Canon won't offer a high megapixel body

[unfocused]

Well, that should stir things up a bit.

Here's the setup: Phase One and Hasselblad have announced 50 mp sensors for their large format (I really don't feel that we can refer to these as "medium" format anymore) cameras.

Some may see this as a sign that Canon "must" now offer a high megapixel sensor. I think just the opposite.

We have discussed to the point of nausea the idea that the larger sensor size of "full frame" cameras will always outperform APS-C. So the same principle applies here. There is simply no way that a DSLR sensor can match the performance of these large format sensors. Scale up a 19 mp APS-C sensor and you get to just under 50 mp., so you are talking about pixel density somewhere between that of the 7D and 70D to match the new 50 mp of these large format cameras.

If Canon cannot compete on quality, they can only compete on price. So, then the question becomes, what percentage of the large format market is price sensitive? I'm guessing that few current users of either Phase One or Hasselblad would be convinced to switch based on pricing. That, in turn, leaves the sales potential only for new users. The point is we are talking about a niche, within a niche, within a niche.

Now, if Canon were to take one of their APS-C sensors and simply scale it up to full frame they might be able to keep their development costs down, but would it be low enough to turn a profit on the body? I don't know. And, you'd have to account for the extra waste that would occur with the larger sensors.

All in all, I'm thinking that a high megapixel body is becoming less and less appealing for manufacturers.

Let the flame wars begin!!!

 

[Don Haines]

Well, that should stir things up a bit.

Here's the setup: Phase One and Hasselblad have announced 50 mp sensors for their large format (I really don't feel that we can refer to these as "medium" format anymore) cameras.

Some may see this as a sign that Canon "must" now offer a high megapixel sensor. I think just the opposite.

We have discussed to the point of nausea the idea that the larger sensor size of "full frame" cameras will always outperform APS-C. So the same principle applies here. There is simply no way that a DSLR sensor can match the performance of these large format sensors. Scale up a 19 mp APS-C sensor and you get to just under 50 mp., so you are talking about pixel density somewhere between that of the 7D and 70D to match the new 50 mp of these large format cameras.

If Canon cannot compete on quality, they can only compete on price. So, then the question becomes, what percentage of the large format market is price sensitive? I'm guessing that few current users of either Phase One or Hasselblad would be convinced to switch based on pricing. That, in turn, leaves the sales potential only for new users. The point is we are talking about a niche, within a niche, within a niche.

Now, if Canon were to take one of their APS-C sensors and simply scale it up to full frame they might be able to keep their development costs down, but would it be low enough to turn a profit on the body? I don't know. And, you'd have to account for the extra waste that would occur with the larger sensors.

All in all, I'm thinking that a high megapixel body is becoming less and less appealing for manufacturers.

Let the flame wars begin!!!

I don't agree 100 percent, but I do mostly agree...

FF beats APS-C for IQ due to the larger pizel size..... Always has, always will....
Large format beats FF for the exact same reasons...

but I do think that in the continual quest for more pixels that we will end up with a high megapixel FF camera that has similar pixel size and IQ to that of APS-C....

 

[CarlTN]

Well, that should stir things up a bit.

Here's the setup: Phase One and Hasselblad have announced 50 mp sensors for their large format (I really don't feel that we can refer to these as "medium" format anymore) cameras.

Some may see this as a sign that Canon "must" now offer a high megapixel sensor. I think just the opposite.

We have discussed to the point of nausea the idea that the larger sensor size of "full frame" cameras will always outperform APS-C. So the same principle applies here. There is simply no way that a DSLR sensor can match the performance of these large format sensors. Scale up a 19 mp APS-C sensor and you get to just under 50 mp., so you are talking about pixel density somewhere between that of the 7D and 70D to match the new 50 mp of these large format cameras.

If Canon cannot compete on quality, they can only compete on price. So, then the question becomes, what percentage of the large format market is price sensitive? I'm guessing that few current users of either Phase One or Hasselblad would be convinced to switch based on pricing. That, in turn, leaves the sales potential only for new users. The point is we are talking about a niche, within a niche, within a niche.

Now, if Canon were to take one of their APS-C sensors and simply scale it up to full frame they might be able to keep their development costs down, but would it be low enough to turn a profit on the body? I don't know. And, you'd have to account for the extra waste that would occur with the larger sensors.

