Congratulations Canon to another great Camera release!!

[iMagic]

I don't know why this thread has evolved into a pissing match. It is obvious that Canon will not implement features into entry level cameras that could potentially affect sales of higher end cameras. From a profit maximization perspective I understand this and normally I don't have a problem with it. However, the SL1 body size is different enough that if more pro features were implemented then advanced users would be tempted to add it to their collection and increase Canon sales. I think Canon is missing out on these additional sales with respect to the SL1 form factor. I doubt advanced users would forgo a better body build, higher end camera and stick with just the SL1. I know I would want one to supplement my other bodies, not replace them.

 

[kphoto99]

How many of the people who say that Canon should not include AFMA in the Rebel line would change the their mind if Canon decided that they need to "pull the money" and only include it in the 1D line?

After all, Canon wants you to buy the top of the line camera and not including AFMA in 5D or 7D would increase the sales of 1Ds.

AF should produce a perfect focus at any aperture, if it does not then what is the point of it?

 

[mrsfotografie]

AF should produce a perfect focus at any aperture, if it does not then what is the point of it?

Speed.

 

[sanj]

As for AFMA, I use a 5D2, I have large aperture lenses, and I have never had a need for AFMA. Plus, no one is using large aperture lenses on these cameras and it would just be another confusing menu item. ... trust me, there are way too many menu options already - the average person does not want and will never use all those settings.

+1

If anyone if worries about AFMA, then they aren't the target audience for this camera... The people who are the target audience are those who say, of look cool, it has video!

 

[Zlatko]

It's fascinating how the only people defending Canon's latest releases all own either a 5D3 or a 1DX, and as such, are probably not going to buy a Rebel. If yes, only as back-back-back-back-up body.

It is interesting, but easily explained.

If anyone wants to announce that a new $649 13-ounce camera doesn't meet their personal photographic needs, this forum and a few other forums is where they will come to say it. If anyone is inclined to tell the world how they've divined a manufacturer's devious thoughts and strategies, this forum and a few other forums is where they will come to say it.

Photo gear forums tend to be gathering places for people who are very gear-oriented and also very discontented. Recently, I felt very sorry for a guy who had just bought a new Fuji camera and gone to a Fuji camera forum to post how happy he was with it. He was verbally blasted by a number of people who use that forum for their criticisms of Fuji. He quickly realized that he should have kept his mouth shut.

Many, many people who are buying, and successfully using, low-end cameras for kids' sports, holidays, birthdays, etc. are not coming to a photo gear rumors forum, or to any photo gear forum, to explain their choices or to express what they're looking for in a $649 13-ounce camera. That's not saying anything bad about them or their photographic skills. It's just a fact that they are not buying that camera with a desire to do AFMA adjustments. Of course there are some people who do want that ... and this forum is where they will come to say that. I would be happy to see AFMA in the little SL1, but I'm not the target market for that camera.

If I buy a cheap little car that gets great gas mileage and meets my needs very well, I will not hang out on a forum to discuss the design of the engine or the gearing of the transmission. But if I intend to use that same car at the race track, I may find a forum to express how it lacks certain features that would really help me for racing. And on that forum, I may well find a few other people expressing the same desire.

 

[Marsu42]

and even when i sound like a broken record... AFMA is just to correct flaws in canons manufacturing process. it´s not as if the customer gets something he would not expect from the start -> correct focusing with fast glass.

I've also got a broken record ... Canon lenses work with Canon bodies most of the time just fine, imho the main reason for Canon removing / not implementing afma is to screw 3rd party manufacturers who have a harder time to do perfect lens-body adjustments for all the brands they support - that's why Tamron does free lens adjustments & Sigma rolls out the lens usb interface!

 

[fonts]

and as expected this thread devolved into a pissing match...for the record i know I'm not helping with this post.

Oh yes it did.

It's funny cause I have the T3i, wanted something better, got the 6D. You remember how much people complained when the specs came out? I know I did, but once it was in my hands, I was set.

I think you guys forget that the rebels are the highest sellings cameras, and they are without AFMA. Not everyone will use it, shoot I have it and still haven't used it. It's not a FLAW, have you worked in manufacturing before? Lets take it to the next level, have you work in a MASS MANUFACTURING company. I would LOVE to see canon "perfect" the tolerance between body and lens, then see you all cry because of the prices of the items reaching ten-fold.

Being quite isn't the way to resolve what you want, but being loud isn't either, pick your fights. I too wish Canon was more innovative, but honestly, when it comes to it, they did make the best AF, best High ISO cameras out there.

 

[fonts]

It's fascinating how the only people defending Canon's latest releases all own either a 5D3 or a 1DX, and as such, are probably not going to buy a Rebel. If yes, only as back-back-back-back-up body.

It is interesting, but easily explained.

