Canon's Blue Spectrum Refractive Element

Re: Canon Develops New Camera-Lens Optical Element

keriboi said:
Why all the trouble? isnt CA fixed one click in photoshop?

Yours is a legitimate question, but one that has been addressed in this discussion thread. I will explain again:

Chromatic aberration in photographic lenses for consumer use can be broadly classified into two types: transverse and longitudinal. Nearly all such lenses exhibit some degree of both to varying extent and in varying combinations.

The transverse type of aberration occurs when the image magnification of the lens is a function of the wavelength of light. That is to say, the apparent focal length of the lens is not precisely the same for different colors of incoming light. This leads to color fringing that increases in severity as one goes from the image center to the image periphery.

The longitudinal type of aberration occurs when the plane of sharpest focus is a function of the wavelength of light. That is to say, one range of the color spectrum are in focus at one subject distance but other colors will be in focus at other subject distances; or even worse, one portion of the spectrum is in acceptable focus but other colors may not achieve acceptable focus anywhere. This leads to color fringing that is generally uniform in severity across the image plane, but tends to be reduced by stopping down, since the effect of a high f-number is to increase the depth of field, thereby permitting the planes of sharpest focus to overlap each other throughout the visible spectrum.

Generally it is easier to correct the first type in post processing, if the characteristics of the aberration are measured for the lens that created the image. This is because in this type, the plane of sharpest focus is the same, the aberration is independent of f-number, and the extent of aberration is not dependent on the subject-camera distance. The basic method of correction is to apply an inverse scaling transformation of image pixels as a function of their color.

The second type is very difficult if not impossible to correct adequately in post processing, primarily for the same reason that it is not generally possible to correct for missed focus. Deconvolution or various other sharpening algorithms may work partially, but these generally create unpleasant visual artifacts. The essential information has been lost: you can't de-blur what is blurry without more information about how the light entered the lens, and this information is dependent on the distance of the subject to the camera, as well as numerous other factors. Efforts to correct longitudinal chromatic aberration have largely focused on attempting to process out the color fringing as they register in the image file, rather than trying to model the behavior of the lens. Sometimes this works convincingly well. But it isn't really a substitute for designing the lens to avoid such aberrations.

The takeaway is that chromatic aberration occurs whenever a lens is designed in a way that causes an image point to be spread out as a function of the wavelength of light. If you've ever seen the OLAF test images produced by LensRentals, this is exactly what it will show: A collimated white light source is projected through the lens and a spot is produced that is very rarely just a white smear (let alone a white dot). It's almost always a multicolored pattern, which shows the presence of complex chromatic aberrations. See here:

http://www.lensrentals.com/blog/2014/04/olafs-lens-art
 
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Re: Canon Develops New Camera-Lens Optical Element

Mt Spokane Photography said:
NancyP said:
"Organic" just means that there's a carbon atom in there somewhere - as opposed to a purely silicon-based compound (standard glass). I wouldn't make any assumption about the longevity of the organic lens material.

The life of a "Organic Material" is the first thing that came to mind. The varied extreme environments that lenses go thru is pretty tough on organic materials like the greases and lubricants, but they seem to have solved that issue.

Fortunately, accelerated life tests for such materials can predict the life fairly accurately. I've done a lot of that type of testing. Manufacturers of such compounds tend to exaggerate, but a good test reveals all.

My god! Refractive Blue is made out of PEOPLE! (said in a Charlton Heston voice)
 
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Re: Canon Develops New Camera-Lens Optical Element

ScottyP said:
Mt Spokane Photography said:
NancyP said:
"Organic" just means that there's a carbon atom in there somewhere - as opposed to a purely silicon-based compound (standard glass). I wouldn't make any assumption about the longevity of the organic lens material.

The life of a "Organic Material" is the first thing that came to mind. The varied extreme environments that lenses go thru is pretty tough on organic materials like the greases and lubricants, but they seem to have solved that issue.

Fortunately, accelerated life tests for such materials can predict the life fairly accurately. I've done a lot of that type of testing. Manufacturers of such compounds tend to exaggerate, but a good test reveals all.

My god! Refractive Blue is made out of PEOPLE! (said in a Charlton Heston voice)

;D
 
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Re: Canon Develops New Camera-Lens Optical Element

chromophore said:
jrista said:
chromophore said:
A final comment about the nature of lens design: it is always a game of balancing out compromises. What you gain in one area (say, center resolution) is always at the expense of some other constraint (e.g., corner resolution). A good design either intentionally optimizes in one area and sacrifices another to be a specialist design (85/1.2L II), or it tries to achieve a balance across the board (24-70/2.8L II). If "BR" works as well as it does, this in theory would permit the lens design to be less constrained in other ways. The more tools in a lens designer's toolbox, the more they can do to improve overall performance. So if he/she can correct axial color more effectively and gain apochromatic performance with this technology, this allows more of the other elements of the lens to be devoted to things like correcting comatic aberration, for example. It's a gross simplification but that is the essence of how lenses are designed.