All in all, I'm thinking that a high megapixel body is becoming less and less appealing for manufacturers.

Let the flame wars begin!!!

I disagree about renaming medium format "large format". Also disagree if your premise is that Canon will not go up on the pixel count of full frame cameras. Whether or not that goes as high as 50MP (actually your premise), I can more agree with you on. It's entirely possible that the next FF body will have less than 50MP.

I thought Canon was developing their own medium format cameras and sensors to compete with the others anyway...or else they were considering partnering with one of them. Has that rumor been debunked or something?

Out of curiousity, do you own any MF digital cameras now?

 

[9VIII]

Well, that should stir things up a bit.

Here's the setup: Phase One and Hasselblad have announced 50 mp sensors for their large format (I really don't feel that we can refer to these as "medium" format anymore) cameras.

Some may see this as a sign that Canon "must" now offer a high megapixel sensor. I think just the opposite.

We have discussed to the point of nausea the idea that the larger sensor size of "full frame" cameras will always outperform APS-C. So the same principle applies here. There is simply no way that a DSLR sensor can match the performance of these large format sensors. Scale up a 19 mp APS-C sensor and you get to just under 50 mp., so you are talking about pixel density somewhere between that of the 7D and 70D to match the new 50 mp of these large format cameras.

If Canon cannot compete on quality, they can only compete on price. So, then the question becomes, what percentage of the large format market is price sensitive? I'm guessing that few current users of either Phase One or Hasselblad would be convinced to switch based on pricing. That, in turn, leaves the sales potential only for new users. The point is we are talking about a niche, within a niche, within a niche.

Now, if Canon were to take one of their APS-C sensors and simply scale it up to full frame they might be able to keep their development costs down, but would it be low enough to turn a profit on the body? I don't know. And, you'd have to account for the extra waste that would occur with the larger sensors.

All in all, I'm thinking that a high megapixel body is becoming less and less appealing for manufacturers.

Let the flame wars begin!!!

I don't agree 100 percent, but I do mostly agree...

FF beats APS-C for IQ due to the larger pixel size..... Always has, always will....
Large format beats FF for the exact same reasons...

but I do think that in the continual quest for more pixels that we will end up with a high megapixel FF camera that has similar pixel size and IQ to that of APS-C....

It's not the "pixel size", it's the "sensor size" that matters. That 50MP full frame body on the lens shown below would give absolutely incredible IQ.

http://www.the-digital-picture.com/Reviews/ISO-12233-Sample-Crops.aspx?Lens=458&Camera=819&Sample=0&FLI=0&API=4&LensComp=458&CameraComp=845&SampleComp=0&FLIComp=0&APIComp=4

Would I rather have a medium format Canon though? For the right price, yes. I would rather have a medium format 1D than a 1Dx (or 1Dxs), for example.

 

[jdramirez]

I am so tired about arguing about cameras... I need a new hobby. Is cheating on your side considered a hobby? Regardless, it will be cheaper than my photography hobby.

 

[unfocused]

I am so tired about arguing about cameras... I need a new hobby. Is cheating on your side considered a hobby? Regardless, it will be cheaper than my photography hobby.

You can be like Edward (Weston) and have both.

 

[keithcooper]

... Scale up a 19 mp APS-C sensor and you get to just under 50 mp., so you are talking about pixel density somewhere between that of the 7D and 70D to match the new 50 mp of these large format cameras....

Let the flame wars begin!!!

Or even let some more accurate maths begin... ;-)

The new MF sensor is the same size (44x33mm) as the Pentax 645D and 1.68x the area of FF 35mm, which is itself 2.6 times (Canon) APS-C.

The new MF chip is roughly equivalent pixel density to an ~12MP APS-C sensor or ~30MP full frame.

So, the new 50MP sensor has about the same pixel density as the 2008 450D (XSi) or to put it another way, scaling the ubiquitous Canon 18MP APS-C sensor to 44x33mm gives ~78MP

I've more comprehensive sensor size info on the Canon MF page at
http://www.northlight-images.co.uk/canon_medium_format_2ff.html

 

[klickflip]

They will definitely, the main reason - Phase one and Hasselblad have announced 50MP Cmos sensors which are presumably made by Sony, it could be someone else like Dalsa but bets are on Sony with their 36MP tech it seems very plausible.

