Canon to Offer Global Shutter for 2.5k Video on an Upcoming DSLR? [CR1]

[HurtinMinorKey]

Remember, the c300 uses an 8K sensor and intelligently down-samples to 1080 in camera. So if we are only getting 2.5K reads off a sensor, then it's not like this "new camera" would necessarily be using as much or more image data.

Actually it's a 4K sensor downsampled in camera to 1080p.

I think i've made this mistake 100 times now. ;D You are correct, it's 8MP or 4K.

 

[leethecam]

Nice... but the reality is that most films shot on digital don't have the benefit of global shutter. The Sony D65 has no issues due to it being a CCD camera, and lately RED have introduced an option to combat the effects, but film favourites like the ARRI Alexa has no global shutter.

The reality is that you need to be careful with pans and moves, but shooting at 24 / 25p requires that anyway.

It's great to lose unwanted artifacts, but think about it... when was the last time in the last 2/3 years you sat through a film cursing the rolling shutter...?

 

[meauounji]

don't care for video, don't need or want "global shutter" in a DSLR.

You still get rolling shutter artifacts (skew) when taking pictures of fast moving objects.

Yes. It matters for still... a lot less, because the effect is less obvious in stills, but it does.

Personally, I don't believe the rumor. Canon hasn't "innovated" in the DSLR video space for a while. They've only ever made their video less crappy faster than other manufacturers over time. And I say this as a video guy who currently shoots with a 5D3, and also shot with a 7D and 5D2 when they were the bee's knees in video.

A brief timeline of video on Canon DSLRs:

The 5D2 gave us full frame video for the first time, but no manual audio, no manual exposure, no 24p and 30p wasn't even 29.97 like it should be. It suffered severely from moire, rolling shutter, and bad codec.

The 7D gave us 24p and manual exposure out of the box. It still suffered severely from Moire, rolling shutter, and bad codec.

The 5D2 Eventually got manual exposure, 24p and manual audio, but still suffered from severe moire, rolling shutter, and bad codec. Of course, nothing below the 7D was any better. Eventually, one of the rebels got an articulating screen, which is kind of nice.

Mind you, all these "problems" weren't problems on non-DSLR video cameras, so we're just bringing the cameras back toward "normal" not "good".

Then came the 5D3, which finally got rid of moire, at the cost of overall sharpness (again, I speak from personal experience) and slightly less bad (but still bad) rolling shutter and a slightly less bad (but still bad) recording codec. Worst, 5D3 has hugely ugly fixed pattern noises that were NOT present in either the 5D2 or 7D... progress. Oh, I guess I should give Canon some kudos for enabling clean HDMI out, but they weren't even close to first there, so to say they "innovated" that feature is stretching it a lot.

Around the same time, the 1DC was also announced. Its "innovation" being a 1DX with slightly beefier processors that can shoot cropped 8 megapixel (that's what 4K translates to) JPEGS at 24 frames a second. You could've predicted what the 1DC was going to be from the specs in the "development announcement" just by crunching the pixels processed per second number in the 1DX. I did, and the 1DC was an absolutely no-surprise camera for me.

That's it. That's all the "Innovation" they gave us so far, concerning DSLR video.

Not that the other manufacturers are doing much better, but to believe that all of a sudden, Canon is going to break new ground with not one but TWO features, one of which has only ever been seen in ONE digital cinema camera from a competitor? I don't think so. (By the way, that would be global shutter on CMOS sensor in Sony's F55, and I believe the "cost" of the technology was a half stop less sensitivity)

Would I dearly love Canon to do global shutter and 2.5k in a 1DX-2, 1DC-2, or even a 7D-2? Hell yes. If it comes with a good codec (and I mean 8-bit 4:2:2 in-camera minimum, 10-bit preferred) I would pay 10k for it in a heart beat. The amount of problems global shutter, better codec, and a sensible amount of resolution increase would MORE than justify the cost.

 

[meauounji]

Nice... but the reality is that most films shot on digital don't have the benefit of global shutter. The Sony D65 has no issues due to it being a CCD camera, and lately RED have introduced an option to combat the effects, but film favourites like the ARRI Alexa has no global shutter.

