Canon Full Frame Mirrorless Talk [CR1]

[Loswr]

The evidence of 20+ precious features that only competitors of Canon do offer in their camera, and the knowledge that many photographers are not stupid enough to oversee these facts.

I guess it's a good thing for Canon that even more photographers are not stupid enough to sacrifice basics like reliability, usability and customer support to get those 20+ features that only you seem to think are precious.

 

[Loswr]

The main question here is: why are people who don't think that anything from extremely steady sensor stabilization to seeing the actual exposure in a viewfinder and many other obvious and basic improvements do even spend time in a forum that is all about new product developments, when in fact they are not interested in any of that? Or what are the great features YOU want to see from Canon? Please send us your wish list.

I want a 600/4 that's shorter than my arm (i.e., DO) with a built-in, dedicated flip-out 1.4x TC. I want a high-MP sensor in a 1-series body. I want a 90mm TS-E with push-button orientation change for T relative to S. I want an OEM -RT receiver which would allow me to integrate monolights with an ST-E3/600EX-RT system. I wanted DPAF in a small M form factor, Canon delivered that one already and I will be ordering an M6 before my next trip.

Maybe it's better when we continue to talk in 5-10 years

...when Sony has lost MILC marketshare to the point where they abandon the market completely, just as they did their dSLR lines. Yes, let's talk then…

 

[Mikehit]

....because you also don't want to miss the many new features that Canon competitors already do offer today.

I just bought a 1DX MkII, what features have I missed out on that will make an actual real world difference to my shooting?

The D5 is not 'better' anywhere and the A9 doesn't have the lens support I need today. When I want live view I use 'Live View', if the light is bad I can use an eyepiece on that larger screen with more resolution. I already have histogram's, blinkies and a host of 'must have' features, and, if early reports hold up to greater scrutiny, it appears of the high speed 'action' cameras the 1DX MkII is the outright leader in IQ.

Don't forget that douglaurent himself has stated that the 1Dx2 is better than any Sony camera (as I posted above)

 

[unfocused]

...and I really doubt you have all these cameras, and as you say - use them every day. frankly I doubt you have anything other than a freaking Fischer price camera that you play with in your mom's basement.

In a previous thread, he indicated that he owns/runs a rental business. I find that plausible. But, that would also help explain the obsessive fascination with "features." Photographers who use a camera day in and day out and rely on it to put food on the table tend to be less enamored of new features. Instead, most want a reliable tool that they are familiar with and produces predictable and repeatable results. A rental shop owner needs to provide the latest toys and tools for people to try out and to use for specialized purposes. The mistake Mr. Laurent seems to be making is thinking that his experience and preferences can be extended to a majority or even a sizable minority of photographers.

 

[unfocused]

Personally, I see nothing wrong with saying that Canon has the best selling DSLRs and that overall their system is the best (and that includes things like lenses, accessories, service, and ergonomics), but at the same time saying that there are places where they can (or should) improve.

The two are not mutually exclusive.

Agreed. I don't think I have ever read any post by any of the most ardent Canon fans here that indicated 100% satisfaction or a lack of desire for improvements.

Rather, I think we all (and I include you in this category) have looked at our own needs and interests and made what we view to be a rational purchasing decision. What offends is when others suggest that our rational decisions are somehow invalid and caused by blind loyalty or an unwillingness to consider the many perceived advantages of a competitor.

This is too often linked to silly, irrational claims about the future viability of a company because they aren't building a custom-designed product for one individual.

In my opinion, too many critics resort to adding up features as though the world is one giant game in which winners are determined by who has the best statistics. This is a bit like declaring a basketball team to be winners because they put the ball through the hoop the most times, while ignoring the number of 1, 2 and 3 point shots made. Not all features are equal and the relative value of each feature is a matter of personal taste. Most of the so-called advantages of electronic viewfinders for example have zero interest to me. I made my camera choice based on what works for me. It just so happens that a whole lot of other photographers apparently share similar desires, which is the message that can be gleaned from sales statistics.

 

[Mikehit]

...and I really doubt you have all these cameras, and as you say - use them every day. frankly I doubt you have anything other than a freaking Fischer price camera that you play with in your mom's basement.

