Canon Japan shows off Canon’s 8K Cinema EOS camera coming in 2021

dolina

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From a consumer's point of view a 8K TV would only be worth buying once streaming services like Netflix and Prime Video have series & movies in 8K.

If there's an off chance of an 8K resolution Blu-ray standard were to come out it would be released by year 2026. Optical discs since the DVD tend to have a 1 decade-long introduction cycle.
The only 8K computer display I know of is $3,999 that uses a non-standard I/O to achieve 8K resolution input.

Thankfully USB 4 will support 8K & 16K displays.

Recording in 8K today or even yesterday is good as it somewhat "futureproofs" your footage.

Like say If I were to get married next year I'd want it the wedding video in 8K video clips on an SSD even if it was mastered in 4K on disc or even 1K for Facebook.

8K video today would be anachronous by my golden wedding anniversary.
 
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Sludz

CR Pro
Sep 16, 2020
4
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They showed this exact thing at the canon expo in 2015. Is this something that’s actually coming to market? Seems funny with an old c300mkii body
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Oct 11, 2020
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Unfortunately my Japanese is rusty and I'm only getting about 20% of what's being said. But it doesn't take much to infer they're saying it makes pretty pictures and opens up a world of possibilities for filmmakers.

The question -- EF or RF?
I think it's an EF. Look, there isn't an adaptor for mounting the EF cinema glass.
 

HarryFilm

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Jun 6, 2016
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1080p is more than good enough for YouTube because most people view YouTube videos on phones or basic laptops, not like us photography nerds with nice 4k monitors. I make videos for YouTube as my main hobby and I shoot everything in 1080p even though I have a 4k camera because the files are easier to manage. I get much faster export times and upload times in 1080p than what I would get with 4k. Maybe someday I'll update my computer and internet service to a point where it wouldn't make a difference in processing and uploading, but for now 1080p is more than good enough for what I do. I do local news stuff so getting it out there quickly is more important than absolute quality. Nobody wants yesterdays news even if it's in 4k. As far as I know all the broadcast TV in my area is still 720p or 1080i and will probably be for some time.

8k is really for cinematic stuff at this point, stuff like movies in the theater and high end streaming to people with 8k TVs. It also helps with flexibility in editing, but again that's for the cinematic type of productions who have no issue with money for storage capacity and processing power.


---

As a videographer that has been shooting since the 1980's on Betacam SP and am now using multi-screen 12K cameras (Blackmagic Ursa 12k), the issue that has been the bane of digital video production since the EARLIEST days of 1990's-era editing using the earliest Video Toaster, AVID, Flame/Inferno, Lightworks, DPS Velocity non-linear editors, etc is the CODEC that was used on those systems (i.e. Compression/Decompression Algorithms) which squeezes video information down to manageable playback rates.

It was once just Cinepak, RealVideo, MPEG-1/2, Motion JPEG and other poor quality codecs that STILL got used because non-linear editing was SO MUCH EASIER than using the tape-based Edit-Droid or a Multi-Reel 16mm/35mm/70mm splicer deck (been there done that!)

Nowadays, we have H.265, MPEG-4 and Motion Wavelet algorithms to help us keep video somewhat small and manageable. ...BUT.... the problem is that our video files have gotten larger in frame size and longer in length because in the old days I only shot video at a 10:1 or 20:1 ratio of 480i or 1080p captured video hours versus final edited master tape hours.

In 2020, I am shooting to fill-up as many CF cards and SSDs as I can stuff in my camera bag and vest pockets! This means I am sometimes shooting the equivalent of 500 hours per final edited hour as my shooting ratio! This means I need a HECK of a lot more storage space!

Now I do have a solution for BOTH capture and playback and that is a technology created/patented in 1987 by Iterated Systems called a Fractal Codec which offered FANTASTIC by even today's H.265 standards of video compression image quality and size.

Fractal Compression has/had the MAIN ISSUE of where the compression time versus decompression time was asymmetric where it took up to 100 minutes to compress one minute of 30 fps 1080p video back in the 1990's. This made Fractal Codecs a non-starter in the professional production environment but very viable for the old CD-ROM/DVD playback systems because the fractal codec was FAST to decode therefore compression time was a non-issue for those types of video products!