If anyone wants to announce that a new $649 13-ounce camera doesn't meet their personal photographic needs, this forum and a few other forums is where they will come to say it. If anyone is inclined to tell the world how they've divined a manufacturer's devious thoughts and strategies, this forum and a few other forums is where they will come to say it.

Photo gear forums tend to be gathering places for people who are very gear-oriented and also very discontented. Recently, I felt very sorry for a guy who had just bought a new Fuji camera and gone to a Fuji camera forum to post how happy he was with it. He was verbally blasted by a number of people who use that forum for their criticisms of Fuji. He quickly realized that he should have kept his mouth shut.

Many, many people who are buying, and successfully using, low-end cameras for kids' sports, holidays, birthdays, etc. are not coming to a photo gear rumors forum, or to any photo gear forum, to explain their choices or to express what they're looking for in a $649 13-ounce camera. That's not saying anything bad about them or their photographic skills. It's just a fact that they are not buying that camera with a desire to do AFMA adjustments. Of course there are some people who do want that ... and this forum is where they will come to say that. I would be happy to see AFMA in the little SL1, but I'm not the target market for that camera.

If I buy a cheap little car that gets great gas mileage and meets my needs very well, I will not hang out on a forum to discuss the design of the engine or the gearing of the transmission. But if I intend to use that same car at the race track, I may find a forum to express how it lacks certain features that would really help me for racing. And on that forum, I may well find a few other people expressing the same desire.

+1000 I think that's already 2000 points for you sir ;D

 

[LetTheRightLensIn]

Your phrasing about "a camera that won't act broken" just reflects your personal need for AFMA, even in a $649 camera. Cameras without AFMA don't "act broken" and it is odd to say so. These cameras do work to their specs, just not to your specs.

So if some back focus by 8' that is in spec for a Rebel?? How generous of you.

 

[LetTheRightLensIn]

Why on earth would the vast majority of Rebel owners want AFMA ?

Are they going to be shooting with 200 Ls at f2 ?


AFMA is extremely tricky to use properly and easy to b*****k up your AF.
:

It's not that tricky to use. Just aiming at a crack in the sidewalk 10' in front of you and adjusting can radically improve things. Or just aim at a player standing out on the field and adjust until the DOF centers around the grass at their feet in the way you wish.

AND if you mess it up, how hard is it to hit reset and put it all back to zero? Is that any harder than doing anything else you can do with the camera?

Is it that rare for a rebel user to try to shoot some sports or wildlife or portraits ir whatever with an 85 1.8, 70-200 2.8, 300 f/4, 50 1.4 (granted this lens is so dodgy it's pretty hard to figure out what MFA to use but that is a problem specific to that lens), 50 1.8, 100 2.8?

AND who says you HAVE to use it? If you find it confusing, don't want it, etc. DON'T USE IT! Just because some people won't be able to understand something means everyone else has to be punished. If you find it confusing then avoid it! That takes zero effort.

I haven't even used a Rebel for like ten years but I'd still like to see them put MFA in them. It's not a feature but something to even out QC. Some Rebels may be spot on, some may be at -10. Some lenses people have may be spot on some may be -15. Why should they have to suffer from that. And having no mention that calibration can be off in the manual probably confuses many a newbie shooter. Maybe they get frustrated and quit using DSLRs even. I get that they are a business and want to push people up. And maybe if it only affected f/1.2 shooting by a couple inches you could call it a pro feature and certainly 5D3 focuses a lot more precisely than a 50D even if both are calibrated, but not having MFA can even mean that f/4 shooting can sometimes be way off which seems beyond simply calling it a pro-precision to feature to me.

And removing it from the 60D after the 50D had it (and not having put it in the 40D) was pretty cheap. And you say ok send it in to canon. Yeah and then maybe miss two crucial weeks of a season or maybe they mess up say the 1D3 AF and are so busy fixing that they can't be bothered to handle calibrations for more than a month and then you are stuck.

Anyway whatever, I've said too much already.

 

[LetTheRightLensIn]

and even when i sound like a broken record... AFMA is just to correct flaws in canons manufacturing process. it´s not as if the customer gets something he would not expect from the start -> correct focusing with fast glass.

I've also got a broken record ... Canon lenses work with Canon bodies most of the time just fine, imho the main reason for Canon removing / not implementing afma is to screw 3rd party manufacturers who have a harder time to do perfect lens-body adjustments for all the brands they support - that's why Tamron does free lens adjustments & Sigma rolls out the lens usb interface!

Ironically once Sigma has the USB calibration in all of their lenses they will do MFA with Rebels when Canon's own body+lens combo won't and they will push sales to sigma lenses even more perhaps.

 

[K-amps]

Some are arguing why Canon is not putting AFMA in Rebels... but if they wanted, they could also argue how much of a good thing it would be for both Canon and it's loyal user base who will invariably spend a lot more in lenses.

