Congratulations Canon to another great Camera release!!

[LetTheRightLensIn]

Your phrasing about "a camera that won't act broken" just reflects your personal need for AFMA, even in a $649 camera. Cameras without AFMA don't "act broken" and it is odd to say so. These cameras do work to their specs, just not to your specs.

So if some back focus by 8' that is in spec for a Rebel?? How generous of you.

I didn't say that, did I?

I think that if you did a survey of Rebel users and asked them "Does your camera back focus?" or "Is your camera's autofocus broken?", very few would respond with a "yes". This notion that every non-AFMA camera is "broken" is an internet myth. If a camera actually backfocuses by 8 FEET, as in your example, then it is defective and covered by warranty, and AFMA wouldn't fix it anyway.

For most people, small cameras are like refrigerators, power tools, lawn mowers and phones. They are going to buy them and use them, but they are not going to spend any of their life on internet forums debating them. The people who debate on internet forums make up a very small part of the customer base for such things, and skew the discussion toward complaints about design, discontent with the profit motive, conspiracy theories about marketing, etc.

this is from the same guy who griped that the 5d3 didn't have the DR that the D800 has.... some people just like to nitpick and complain... This rebel, for what it is, will probably be enough for 98% of all it's intended customer base... The other 2% can either upgrade to the xxd or xd line or downgrade to the powershoots cause it is too much camera. See ya guys, got photos to take

Yeah well it doesn't have even close to the same DR the D800 does.

Believe it or not you ain't the only one with photos to take. How do you think people ended up hitting into problems with AF calibration or not having enough DR at times?

I'm not saying they need to put anythng special into the Rebel just give it MFA so it can be easily made to function to spec (and now that does not mean it will focus nearly as precisely as say a 1DX evne if both are calibrated, but at least it will do what a Rebel should be able to do).

 

[Loswr]

I meant it isnt a traditional rebel

You are clearly confused. Put on your plastic glasses and step out of your virtual reality. Canon's marketing strategy is an open secret - and that's not just an unbiased opinion, it's based on an original copy of an internal memo. I'd go into more detail, but I have to go finish the larger half of my dinner, I'm having jumbo shrimp.

Sorry for the digression - I found your oxymoron seriously funny.

 

[Hobby Shooter]

Your phrasing about "a camera that won't act broken" just reflects your personal need for AFMA, even in a $649 camera. Cameras without AFMA don't "act broken" and it is odd to say so. These cameras do work to their specs, just not to your specs.

So if some back focus by 8' that is in spec for a Rebel?? How generous of you.

honestly the guy is a jerk....

For giving his view?

I think you have made your view clear in numerous posts and should accept that others also wants to chip in.

 

[fonts]

I meant it isnt a traditional rebel

You are clearly confused. Put on your plastic glasses and step out of your virtual reality. Canon's marketing strategy is an open secret - and that's not just an unbiased opinion, it's based on an original copy of an internal memo. I'd go into more detail, but I have to go finish the larger half of my dinner, I'm having jumbo shrimp.

Sorry for the digression - I found your oxymoron seriously funny.

Lmfao such a trololol, love it!

 

[elflord]

You seem to have never encountered a person who wished for a simpler, smaller camera.

I've encountered both -- those who wish for small simple cameras and those who wish for small but powerful cameras. The former use iphones or point and shoots, the latter usually use SLRs or mirrorless.

Many people who buy low end DSLRS cameras love pictures but are not into nit-picking over technical adjustments, doing AFMA or reading about it on gear forums. They buy zooms, not primes, because zooms are more useful to them.

Yes, but many people who buy low end DSLRs are buying them because they can't afford the high end cameras (e.g. art or photography students).

And your claim about treating buyers of low end products "with contempt" is imaginative, but not based on any fact. It presumes a fantastic mind-reading ability. You imagine this contempt for the buyer because your premise is that cheaper products should have the same advanced features as more expensive products, which is not a valid premise in the business world. That's a prescription for business failure.

But what makes a product "cheap" or "expensive" ?