The reality is that you need to be careful with pans and moves, but shooting at 24 / 25p requires that anyway.

It's great to lose unwanted artifacts, but think about it... when was the last time in the last 2/3 years you sat through a film cursing the rolling shutter...?

Agree with most of what you said, except I'd say we tend not to notice rolling shutter in films at least partly because Alexa, RED, and other digital cinema cameras' rolling shutter artifact is less pronounced than in Canon DSLRs. I notice rolling shutter all the time when feature films insert GoPro or DSLR shots in the middle of a sequence.

Also, no to nit-pick, but Sony F65 actually has a CMOS sensor. It sometimes doesn't have rolling shutter because of an optional mechanical shutter system to combat the effect.

 

[roxics]

Also, no to nit-pick, but Sony F65 actually has a CMOS sensor. It sometimes doesn't have rolling shutter because of an optional mechanical shutter system to combat the effect.

Same being true with the Alexa Studio.

 

[leethecam]

Also, no to nit-pick, but Sony F65 actually has a CMOS sensor. It sometimes doesn't have rolling shutter because of an optional mechanical shutter system to combat the effect.

Same being true with the Alexa Studio.

You're quite right... sorry... I was thinking of the F35.

Arri are making great strides in camera development, although their recent lovely thing (the Amira,) is a heavy lump to carry about. I think I'd sometimes trade picture developments for some cameras we could more easily pop on our shoulders... ha.

 

[LetTheRightLensIn]

Remember, the c300 uses an 8K sensor and intelligently down-samples to 1080 in camera. So if we are only getting 2.5K reads off a sensor, then it's not like this "new camera" would necessarily be using as much or more image data.

Actually it's a 4K sensor downsampled in camera to 1080p.

I think i've made this mistake 100 times now. ;D You are correct, it's 8MP or 4K.

But it's bayer though so it's not really true full color per pixel 4k sensor at all.

 

[weixing]

Hi,

don't care for video, don't need or want "global shutter" in a DSLR.

You still get rolling shutter artifacts (skew) when taking pictures of fast moving objects.

Yes. It matters for still... a lot less, because the effect is less obvious in stills, but it does.

Personally, I don't believe the rumor. Canon hasn't "innovated" in the DSLR video space for a while. They've only ever made their video less crappy faster than other manufacturers over time. And I say this as a video guy who currently shoots with a 5D3, and also shot with a 7D and 5D2 when they were the bee's knees in video.

A brief timeline of video on Canon DSLRs:

The 5D2 gave us full frame video for the first time, but no manual audio, no manual exposure, no 24p and 30p wasn't even 29.97 like it should be. It suffered severely from moire, rolling shutter, and bad codec.

The 7D gave us 24p and manual exposure out of the box. It still suffered severely from Moire, rolling shutter, and bad codec.

The 5D2 Eventually got manual exposure, 24p and manual audio, but still suffered from severe moire, rolling shutter, and bad codec. Of course, nothing below the 7D was any better. Eventually, one of the rebels got an articulating screen, which is kind of nice.

Mind you, all these "problems" weren't problems on non-DSLR video cameras, so we're just bringing the cameras back toward "normal" not "good".

Then came the 5D3, which finally got rid of moire, at the cost of overall sharpness (again, I speak from personal experience) and slightly less bad (but still bad) rolling shutter and a slightly less bad (but still bad) recording codec. Worst, 5D3 has hugely ugly fixed pattern noises that were NOT present in either the 5D2 or 7D... progress. Oh, I guess I should give Canon some kudos for enabling clean HDMI out, but they weren't even close to first there, so to say they "innovated" that feature is stretching it a lot.

Around the same time, the 1DC was also announced. Its "innovation" being a 1DX with slightly beefier processors that can shoot cropped 8 megapixel (that's what 4K translates to) JPEGS at 24 frames a second. You could've predicted what the 1DC was going to be from the specs in the "development announcement" just by crunching the pixels processed per second number in the 1DX. I did, and the 1DC was an absolutely no-surprise camera for me.

That's it. That's all the "Innovation" they gave us so far, concerning DSLR video.