 

[Zlatko]

Your phrasing about "a camera that won't act broken" just reflects your personal need for AFMA, even in a $649 camera. Cameras without AFMA don't "act broken" and it is odd to say so. These cameras do work to their specs, just not to your specs.

So if some back focus by 8' that is in spec for a Rebel?? How generous of you.

I didn't say that, did I?

I think that if you did a survey of Rebel users and asked them "Does your camera back focus?" or "Is your camera's autofocus broken?", very few would respond with a "yes". This notion that every non-AFMA camera is "broken" is an internet myth. If a camera actually backfocuses by 8 FEET, as in your example, then it is defective and covered by warranty, and AFMA wouldn't fix it anyway.

For most people, small cameras are like refrigerators, power tools, lawn mowers and phones. They are going to buy them and use them, but they are not going to spend any part of their life on internet forums debating them. Zero. I own a refrigerator, but have never visited a forum to discuss it and likely never will. The people who debate on internet forums make up a very small part of the customer base for such things, and skew the discussion toward complaints about design, discontent with the profit motive, conspiracy theories about marketing, etc.

 

[awinphoto]

Your phrasing about "a camera that won't act broken" just reflects your personal need for AFMA, even in a $649 camera. Cameras without AFMA don't "act broken" and it is odd to say so. These cameras do work to their specs, just not to your specs.

So if some back focus by 8' that is in spec for a Rebel?? How generous of you.

I didn't say that, did I?

I think that if you did a survey of Rebel users and asked them "Does your camera back focus?" or "Is your camera's autofocus broken?", very few would respond with a "yes". This notion that every non-AFMA camera is "broken" is an internet myth. If a camera actually backfocuses by 8 FEET, as in your example, then it is defective and covered by warranty, and AFMA wouldn't fix it anyway.

For most people, small cameras are like refrigerators, power tools, lawn mowers and phones. They are going to buy them and use them, but they are not going to spend any of their life on internet forums debating them. The people who debate on internet forums make up a very small part of the customer base for such things, and skew the discussion toward complaints about design, discontent with the profit motive, conspiracy theories about marketing, etc.

this is from the same guy who griped that the 5d3 didn't have the DR that the D800 has.... some people just like to nitpick and complain... This rebel, for what it is, will probably be enough for 98% of all it's intended customer base... The other 2% can either upgrade to the xxd or xd line or downgrade to the powershoots cause it is too much camera. See ya guys, got photos to take

 

[iMagic]

Why is everyone talking about "Rebels"? This is the SL1. A new form factor that could appeal to more than just the entry level consumer.

 

[rizenphoenix]

I think I've figured out the real reason that Canon decided to release the SL1 and T5i instead of the 70D.

They wanted to see the inevitable implosion on this forum.

8)

 

[Don Haines]

Bit of a reality check here:

Concerning tolerances...I believe that all Canon cameras (and probably most other manufacturers) are tested with a reference lens and an internal AFMA number is stored in the body before it leaves the factory. This is how they deal with manufacturing tolerances. The process is not perfect... sometimes a lens might not be properly seated, or a mistake is made, and the wrong value gets calculated and stored..... but most of the time it gets the camera close. Same thing with lenses.

The average user will never notice that the image is not perfect.... it is "good enough". Many will remark on how it is way better than that p/s or cell phone camera they had.... They are buying a camera to take pictures and most of the time leaving it in auto will do just fine.

The SL1 and T5i are for those who will leave it in auto most of the time. They will take great pictures. They will be proud of them. They will be happy. There are also a whole heck of a lot of them so these two cameras will sell lots.

 

[Zlatko]

Why is everyone talking about "Rebels"? This is the SL1. A new form factor that could appeal to more than just the entry level consumer.

The SL1 is called the "Rebel SL1". Check the Canon web site.

 

[iMagic]

Why is everyone talking about "Rebels"? This is the SL1. A new form factor that could appeal to more than just the entry level consumer.

The SL1 is called the "Rebel SL1". Check the Canon web site.

i realize that. Thats why i put rebel in quotes. Perhaps i was being too subtle. I meant it isnt a traditional rebel. So i dont think the usual canon marketing rules should apply. I guess i am the only one thinking along those lines.

 

[scrup]

My 2 cents.

AFMA to me is a diagnostic tool. It is there to get the most of your tool.
Same as a computer that gives you access to the bios to tweak settings.

Some people will use it and some people would care less. But its good to have the option to be able to get the most from your tool.

Canon should see it this way and not as a feature to get people to upgrade to better bodies. It doesn't cost them much and it might even get people talking about tweaking lens versus b****ing about this new camera.

Anyhow how come ML haven't come up with a solution for AFMA?