Feature bullet points, especially firmware related ones aren't it -- even point and shoots have impressive feature sets these days (face recognition, built in panorama support, as well as more "serious" features like raw support, color temperature control, spot metering, manual focus and/or selectable AF regions, hotshoe mounted flash etc)

In a competitive market, what makes a product expensive are features that add substantially to marginal or fixed costs of production, and/or absence of economy of scale to absorb fixed costs. In the case of cameras, the former largely consists of the sensor (e.g. larger sensors are MUCH more expensive), and most probably a more rigorous testing process.

There's no reason features that don't add substantially to marginal cost of production shouldn't be included in cheaper products. Failing to put this there is just a way of crippling the cheaper products. In Canon's case, it seems to be a calculated move to prevent their low end products from cannibalizing sales from their flagships. Whether or not this will be a good business strategy for them is an empirical question -- but I would find it hard to recommend the rebel line to a serious user on a tight budget.

 

[AshleyAshes]

Anyone else interested in trying to figure out if the T5i really has MJPEG support or if DPReview made an error, or do ya'll just wanna fight and argue over a camera that, if it doesn't suit your needs, you're welcome to not purchase it.

Cause I gotta say, while I wouldn't replace y T2i and T4i for a T5i due to it only being an incremental update, a T5i with 4:2:2 MJPEG would be pretty nice for starting DSLR film makers looking for something 'not too expensive' but with decent features. Right now I'm rendering green screen footage I filmed in a Crown Victoria Police Interceptor on a T2i and I can tell you, it'd be nice if it had been shot on MJPEG instead of h.264.

 

[awinphoto]

Your phrasing about "a camera that won't act broken" just reflects your personal need for AFMA, even in a $649 camera. Cameras without AFMA don't "act broken" and it is odd to say so. These cameras do work to their specs, just not to your specs.

So if some back focus by 8' that is in spec for a Rebel?? How generous of you.

I didn't say that, did I?

I think that if you did a survey of Rebel users and asked them "Does your camera back focus?" or "Is your camera's autofocus broken?", very few would respond with a "yes". This notion that every non-AFMA camera is "broken" is an internet myth. If a camera actually backfocuses by 8 FEET, as in your example, then it is defective and covered by warranty, and AFMA wouldn't fix it anyway.

For most people, small cameras are like refrigerators, power tools, lawn mowers and phones. They are going to buy them and use them, but they are not going to spend any of their life on internet forums debating them. The people who debate on internet forums make up a very small part of the customer base for such things, and skew the discussion toward complaints about design, discontent with the profit motive, conspiracy theories about marketing, etc.

this is from the same guy who griped that the 5d3 didn't have the DR that the D800 has.... some people just like to nitpick and complain... This rebel, for what it is, will probably be enough for 98% of all it's intended customer base... The other 2% can either upgrade to the xxd or xd line or downgrade to the powershoots cause it is too much camera. See ya guys, got photos to take

Yeah well it doesn't have even close to the same DR the D800 does.

Believe it or not you ain't the only one with photos to take. How do you think people ended up hitting into problems with AF calibration or not having enough DR at times?

I'm not saying they need to put anythng special into the Rebel just give it MFA so it can be easily made to function to spec (and now that does not mean it will focus nearly as precisely as say a 1DX evne if both are calibrated, but at least it will do what a Rebel should be able to do).

Yep, when clients are reacting when they see the photos from my 5d3, we ALL know they say "damn that's too bad you didn't have more DR or a 36 mega pixel camera". But, what one of my top models DID tell me that she hated my camera because it has too much detail and shows all her imperfections. Rebel is a rebel, no more no less. Whatever did we do when we had the 10d, 20d, 30d, 40d, 5d classic... The 60d has no reason it shouldn't have afma, but if the 70d doesn't have it, then panic

 

[cccp80]

Should we expect new full frame bodies any time soon?

 

[LetTheRightLensIn]

Anyone else interested in trying to figure out if the T5i really has MJPEG support or if DPReview made an error, or do ya'll just wanna fight and argue over a camera that, if it doesn't suit your needs, you're welcome to not purchase it.