In a previous thread, he indicated that he owns/runs a rental business. I find that plausible. But, that would also help explain the obsessive fascination with "features." Photographers who use a camera day in and day out and rely on it to put food on the table tend to be less enamored of new features. Instead, most want a reliable tool that they are familiar with and produces predictable and repeatable results. A rental shop owner needs to provide the latest toys and tools for people to try out and to use for specialized purposes. The mistake Mr. Laurent seems to be making is thinking that his experience and preferences can be extended to a majority or even a sizable minority of photographers.

Then again, someone who runs a rental business and claims to have every camera available to them would know the sort of thing the general consumer wants and how it fits into the general market.
Douglaurent seems to be ignorant of both.

 

[gregory4000]

Wow, Iv'e been reading a lot of comments to get to this point. And I'm surprised how 95% of the readers don't get it.
Sony is a serious threat to Canon and Nikon.
Four years ago, there is on one on this forum who could care less about Sony mirrorless. Is was a sorry excuse for a full frame camera.
Four years later most here are arguing who has the more useful feature, You may like this but I don't cares the return comment, Whatever you may think, these are the facts. Sony is closing quickly on Nikon and Canon with features on the A9 where those who have used it say "they really work". The camera is getting 8000+ photos from a single battery, just one of many features that Nikon or Canon can not get close to. But remember just a month ago their battery life was terrible.
So why the change so quickly. Well I feel that Canon appreciates the potential that mirrorless technology can accomplish and doesn't wish to discover in a few years that many professionals will make a brand change for a camera body. Thus, a full frame camera in the works. But more importantly an Ef mount. Why EF. Because Canon will be purchasing sensors from Sony and a trade deal was struck. Both parties win, Canon leaps into a higher quality sensor while Sony becomes "a" major lens supplier with higher future sales.
This is a survival strategy for Canon. And a very smart one!

 

[Loswr]

Wow, Iv'e been reading a lot of comments to get to this point. And I'm surprised how 95% of the readers don't get it.
Sony is a serious threat to Canon and Nikon.
Four years ago, there is on one on this forum who could care less about Sony mirrorless. Is was a sorry excuse for a full frame camera.
Four years later most here are arguing who has the more useful feature, You may like this but I don't cares the return comment, Whatever you may think, these are the facts. Sony is closing quickly on Nikon and Canon with features on the A9 where those who have used it say "they really work". The camera is getting 8000+ photos from a single battery, just one of many features that Nikon or Canon can not get close to. But remember just a month ago their battery life was terrible.
So why the change so quickly. Well I feel that Canon appreciates the potential that mirrorless technology can accomplish and doesn't wish to discover in a few years that many professionals will make a brand change for a camera body. Thus, a full frame camera in the works. But more importantly an Ef mount. Why EF. Because Canon will be purchasing sensors from Sony and a trade deal was struck. Both parties win, Canon leaps into a higher quality sensor while Sony becomes "a" major lens supplier with higher future sales.
This is a survival strategy for Canon. And a very smart one!

Thanks for that, a good laugh is always appreciated!

 

[gregory4000]

like I said...95%

 

[Loswr]

like I said...95%

95% don't get your point? I'll buy that. It's because you're making no sense.

Sony has been ahead on 'features' for years. Canon has kept right on selling even more ILCs. Now Sony has a 'pro' A9 with 'more features', seemingly targeted at a group even less likely to switch away from their known brand.

Somehow, all of that means Canon has to buy FF sensors from Sony to survive. DPAF? Who cares.

Still laughing. Along with the 95% of people who read your post and understand that it's nonsensical babbling.

 

[Don Haines]

like I said...95%

95% don't get your point? I'll buy that. It's because you're making no sense.

You are just jealous that your 1DX2 does not get 8000+ pictures per battery.... BTW, my GoPro got about 130,000 pictures on a single battery..... but you should see the battery!!!!!!!

 

[Ozarker]

like I said...95%

95% don't get your point? I'll buy that. It's because you're making no sense.

You are just jealous that your 1DX2 does not get 8000+ pictures per battery.... BTW, my GoPro got about 130,000 pictures on a single battery..... but you should see the battery!!!!!!!

Cut the guy some slack, boys. Don't tell him the percentage is actually 99.9999%.

 

[Loswr]

You are just jealous that your 1DX2 does not get 8000+ pictures per battery....

For that to be true, I'd first need to have a 1D X II. Not that I've ever managed to exhaust a battery on my 1D X.

 

[privatebydesign]

You are just jealous that your 1DX2 does not get 8000+ pictures per battery....