Even today's H.265 Wavelet-like 12:1 compression ratios per high quality Intraframe is FAR SURPASSED by the 50:1 intraframe (i.e. i-frame) compression ratio of a high quality Fractal codec!

See background of Fractal Codec:


Due to a recent turn of events and the addition of new software technologies, a new product launch is happening in first quarter 2021 that will allow us to bring the 1987-era Fractal Codec up to the modern day standard of 64-bit RGBA colour 1:1 synchronous compression vs decompression time that is demanded by modern video production and playback environments.

Numerous OTHER companies offer a set of hardware-assisted Fractal codecs BUT ONLY ONE now offers software-based 1:1 Fractal compression and decompression for 64-bit RGBA/YCbCrA/HSLA bitmaps starting from 24 fps up to 1000 fps at DCI 2K, DCI 4K, DCI 8K and even DCI 16K video frame resolutions!

The future of Hollywood Production-quality Local-machine and Internet-based Video Compression and Decompression is a Fractal CODEC and it's here TODAY!

V
 

jvillain

EOS RP
Sep 29, 2018
239
175
1080p is more than good enough for YouTube because most people view YouTube videos on phones or basic laptops, not like us photography nerds with nice 4k monitors. I make videos for YouTube as my main hobby and I shoot everything in 1080p even though I have a 4k camera because the files are easier to manage. I get much faster export times and upload times in 1080p than what I would get with 4k. Maybe someday I'll update my computer and internet service to a point where it wouldn't make a difference in processing and uploading, but for now 1080p is more than good enough for what I do. I do local news stuff so getting it out there quickly is more important than absolute quality. Nobody wants yesterdays news even if it's in 4k. As far as I know all the broadcast TV in my area is still 720p or 1080i and will probably be for some time.

8k is really for cinematic stuff at this point, stuff like movies in the theater and high end streaming to people with 8k TVs. It also helps with flexibility in editing, but again that's for the cinematic type of productions who have no issue with money for storage capacity and processing power.

If you upload in a high resolution YT will re-encode your file into multiple lower res versions. So your cell phone can get a low res version and a 4K device will get a 4K one. I agree most OTA is still 720 or full HD in my area as well. But not many people watch OTA any more. More important though is that not many people use 8K cameras becuase they need to deliver 8K they do it to give themselves room to crop and because you usually end up with a better image if you down res an 8K image to 4K than you do if you shoot in native 4K. Having 8K can be really helpful in post especially if you are rotoscoping and compositing.

I just bought a 4K camcorder and my computer video max is 2560 X 1600. The computer is 10 years old and I think it's time to build a new one (or have one built). My television is the only thing I can play 4K on and, honestly, it doesn't look that much better than HD.

How it looks depends on your entire chain including how close you are to the screen and the size of the screen. I see a lot of people miss a piece and then wonder why their 4K looks like HD and that is usually because their 4K is being displayed as HD because they missed a piece of the chain. Having said that the big benifit of moving to 4K wasn't 4k. It was the ability to be able to produce and deliver in HDR.

If there's an off chance of an 8K resolution Blu-ray standard were to come out it would be released by year 2026. Optical discs since the DVD tend to have a 1 decade-long introduction cycle.

There is virtually no chance of that. The big players in the spinny disk market have mostly stopped producing players. They may come up with a new standard for physical home media delivery but I have my doubts. Pretty well no manufacturer has produced a player that fully implements the entire 4K UHD standard so I am having a hard time seeing 8K. The studios have rediscovered physical media as a way to mine their back catalogs as a way to make money now that Covid is hitting new releases. But once Covid is gone they will be back to trying to kill off physical media in favor of rent seeking.
 

HarryFilm

EOS RP
Jun 6, 2016
705
166
".... The big players in the spinny disk market have mostly stopped producing players. They may come up with a new standard for physical home media delivery but I have my doubts. Pretty well no manufacturer has produced a player that fully implements the entire 4K UHD standard so I am having a hard time seeing 8K. The studios have rediscovered physical media as a way to mine their back catalogs as a way to make money now that Covid is hitting new releases. ...."

