with "inferior" cameras and forum software? Is there something missing from the Sony paradise, maybe?
I own nearly complete pro camera and lens lineups of all brands, as I also rent out stuff. And I use all systems daily, which is why I can compare and recognize the differences. Traditionally I would always use Canon first, but it's frustrating when you experience the many unnecessary limitations and missing features of their products.

And I also wrote many times that this whole forum is about NEW Canon product developments. So when you want to avoid hearing about what Canon logically can improve, you can shut down the whole forum.
 
Oct 7, 2013
350
0
Speed booster is possible only if the lens' power of coverage is greater than the camera's sensor, so the Sony a9 (or whichever Sony FF camera) would have no advantage, in this respect, over a Canon full frame mirrorless.

As for adapters, if the flange distance & diameter allow it, and demand exists for it, some third party manufacturer(s) would make it.
[/quote]

4K video can be recorded in crop mode and is even better then, which means lots of Canon/Nikon/Sigma/Tamron full frame lenses would work great on a Sony A9 as well. On a Sony A7R2 you nearly have 20MP photos with a speedbooster.
 

Orangutan

EOS 5D Mark IV
Sep 25, 2010
2,140
3
douglaurent said:
So when you want to avoid hearing about what Canon logically can improve, you can shut down the whole forum.
This is the core of your misunderstanding: NO ONE here that I'm aware of is unwilling to talk about improvements we'd like to see in Canon products. The problem is that some folks, such as yourself, phrase these discussions in apocalyptic terms, such as Canon is destined to fail if they don't ______ very soon, because Sony will crush them."

The problem is your hyperbole.

What we know from history is that Canon has been very skilled (as a business). They've come into new markets as they have needed to (from the business perspective). Based on history, and based on the interviews with executives, they're very much aware of the changes happening in the market, and are simply waiting for the best (i.e. most profitable) time to act.

Feel free to discuss and compare features

Please discontinue the apocalyptic hyperbole
 

romanr74

I see, thus I am
Aug 4, 2012
531
0
46
Switzerland
Orangutan said:
[...] and are simply waiting for the best (i.e. most profitable) time to act.
You might be right. And I hope you're right. I would hate to find out at some stage that they just missed the bus. Am I certain this is not the case? Probably not.
 

LonelyBoy

EOS RP
Feb 18, 2015
745
0
douglaurent said:
I own nearly complete pro camera and lens lineups of all brands, as I also rent out stuff. And I use all systems daily, which is why I can compare and recognize the differences. Traditionally I would always use Canon first, but it's frustrating when you experience the many unnecessary limitations and missing features of their products.

And I also wrote many times that this whole forum is about NEW Canon product developments. So when you want to avoid hearing about what Canon logically can improve, you can shut down the whole forum.
Good for you. However, if you don't like the site, and find Canon products frustrating, why not sell them off and use the others you prefer? You still didn't answer the question.
 

LonelyBoy

EOS RP
Feb 18, 2015
745
0
douglaurent said:
...or what you can read in worldwide photo forums, or hear from photographers and filmmakers everywhere. Because it's not a subjective feeling, it's based on the specs and features of existing camera models, and clearly visible different speeds of innovation between Canon/Nikon and Sony/Panasonic/Olympus.
How exactly is that more meaningful than actual sales data?
 

romanr74

I see, thus I am
Aug 4, 2012
531
0
46
Switzerland
LonelyBoy said:
douglaurent said:
...or what you can read in worldwide photo forums, or hear from photographers and filmmakers everywhere. Because it's not a subjective feeling, it's based on the specs and features of existing camera models, and clearly visible different speeds of innovation between Canon/Nikon and Sony/Panasonic/Olympus.
How exactly is that more meaningful than actual sales data?
I don't think there is sales data publicly available which is meaningful enough for this discussion.
 

neuroanatomist

I post too Much on Here!!
CR Pro
Jul 21, 2010
24,647
2,163
douglaurent said:
neuroanatomist said:
douglaurent said:
Canon's (and Nikon's) reputation, popularity and service seem to be going downhill, and Sony, Panasonic and Olympus are going the other direction.
Your evidence for Canon's popularity going downhill is what? Their rising market share? Oh, that's right...it's your opinion, which is shared by 50 of your close friends and colleagues. Yeah. ::)
...or what you can read in worldwide photo forums, or hear from photographers and filmmakers everywhere. Because it's not a subjective feeling, it's based on the specs and features of existing camera models, and clearly visible different speeds of innovation between Canon/Nikon and Sony/Panasonic/Olympus.
The specs are not subjective, but what you 'hear from photographers and filmmakers everywhere' is absolutely subjective...and when they go out and buy Canon anyway, what you hear becomes irrelevant. Auto shows are full of discussions about Lambroghinis and Ferraris, and about the innovative concept cars from Lexus and Infinity. But most those folks talking about them get into their Toyota sedans and Ford SUVs to drive home.