For that to be true, I'd first need to have a 1D X II. Not that I've ever managed to exhaust a battery on my 1D X.

I've got just under 2,000 shots with 25% left after a week with *** in mode 1 and the camera in the 'On' position 18 hours a day, on the batteries first charge.

 

[Loswr]

I've got just under 2,000 shots with 25% left after a week with *** in mode 1 and the camera in the 'On' position 18 hours a day, on the batteries first charge.

Yeah, but what happens when you need 8,000 shots in a week and you've lost the charger? Clearly, you should switch to Sony.

 

[privatebydesign]

I've got just under 2,000 shots with 25% left after a week with *** in mode 1 and the camera in the 'On' position 18 hours a day, on the batteries first charge.

Yeah, but what happens when you need 8,000 shots in a week and you've lost the charger? Clearly, you should switch to Sony.

Sorry, I was being obtuse......

Now at least we all know the answer to any question photographic, SONY!

 

[hbr]

Canon will be purchasing sensors from Sonyher future sales.
This is a survival strategy for Canon. And a very smart one!

Yeah, when hell freezes over. :

 

[pokerz]

Comparing these lists, I'd say Sony has an easier path to closing their gaps than Canon does.

Except for the sales and market share gaps.

And service gaps.....
And lack of lens selection gaps......
And lack of flashes gaps......

I can only speak for myself and what I care about as a landscape enthusiast. And when I'm out shooting, I don't really care about market share, or professional services, or flashes. For the type of landscape work I do, there are no lens gaps anymore, none, although they are generally too expensive and the Zeiss lenses aren't as rugged as I'd like.

I can tell you though that I will never go back to shooting landscape with an OVF. Clinging to an OVF is a lot like clinging to film. It's that big of a game changer, no question.

FWIW, I also can't see any reason to sacrifice IBIS, better dynamic range, and better ISO performance.

Interesting, when did Sony come out with a range of four tilt shift lenses? Anybody serious about landscapes that doesn't know the extreme benefits of T/S lenses is just playing at taking pretty pictures.

Owning all current 8 Canon and Nikon Tilt Shift lenses, I can reassure you that they all work great on the Sony A7R2 - AND do work even better on the Sony body as they are stabilized.

I think you missed his point. You stated that Canon had no advantage over SONY regarding landscape photography. Clearly they have a very large advantage over SONY in landscape photography; tilt-shift lenses.

Adapt all Canon Nikon TS len to sony body.
ie. Clearly they are a very large advantage over CANON

 

[pokerz]

The main question here is: why are people who don't think that anything from extremely steady sensor stabilization to seeing the actual exposure in a viewfinder and many other obvious and basic improvements do even spend time in a forum that is all about new product developments, when in fact they are not interested in any of that? Or what are the great features YOU want to see from Canon? Please send us your wish list.

I want a 600/4 that's shorter than my arm (i.e., DO) with a built-in, dedicated flip-out 1.4x TC. I want a high-MP sensor in a 1-series body. I want a 90mm TS-E with push-button orientation change for T relative to S. I want an OEM -RT receiver which would allow me to integrate monolights with an ST-E3/600EX-RT system. I wanted DPAF in a small M form factor, Canon delivered that one already and I will be ordering an M6 before my next trip.

Maybe it's better when we continue to talk in 5-10 years

...when Sony has lost MILC marketshare to the point where they abandon the market completely, just as they did their dSLR lines. Yes, let's talk then…

True, Canon completely dumped their FD lens users
Yes, let's talk then

 

[Orangutan]

They waste some years with inconvenient workflows and missing features, because Canon plays it slow.

...

Canon losing customers to Sony or Panasonic, and also losing reputation for their slow path innovation is a fact you can read, hear and see today.

...

Just right now Canon's tactics are a lose-lose situation for them and their customers.

Aside from your own personal observations, what evidence do you have that these are true assertions?

The evidence of 20+ precious features that only competitors of Canon do offer in their camera, and the knowledge that many photographers are not stupid enough to oversee these facts.

That's not evidence, that's your personal assertions. Those features may be "precious" to you, and to some other photographers, but maybe other photographers have different priorities?

As to this:

stupid enough to oversee these facts

You are truly arrogant and childish if you think this. Most young adults grow out of this self-centered view of the world, and realize that other people have different values and experiences that lead them to make different choices.