Not that the other manufacturers are doing much better, but to believe that all of a sudden, Canon is going to break new ground with not one but TWO features, one of which has only ever been seen in ONE digital cinema camera from a competitor? I don't think so. (By the way, that would be global shutter on CMOS sensor in Sony's F55, and I believe the "cost" of the technology was a half stop less sensitivity)

Would I dearly love Canon to do global shutter and 2.5k in a 1DX-2, 1DC-2, or even a 7D-2? Hell yes. If it comes with a good codec (and I mean 8-bit 4:2:2 in-camera minimum, 10-bit preferred) I would pay 10k for it in a heart beat. The amount of problems global shutter, better codec, and a sensible amount of resolution increase would MORE than justify the cost.

Then why use DSLR for video?? Just use a non DSLR video camera.

Have a nice day.

 

[mkabi]

Global Shutter already exists...

... Blackmagic's 4K camera (EF mount compatible)
... RED Motion Mount
... Sony IMX174
... Sony F55

Given the Blackmagic camera, why would you wait for Canon to release something?
Thus maybe the "sell off" is due to people moving to Blackmagic?

Hmmmm... is the blackmagic 4K available?
I always thought its in pre-order indefinitely.

 

[flowers]

I'm happy ;D
I'm not a DR guy, I light the sh!t out of my scenes

Rolling shutter means you can never pan with your camera when shooting video. Ever. It sucks so bad I can't believe the DLSR video revolution ever happened

How fast are your pans?

+1!
Normal pans are possible. I don't know why anyone needs those crazy whip pans, they make me feel nauseous. Even so, I rarely use pans. If you shoot like Sam Raimi, get a global shutter.

 

[Rienzphotoz]

Intersting ... learned something new about Global Shutter ... cool 8)

 

[mkabi]

Global Shutter already exists...

... Blackmagic's 4K camera (EF mount compatible)
... RED Motion Mount
... Sony IMX174
... Sony F55

Given the Blackmagic camera, why would you wait for Canon to release something?
Thus maybe the "sell off" is due to people moving to Blackmagic?

Hmmmm... is the blackmagic 4K available?
I always thought its in pre-order indefinitely.

http://www.luminous-landscape.com/essays/why_4k_matters.shtml

http://www.luminous-landscape.com/reviews/camcorders/bmcc_first_impressions.shtml

The 2.5K camera (US$1995, available now) with EF Mount:
http://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/product/855879-REG/Blackmagic_Design_BMD_CINECAM26KEF_Cinema_Camera.html

The 4K camera (US$3995, pre-order) with EF Mount:
http://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/product/964119-REG/blackmagic_design_blackmagic_production_camera_4k.html

So it is quite possible that people are already selling off Canon DSLRs to buy the Blackmagic camera above that is already available, works with EF lenses, to shoot 2.5K video.

The boat, well, it's already set sail...

Whats the point of announcing a 4K camera if its never going to release? Almost a year, and other people are announcing their own 4K cameras.

You are right... I would buy a 2.5K Blackmagic Camera if it didn't have its own inherent problems.
-It has a crop factor of 2. My 50mm = 100mm, my 16-35mm = 32-70mm so on and so forth.
-It records to SSD, but it heats up when its full?
-2.5K in RAW only, so a 256Gb = 30 min, and I'm burning my fingers every 30 min.

But reality is... no camera is perfect. I bet if they released the Blackmagic 4K tomorrow... it would have its own problems too.

 

[meauounji]

Then why use DSLR for video?? Just use a non DSLR video camera.

Have a nice day.

- I like full frame video.

- Best selection of fast and wide lenses for the money. (There are no 24mm f1.4 equivalent in APS-C for less than many, many thousands of dollars)

- I also shoot stills and the 5D3 is a really good stills camera.

- Size/weight/flexibility in rigging.

- Now raw video in full frame. Impossible on any other camera. (for now)

- Overall good balance of price/performance.


There're lots of reasons to shoot DSLR video. But not because it has the best video quality.

You have a nice day, too

 

[crazyrunner33]

Global shutter is nice, but isn't absolutely necessary. I just hope the camera doesn't line skip and has a CFast card slot, then let Magic Lantern take care of the rest.