So the gauntlet is really down in Cmos 50MP land for canon to respond, I imagine Canon have something nearly ready by now and this may spur them to push it out quicker which would be nice.. or canon may have to buy off Sony to keep in the game.

Now MF is a different kettle of fish, and this could really help MF regain some ground back to DSLRs with quicker capture and higher iso, a much more versatile camera, though AF still is years behind basic canons & nikons.
And this could bring costs down but I wound't imagine too much.

Large format is another thing altogether so please don't try to redefine them. Having a plate camera with lens movements is the key. I've always foreseen that sensor tech will catch up and one day we will get 5x4 or at least 7x9 backs for 5x4 systems.

 

[ksagomonyants]

Well, that should stir things up a bit.

Here's the setup: Phase One and Hasselblad have announced 50 mp sensors for their large format (I really don't feel that we can refer to these as "medium" format anymore) cameras.

Where did you get the information that Hasselblad had announced 50 MP medium format sensor? As far as I know, it's a CMOS censor that will appear in their new body.

 

[Lichtgestalt]

problems is that all points in the direction that canon will release a high megapixel body.
so why such a thread?

the speculation is pretty useless when all kind of sources say otherwise.

 

[ajfotofilmagem]

The image quality produced by current full frame sensor is higher (in some respects) film used in the medium format cameras. I think who needs the best tonal gradation and contrast should still use film, but in all other aspects of quality, full frame sensors take advantage.

Why then use larger sensors like the Hasselblad? Because of the spectacular sharpness Giant prints. Those photographers do not printing on high quality paper, giant size, not need sensor larger than full frame. Another thing to consider is that medium format 50 megapixel sensors have spectacular picture in low ISO, but they take a nasty beating from 1Dx in ISO1600.

I do not see a big enough market for medium format cameras, and another line of lenses for Canon to be profitable. But is there a market for 50 megapixel full frame cameras? I believe there is not today. Maybe in the future when the line of L lenses is renewed, will be incentive to produce ultra high resolution cameras.

We have to face the reality of D800/D800E that sell relatively little. Users of current full frame cameras have become accustomed to shooting at ISO3200 and have good quality pictures. It would be a retrograde step if a full frame 50 megapixel camera produces noise nuisance in ISO3200.

It seems that this is the dilemma of Canon this time. Not sounds like a good idea to repeat the mistakes of D800/D800E. One option would be to make a camera 40+ megapixel for Studio specific, optimized for low ISO, and limited to ISO 800, ISO expanded to 1600. Thus would be quite clear that this camera aims to compete with medium format, not 1Dx.

 

[Stu_bert]

Well, that should stir things up a bit.

Here's the setup: Phase One and Hasselblad have announced 50 mp sensors for their large format (I really don't feel that we can refer to these as "medium" format anymore) cameras.

Where did you get the information that Hasselblad had announced 50 MP medium format sensor? As far as I know, it's a CMOS censor that will appear in their new body.

flip over to lu-la (luminous landscape). Both the Phase One and Hassy use the Sony 50mp CMOS sensor...

 

[unfocused]

... Scale up a 19 mp APS-C sensor and you get to just under 50 mp., so you are talking about pixel density somewhere between that of the 7D and 70D to match the new 50 mp of these large format cameras....

Let the flame wars begin!!!

Or even let some more accurate maths begin... ;-)

The new MF sensor is the same size (44x33mm) as the Pentax 645D and 1.68x the area of FF 35mm, which is itself 2.6 times (Canon) APS-C.

The new MF chip is roughly equivalent pixel density to an ~12MP APS-C sensor or ~30MP full frame.

So, the new 50MP sensor has about the same pixel density as the 2008 450D (XSi) or to put it another way, scaling the ubiquitous Canon 18MP APS-C sensor to 44x33mm gives ~78MP

I've more comprehensive sensor size info on the Canon MF page at
http://www.northlight-images.co.uk/canon_medium_format_2ff.html

Maybe I misunderstand, but I think we are saying essentially the same thing.

My point was simply that to get to 50mp on a full frame DSLR, you end up with a density similar to Canon's current APS-C sensors. If I understand your point, it's that the new 50mp sensor will have a density similar to the 450D.

In the end, isn't the point really that the new offerings will have significant advantages over full frame due to the reduced density/larger pixels.