---

Actually, I have heard some underground rumours that Sony, Samsung, Toshiba, Micron, NEC and IBM are cooperating on a NEW near-line storage standard that is MUCH CHEAPER than NAND memory chips (i.e. SSD Solid State Drive or common FLASH-based storage) but has enough speed to keep up with 8K video playback.

This new chip technology is called Resistive Random Access Memory (aka Re-RAM)

See background link:

and is the most promising new long-term storage memory that is INEXPENSIVE to make compared to SSD/NAND. If they encase each memory cell within a thin-film ultra high molecular weight polyethylene or the even cheaper polyvarathane insulator, the sneak path problem of electrical charge cross-talk becomes a thing of the past making this viable for long-term video, audio and end-user data storage!

When using thin-film plastic insulators to guard each single memory cell (or each grouped set of memory cells!), the up-to-40 nanosecond switch times is good enough for 8K video record/playback purposes AND can be stacked into 3D modules for up to terabyte densities per cubic CM! The long-term viability of such stored data is estimated to be over 200 years which makes this a viable medium for legacy data storage at multi-petabyte drive sizes!

So thin-film plastic-insulator encased Re-RAM memory cells MAY be the next solid state storage system to take the place of DVD/BluRay disc-based data storage.

YOU HEARD IT HERE FIRST!

V
 

dolina

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Dec 27, 2011
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There is virtually no chance of that. The big players in the spinny disk market have mostly stopped producing players. They may come up with a new standard for physical home media delivery but I have my doubts. Pretty well no manufacturer has produced a player that fully implements the entire 4K UHD standard so I am having a hard time seeing 8K. The studios have rediscovered physical media as a way to mine their back catalogs as a way to make money now that Covid is hitting new releases. But once Covid is gone they will be back to trying to kill off physical media in favor of rent seeking.
i agree with you. It’s a tough sell. Last disc I bought was in 2008.

Historically optical disc formats get a bump in install base when the PlayStation and even Xbox starts including them in their console so owners can have friction-less way to play 4k discs.

this time around Sony waited 4 years to out it in the PlayStation while Xbox had theirs in 2016 but it did not help any.

So it’s very possible that 8k bluray discs will never occur, but hoping that it does for video consoles owners as downloading 50-100GB games is shit.
 

Antono Refa

EOS R
Mar 26, 2014
1,212
362
I wonder what the market for 8K cine cameras is. I get the impression manufacturers are two steps ahead of the market.

After doing a short survey among friends and family, I realized I don't know anyone who owns a 4K TV or screen. At most, people told me when their TV dies, they'll buy a 4K TV. I posted on another thread a few weeks ago that 1080 is by far the most popular resolution on Amazon's 10 best selling monitors, and 10 best selling TVs. IIRC, someone noted studios are shooting 4K, downsample to 1080, and do the special effects in that resolution, as there's no sufficient incentive to do them in 4K. The Corona virus has hit movie theaters hard, I don't see studios making big investments in cameras & computing resources the near future.
 

dolina

millennial
Dec 27, 2011
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I wonder what the market for 8K cine cameras is. I get the impression manufacturers are two steps ahead of the market.

After doing a short survey among friends and family, I realized I don't know anyone who owns a 4K TV or screen. At most, people told me when their TV dies, they'll buy a 4K TV. I posted on another thread a few weeks ago that 1080 is by far the most popular resolution on Amazon's 10 best selling monitors, and 10 best selling TVs. IIRC, someone noted studios are shooting 4K, downsample to 1080, and do the special effects in that resolution, as there's no sufficient incentive to do them in 4K. The Corona virus has hit movie theaters hard, I don't see studios making big investments in cameras & computing resources the near future.
Enthusiasts/first adopters tend to get new tech when it becomes available. I bought myself a 4K OLED TV when Netflix became available in the Philippines.

If streaming in 4K was not available I would have waited for video console with 4K Blu-ray before upgrading.

Two years ago I visited family in Arizona. They were still on 1080p. Was surprised that they didnt have a 4K TV.

They told me that they'd only buy it when their TV conks out or when 8K comes out.