 

[Niki]

Then why use DSLR for video?? Just use a non DSLR video camera.

Have a nice day.

- I like full frame video.

- Best selection of fast and wide lenses for the money. (There are no 24mm f1.4 equivalent in APS-C for less than many, many thousands of dollars)

- I also shoot stills and the 5D3 is a really good stills camera.

- Size/weight/flexibility in rigging.

- Now raw video in full frame. Impossible on any other camera. (for now)

- Overall good balance of price/performance.


There're lots of reasons to shoot DSLR video. But not because it has the best video quality.

You have a nice day, too

+1

 

[flowers]

Then why use DSLR for video?? Just use a non DSLR video camera.

Have a nice day.

- I like full frame video.

- Best selection of fast and wide lenses for the money. (There are no 24mm f1.4 equivalent in APS-C for less than many, many thousands of dollars)

- I also shoot stills and the 5D3 is a really good stills camera.

- Size/weight/flexibility in rigging.

- Now raw video in full frame. Impossible on any other camera. (for now)

- Overall good balance of price/performance.


There're lots of reasons to shoot DSLR video. But not because it has the best video quality.

You have a nice day, too

+1, totally agree!

 

[WPJ]

Not knowing what a "Global Shutter" is - what would the implications of this be if (hypothetically), it was launched on the (to be named) 7D update? Is there any benefit to the stills photography world or is it purely a video thing?

It's a purely video thing. The global shutter is the opposite of the rolling shutter. In live view, the physical shutter doesn't move, so the sensor scans the scene 24 or 30 times a second to create frames.

With a rolling shutter, the sensor scans from top to bottom, creating a distortion effect if you pan the camera, because the sensor doesn't actually capture every part of the image at the exact same time.

A global shutter captures the entire image at once, then waits 1/24 of a second before doing it again, so the distortion, or the "rolling shutter effect" is not present. Global shutters are harder and more expensive to incorporate, as the camera has to process large amounts of data at once, in a small period of time.

For still photography using a physical shutter, it makes no difference.

wow could it also increase fps bigger data pipe, faster CPU, 60fps smiles...we would need terabyte cards...

 

[WPJ]

Then why use DSLR for video?? Just use a non DSLR video camera.

Have a nice day.

- I like full frame video.

- Best selection of fast and wide lenses for the money. (There are no 24mm f1.4 equivalent in APS-C for less than many, many thousands of dollars)

- I also shoot stills and the 5D3 is a really good stills camera.

- Size/weight/flexibility in rigging.

- Now raw video in full frame. Impossible on any other camera. (for now)

- Overall good balance of price/performance.


There're lots of reasons to shoot DSLR video. But not because it has the best video quality.

You have a nice day, too

who has full frame video as in I mean full pixel count its all down sampled. Full red I guess would rock...

 

[flowers]

FF video

who has full frame video as in I mean full pixel count its all down sampled. Full red I guess would rock...

FF video means that when you stick a 24/1.4 lens on your camera, you get a horizontal AOV of 73.74° and a DOF of f/1.4 at 24mm. That will affect the perspective. If you want practical numbers, if your subject is 2 meters away, your horizontal coverage (how much you see to the sides of your subject) is 3 meters. If you put the same lens on a RED camera, you get a horizontal AOV of 53.89°. This means that you'll only capture 2.03m of the environment horizontally if your subject is 2 meters away. This will look different. The chair on the left of the subject and the hanging tree branch to the right of your subject that were visible in the frame when you used the lens on FF are not visible on your RED camera. The DOF will also be different (deeper) on RED. Also, it's not "down sampled", it's line skipped. The full sensor is used, but only 1080 vertical lines are read out of all the vertical lines to get 1080 resolution video, likewise for horizontal (1920).

 

[AvTvM]

- I like full frame video.
- Best selection of fast and wide lenses for the money. (There are no 24mm f1.4 equivalent in APS-C for less than many, many thousands of dollars)
...
- Size/weight/flexibility in rigging.
- Now raw video in full frame. Impossible on any other camera. (for now)

The Canon Cx00 series can all use EF lenses/ For raw video, Canon has C-Log.
Rigging is much the same once you get truely serious.

+1