 

[unfocused]

problems is that all points in the direction that canon will release a high megapixel body.
so why such a thread?

the speculation is pretty useless when all kind of sources say otherwise.

Because rumors aren't announcements and sources aren't always reliable. In the end, every product must find a market. No market. No product.

I think this reduces the market. Others may disagree. That's "why such a thread."

 

[ksagomonyants]

Isn't it 33x44 sensor? If so, you can hardly name this a medium format sensor. This is the same size as the one in Pentax 645d for ~$7k. If you crop a little, it'll be the same size as Nikon d800 or Sony a7r. Considering how close Pentax 645d to Nikon d800 in terms of the IQ, I'm surprised that Hasselblad and Phase One are releasing the cropped medium format camera, which will probably cost 10 times as much as Nikon d800.

Well, that should stir things up a bit.

Here's the setup: Phase One and Hasselblad have announced 50 mp sensors for their large format (I really don't feel that we can refer to these as "medium" format anymore) cameras.

Where did you get the information that Hasselblad had announced 50 MP medium format sensor? As far as I know, it's a CMOS censor that will appear in their new body.

flip over to lu-la (luminous landscape). Both the Phase One and Hassy use the Sony 50mp CMOS sensor...

 

[RGF]

All in all, I'm thinking that a high megapixel body is becoming less and less appealing for manufacturers.

You are thinking rationally. Forget logic, forget rational thinking.

If the manufacturers believe that such a camera will it sell or help the credentials of their current line up, then they will make it.

Whether it is the best camera, whether it offers any new over current models has little importance.

The key question for Canon (I think, I am not an insider) will be will it be profitable and will it be accretive to margins.

 

[Bruce Photography]

It seems that this is the dilemma of Canon this time. Not sounds like a good idea to repeat the mistakes of D800/D800E.

I tried my best not to contribute to this thread until I read this quote. What mistakes of the D800/D800E are you talking about? Do you own either camera? I do and I would be jumping for joy if Canon can come even somewhere close to the performance of the D800E because I could then use my Canon lenses again. If I knew today that Canon would not ever produce a full frame high MP camera I would start dumping all my Canon equipment. But I live with the belief that Canon is just a little slow in getting up to speed on high MP full frame sensors because the ROI is not as high as their high priced cinema gamble. The future is hard to predict but it will come. It is just a matter of when. Meanwhile I am not buying any new Canon equipment until they have a camera for my landscape business that is at least as good as my almost flawless D800 and D800E cameras. I wait.

 

[ajfotofilmagem]

It seems that this is the dilemma of Canon this time. Not sounds like a good idea to repeat the mistakes of D800/D800E.

I tried my best not to contribute to this thread until I read this quote. What mistakes of the D800/D800E are you talking about? Do you own either camera? I do and I would be jumping for joy if Canon can come even somewhere close to the performance of the D800E because I could then use my Canon lenses again. If I knew today that Canon would not ever produce a full frame high MP camera I would start dumping all my Canon equipment. But I live with the belief that Canon is just a little slow in getting up to speed on high MP full frame sensors because the ROI is not as high as their high priced cinema gamble. The future is hard to predict but it will come. It is just a matter of when. Meanwhile I am not buying any new Canon equipment until they have a camera for my landscape business that is at least as good as my almost flawless D800 and D800E cameras. I wait.

I referred to the niche market where D800, and even more D800E, are advantageous for buyers. This is the problem. There are few buyers who consider D800/D800E more desirable than the Canon options. Actually, 5D mark iii encountered a very wide audience to which its feature set looks more advantageous. I'm sure Nikon DF is the ideal camera for some people, but how many people are these?

 

[9VIII]

If I knew today that Canon would not ever produce a full frame high MP camera I would start dumping all my Canon equipment.

I'm in pretty much the same boat. Everything but the 400f5.6 and 7D2 (when it comes).

 

[jdramirez]

If I knew today that Canon would not ever produce a full frame high MP camera I would start dumping all my Canon equipment.

I'm in pretty much the same boat. Everything but the 400f5.6 and 7D2 (when it comes).

For studio work? I just presume that pixel density will require a decrease in high iso performance... consequently... you are shooting in daylight or in studio.

I really would doubt anyone would want to pay $4000ish for a body as an all round body and try and shoot in low light at high iso with the grain comparable to a crop sensor. It doesn't make a whole heck of a lot of sense.