A lot of people prefer cheap or high utility tech than latest tech.
 
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BeenThere

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Sep 4, 2012
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Will theaters suffer the costs of upgrading to 8K projectors? A lot of small theaters went out of business when film reels were no longer available for new movies.
 

jvillain

EOS RP
Sep 29, 2018
239
175
I wonder what the market for 8K cine cameras is. I get the impression manufacturers are two steps ahead of the market.

After doing a short survey among friends and family, I realized I don't know anyone who owns a 4K TV or screen. At most, people told me when their TV dies, they'll buy a 4K TV. I posted on another thread a few weeks ago that 1080 is by far the most popular resolution on Amazon's 10 best selling monitors, and 10 best selling TVs. IIRC, someone noted studios are shooting 4K, downsample to 1080, and do the special effects in that resolution, as there's no sufficient incentive to do them in 4K. The Corona virus has hit movie theaters hard, I don't see studios making big investments in cameras & computing resources the near future.

I bought my 4K monitor almost 5 years ago and to buy a similar monitor today would cost more than it did then. Some thing weird is going on with the price of 4K monitors. When you can buy 55" 4K TV for less than a 28" 4K monitor some thing fishy is going on.
 

EOS 4 Life

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Sep 20, 2020
260
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Will theaters suffer the costs of upgrading to 8K projectors? A lot of small theaters went out of business when film reels were no longer available for new movies.
I think it will be like 3D where there will be non 8K versions at cheaper prices but they can charge more for 8K
 

Antono Refa

EOS R
Mar 26, 2014
1,212
362
Will theaters suffer the costs of upgrading to 8K projectors? A lot of small theaters went out of business when film reels were no longer available for new movies.

Film reels? Aren't movies distributed to movie theaters on hard drives? It takes them so long to arrive to Israel, I wonder whether they are sent by nuclear submarines.
 

BeenThere

EOS R
CR Pro
Sep 4, 2012
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Film reels? Aren't movies distributed to movie theaters on hard drives? It takes them so long to arrive to Israel, I wonder whether they are sent by nuclear submarines.
Right. My point is that when film reels were totally dropped by major motion picture companies (six or seven years ago in the U.S.), many mom and pop theaters could not afford to convert to digital 4K projection. It happened to the only theater in the small town where I resided.

Today, it’s quite possible that COVID is the death knell for most remaining small theaters.
 
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stevelee

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Jul 6, 2017
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I still prefer to get Blu-Ray discs from Netflix over watching the same material streamed. It looks better on my 1080p TV, and the discrete 5.1 usually sounds better in my audio system. OTA still looks better than the same channels on cable. It is not enough better to bother with most of the time, but I do have an indoor antenna hooked up to my TV. That was from when I could get a basketball game on an obscure sideband of a local station, but since ESPN+, I haven't needed to do that. For all practical purposes and maybe mathematical ones, 720p and 1080i are equivalent.

For in-home consumption, bit rate seems at least as important as resolution in terms of quality. Compression algorithms have gotten more sophisticated, but there still is some point of diminishing returns, at the very least, with having twice the resolution (supposedly) but more drastic compression to compensate. And YouTube mangles my videos in more ways than one when they process them. I was going to link to an example, but it is no longer there, I discovered. I bet I took it down because it was illustrative of the mangling. I had done a star time-lapse video with my G7X II to see how that worked. On YouTube, the night sky became a sick yellow.

I normally sit about two feet from my 5K computer screen, and almost 10 feet from the 46" 1080p TV in my family room. A larger TV would present more of a placement challenge, and I wonder about how well OLED would show up in the daytime. The room has 3 big windows looking into the woods. The birds and such are often more entertaining than the TV programs anyway. The 43" plasma set is in my bedroom and almost never turned on during daylight.
 

Darecinema

Addicted to lenses.
CR Pro
Sep 8, 2018
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While this is cool to be driving technology forward, I’d prefer an RF C500ii type camera with 120fps in 4K and the same C300iii DGO type sensor in full frame format. I have zero need for an 8K camera until I’m ready to film an IMAX documentary which would be epic!!!
 
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