This is SO not true. Just look at all of Canon's latest lens designs. And many of Nikon's latest. And Zeiss' Otus. There is absolutely no requirement that tradeoffs MUST be made in order to improve something in a lens. Canon's recent optics have been improving both center and corner performance simultaneously. Corner performance in particular has been improving considerably. Just look at the MTF of the new 35mm f/1.4 II. Improvement across the board, radical improvement in the corners.

This is naive and archaic thinking. Tradeoffs are made FOR COST, not because they MUST be made. If cost is no issue, then there is no reason to accept any tradeoff. The Otus line, for example, comes very close to delivering optimal performance from corner to edge, with only a slight loss in PSF quality in the corners.

The cost factor is assumed because it is the only constraint that differentiates lenses into broad performance classes.

That is not what you wrote. You clearly, and with added emphasis via bolding, stated there is ALWAYS a tradoff that must be made. That is simply not true.
 
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Re: Canon Develops New Camera-Lens Optical Element

ScottyP said:
Mt Spokane Photography said:
NancyP said:
"Organic" just means that there's a carbon atom in there somewhere - as opposed to a purely silicon-based compound (standard glass). I wouldn't make any assumption about the longevity of the organic lens material.

The life of a "Organic Material" is the first thing that came to mind. The varied extreme environments that lenses go thru is pretty tough on organic materials like the greases and lubricants, but they seem to have solved that issue.

Fortunately, accelerated life tests for such materials can predict the life fairly accurately. I've done a lot of that type of testing. Manufacturers of such compounds tend to exaggerate, but a good test reveals all.

My god! Refractive Blue is made out of PEOPLE! (said in a Charlton Heston voice)

;D
 
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Re: Canon Develops New Camera-Lens Optical Element

jrista said:
chromophore said:
jrista said:
chromophore said:
A final comment about the nature of lens design: it is always a game of balancing out compromises. What you gain in one area (say, center resolution) is always at the expense of some other constraint (e.g., corner resolution). A good design either intentionally optimizes in one area and sacrifices another to be a specialist design (85/1.2L II), or it tries to achieve a balance across the board (24-70/2.8L II). If "BR" works as well as it does, this in theory would permit the lens design to be less constrained in other ways. The more tools in a lens designer's toolbox, the more they can do to improve overall performance. So if he/she can correct axial color more effectively and gain apochromatic performance with this technology, this allows more of the other elements of the lens to be devoted to things like correcting comatic aberration, for example. It's a gross simplification but that is the essence of how lenses are designed.

This is SO not true. Just look at all of Canon's latest lens designs. And many of Nikon's latest. And Zeiss' Otus. There is absolutely no requirement that tradeoffs MUST be made in order to improve something in a lens. Canon's recent optics have been improving both center and corner performance simultaneously. Corner performance in particular has been improving considerably. Just look at the MTF of the new 35mm f/1.4 II. Improvement across the board, radical improvement in the corners.

This is naive and archaic thinking. Tradeoffs are made FOR COST, not because they MUST be made. If cost is no issue, then there is no reason to accept any tradeoff. The Otus line, for example, comes very close to delivering optimal performance from corner to edge, with only a slight loss in PSF quality in the corners.

The cost factor is assumed because it is the only constraint that differentiates lenses into broad performance classes.

That is not what you wrote. You clearly, and with added emphasis via bolding, stated there is ALWAYS a tradoff that must be made. That is simply not true.

Is manufacturing expense not a tradeoff now?
 
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Re: Canon Develops New Camera-Lens Optical Element

I reckon that Canon should send some of their lens people into the sensor area and see what they could do there.
Canon really is pulling out all the stops with their new lenses, pity the same can't be said about their sensor division.

However, a great lens on a reasonable sensor will always beat a great sensor with a mediocre lens, IMHO.
 
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Re: Canon Develops New Camera-Lens Optical Element

stefsan said:
Sounds like a great thing for image quality. But CA is already handled very well in a lot of lenses and can be completely eliminated in post processing. One area where innovation would be most welcome is coma aberrations in (ultra)wide angle lenses – wouldn't it be cool to take a shot of the night sky and getting the stars as spheres and not as triangles? But that is probably much harder to achieve, especially for zoom lenses like the 16-35…

I don't understand how someone could make this claim. What you can eliminate in post processing is the obvious color fringes from CA. The overall color blur you'll have from CA, also in places where there is no obvoius color fringe, will not be eliminated, and overall picture quality and perceived sharpness will suffer.
 