Apparently you can't seem to accept the objective reality that Canon is the most popular global brand for dSLRs. How sad.
 

LonelyBoy

EOS RP
Feb 18, 2015
745
0
romanr74 said:
LonelyBoy said:
douglaurent said:
...or what you can read in worldwide photo forums, or hear from photographers and filmmakers everywhere. Because it's not a subjective feeling, it's based on the specs and features of existing camera models, and clearly visible different speeds of innovation between Canon/Nikon and Sony/Panasonic/Olympus.
How exactly is that more meaningful than actual sales data?
I don't think there is sales data publicly available which is meaningful enough for this discussion.
How is the sales data of Canon vs Sony not meaningful enough? How is the marketshare of DSLRs vs ML not meaningful enough? They get posted here quite regularly.
 

neuroanatomist

I post too Much on Here!!
CR Pro
Jul 21, 2010
24,647
2,163
LonelyBoy said:
romanr74 said:
LonelyBoy said:
douglaurent said:
...or what you can read in worldwide photo forums, or hear from photographers and filmmakers everywhere. Because it's not a subjective feeling, it's based on the specs and features of existing camera models, and clearly visible different speeds of innovation between Canon/Nikon and Sony/Panasonic/Olympus.
How exactly is that more meaningful than actual sales data?
I don't think there is sales data publicly available which is meaningful enough for this discussion.
How is the sales data of Canon vs Sony not meaningful enough? How is the marketshare of DSLRs vs ML not meaningful enough? They get posted here quite regularly.
For some people, data are only meaningful if they support one's preconcieved opinions.
 

romanr74

I see, thus I am
Aug 4, 2012
531
0
46
Switzerland
LonelyBoy said:
romanr74 said:
LonelyBoy said:
douglaurent said:
...or what you can read in worldwide photo forums, or hear from photographers and filmmakers everywhere. Because it's not a subjective feeling, it's based on the specs and features of existing camera models, and clearly visible different speeds of innovation between Canon/Nikon and Sony/Panasonic/Olympus.
How exactly is that more meaningful than actual sales data?
I don't think there is sales data publicly available which is meaningful enough for this discussion.
How is the sales data of Canon vs Sony not meaningful enough? How is the marketshare of DSLRs vs ML not meaningful enough? They get posted here quite regularly.
I don't think that the total sales number is meaningful enough to understand how well the different companies do with their business decisions with the different stakeholders out there. Meaningful data would include product groups, performance level, form factor, sales channel, consumer groups, promotion, product life cycle, margins etc.
 

LonelyBoy

EOS RP
Feb 18, 2015
745
0
romanr74 said:
I don't think that the total sales number is meaningful enough to understand how well the different companies do with their business decisions with the different stakeholders out there. Meaningful data would include product groups, performance level, form factor, sales channel, consumer groups, promotion, product life cycle, margins etc.
Spoiler alert: it's Canon all the way down.
 

Mikehit

EOS R6
Jul 28, 2015
3,309
502
romanr74 said:
I don't think that the total sales number is meaningful enough to understand how well the different companies do with their business decisions with the different stakeholders out there. Meaningful data would include product groups, performance level, form factor, sales channel, consumer groups, promotion, product life cycle, margins etc.
Product groups - I believe Canon leads sales in DSLR and mirrorless. How narrowly do you want so split that? Sony would win the FF mirrorless only because they are about the only company making them. If they are a minority in the APS-C mirrorless the only conclusion you can draw is that people prefer to buy DSLR APS-C

performance level - this is ambiguous. What use is a high-performance product if people don't like the size/shape/colour/after sales service...etc What is the use of making the world's best medicine if people hate the taste?

Form factor - what has that got to do with it? What use is the best designed camera if it only has a crap sensor?

Life cycle: is Sony's rapid life cycle better than Canon's slow one? They sure have hacked off many a user who feels cheated by being made to buy a sub-standard product 12 months later

Sales is a measure of all those aspects as a whole package. The backers of Betamax where whining the same thing 30 years ago and ended up losing to a technically inferior product. Oh look...Sony made Betamax as well....
The problem is sales is an indicator if you got it right after the event. Taking short-term sales figures as 'proof' can be as dangerous as relying on them to justify complacency. One thing with Sony is you can say 'they have got exciting products' but what you cannot do is look at Sony and say 'they know how to do it in the long term'.
On the other hand, you can say is 'Canon know how to do it in the long term' and that they are developing mirrorless at a slower pace - and they have closed the gap significantly in the last 2 years. The key question is 'when mirrorless really takes a big share of the DSLR-style market in 3-4 years (?) will they have advanced enough to keep their pre-eminence'.

people like douglaurent seem to be saying 'No'. others are more relaxed about it