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Re: Canon Develops New Camera-Lens Optical Element

Machaon said:
I'd especially like to see this in an EF 85mm f/1.2L III USM before too long.

^^^^^ This.

I really loved my 85 1.2 II but the CA was horrible. If they combine this tech and ditch the electronic MF for a conventional helical focus and make it all internal focusing (ie. fully weather sealable with a front filter by not having the front portion of the lens extend) I will preorder a 85 1.2L III today.....
 
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Longitudinal CA's (LOCA) cannot be removed automatically, or at least only with great difficulty. So, the workaround is to turn a range of purple hues to gray, and make the LOCA less visible. Unfortunately, if there are other elements matching the color of the LOCA in the image, they will turn gray as well.

Here is a example of turning LOCA's from my 85mm f/1.8 to gray. Its a huge improvement, but not being there in the first place would be so much better.

Full Image - Note the badge on the cap
IMG_4324-L.jpg


Crop of the badge:
IMG_4324-2-L.jpg


Lightroom LOCA removal Tool - It works best on the badge because the background matches the gray, but you can still see it easliy:
IMG_4324-L.jpg
 
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Mt Spokane Photography said:
So, the workaround is to turn a range of purple hues to gray, and make the LOCA less visible. Unfortunately, if there are other elements matching the color of the LOCA in the image, they will turn gray as well.




IMG_4324-L.jpg


Crop of the badge:
IMG_4324-2-L.jpg


Lightroom LOCA removal Tool - It works best on the badge because the background matches the gray, but you can still see it easliy:
IMG_4324-L.jpg
Surely you just mask off the area(s) to want to alter ? With the 85 mm f/1.8 I avoid wide open if there are intense highlights. Even f/2.2 virtually eliminates it. The 85/1.8 is actually a fine optical formula.
 
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Sporgon said:
Mt Spokane Photography said:
So, the workaround is to turn a range of purple hues to gray, and make the LOCA less visible. Unfortunately, if there are other elements matching the color of the LOCA in the image, they will turn gray as well.




IMG_4324-L.jpg


Crop of the badge:
IMG_4324-2-L.jpg


Lightroom LOCA removal Tool - It works best on the badge because the background matches the gray, but you can still see it easliy:
IMG_4324-L.jpg
Surely you just mask off the area(s) to want to alter ? With the 85 mm f/1.8 I avoid wide open if there are intense highlights. Even f/2.2 virtually eliminates it. The 85/1.8 is actually a fine optical formula.

The other thing is that LR/ACR give you the option of fine tuning the actual colour, and the range from it, that you desaturate in both purple and green. I am sure some people have had an issue, but it is so infrequent I have never seen an example of it impacting an actual real world image.
 
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privatebydesign said:
Surely you just mask off the area(s) to want to alter ? With the 85 mm f/1.8 I avoid wide open if there are intense highlights. Even f/2.2 virtually eliminates it. The 85/1.8 is actually a fine optical formula.

The other thing is that LR/ACR give you the option of fine tuning the actual colour, and the range from it, that you desaturate in both purple and green. I am sure some people have had an issue, but it is so infrequent I have never seen an example of it impacting an actual real world image.
[/quote]

I could not begin to imagine masking off 10,000 areas where light comes thru tree branches and has LOCA's.

Yes, I fine tuned the colors manually in order to get them all out of that badge. No one would have complained about the purple fringing in the prints, but I did not like it and reduced it. I did not try to remove the gray fringe over the black background, I had 3000 images to sort thru and process.
 
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Mt Spokane Photography said:
Sporgon said:
privatebydesign said:
Surely you just mask off the area(s) to want to alter ? With the 85 mm f/1.8 I avoid wide open if there are intense highlights. Even f/2.2 virtually eliminates it. The 85/1.8 is actually a fine optical formula.

The other thing is that LR/ACR give you the option of fine tuning the actual colour, and the range from it, that you desaturate in both purple and green. I am sure some people have had an issue, but it is so infrequent I have never seen an example of it impacting an actual real world image.

I could not begin to imagine masking off 10,000 areas where light comes thru tree branches and has LOCA's.

Yes, I fine tuned the colors manually in order to get them all out of that badge. No one would have complained about the purple fringing in the prints, but I did not like it and reduced it. I did not try to remove the gray fringe over the black background, I had 3000 images to sort thru and process.

I didn't mention the masking option, but if I had to I'd take the easier route and mask the areas of the image you didn't want desaturated, it would probably be very easy an quick.
 
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