Cause I gotta say, while I wouldn't replace y T2i and T4i for a T5i due to it only being an incremental update, a T5i with 4:2:2 MJPEG would be pretty nice for starting DSLR film makers looking for something 'not too expensive' but with decent features. Right now I'm rendering green screen footage I filmed in a Crown Victoria Police Interceptor on a T2i and I can tell you, it'd be nice if it had been shot on MJPEG instead of h.264.

Why do you think it would be 4:2:2 even if it used MJPEG?
It seems hard to believe they suddenly bare to give away 4:2:2 in a rebel first.

 

[LetTheRightLensIn]

Yep, when clients are reacting when they see the photos from my 5d3, we ALL know they say "damn that's too bad you didn't have more DR or a 36 mega pixel camera". But, what one of my top models DID tell me that she hated my camera because it has too much detail and shows all her imperfections. Rebel is a rebel, no more no less. Whatever did we do when we had the 10d, 20d, 30d, 40d, 5d classic... The 60d has no reason it shouldn't have afma, but if the 70d doesn't have it, then panic

Yeah well maybe get out of the studio for once and shoot some giant landscapes that can't be lit with flashes or umbrellas....

 

[LetTheRightLensIn]

Should we expect new full frame bodies any time soon?

We just got the 5D3 and 1DX and 6D so I highly doubt before late 2013 or early 2014 at best. Next one might be some sort of higher MP body hopefully finally with a new process sensor that has better DR.

 

[bycostello]

if they don't suit buy something else...

 

[CanNotYet]

I think AFMA should be standard in ANY camera, but I do understand why it is not. I also seriously doubt it costs zero to add. As a professional software tester I believe that adding this feature to ANY camera model would include testing of that feature. (at least some regression testing)

Although lots of testing can be automated, and one can limit oneself to spot testing (not testing every camera body), it will still cost human effort, and as a consequence, money.

So, unless you actually work at Canon, and was present at the meeting where the QA responsible took the decision to take the risk of never testing AFMA in a new camera body (and can prove that to us), I would not claim that I know how much it costs to add.

It could still be cheap, when you spread it out on the volumes for these cameras, but we do not know that, and in this end of the camera spectrum, cutting manufacturing costs is good practise.

 

[altenae]

no other manufacturer is bold enough to bring such a stunt!!! hats off!!

the comments all over the internet speak volumes.

this canon camera, again, shows us who brings innovations to the biz... SONY and NIKON. 8)


Canon 550d - 18mp - DXO Mark sensor score: 66
Canon 600d - 18mp - DXO Mark sensor score: 65
Canon 650d - 18mp - DXO Mark sensor score: 62
Canon 700d - 18mp - DXO Mark sensor score: 5?

A freelancer without work I guess.
Seems many photographers have plenty of time for this kind of topics.

 

[Marsu42]

So, unless you actually work at Canon, and was present at the meeting where the QA responsible took the decision to take the risk of never testing AFMA in a new camera body (and can prove that to us), I would not claim that I know how much it costs to add.

Ok, then let's say it's "next to zero cost" - I know features need testing and servicing, and that's why the Canon fw never will have the features of Magic Lantern. But afma is practically self-servicing: The user has to figure out the values, it's simpy added or subtracted from/to the transmitted af value, and you can reset it at any time.

Imho there is really no excuse for removing it, deeply hidden inside Fn it doesn't confuse anyone, it's only due to marketing as the removal 50d->60d proves.

 

[Deleted member 7828]

About this AFMA talk - I had the 60D (just sold it) and got along perfectly fine without the AFMA feature - at least, until I got the 40mm 2.8 (has a weird backfocus at longer distances)...and a 24-85mm lens that front-focuses. Would have been nice to be able to try to correct it in-house before needing to send it back. At least my current 5D has it, and although I haven't needed to use it yet, good to know it's there just in case.

I don't think it's really necessary on Rebels since the focusing on them tends to be inconsistent anyway (at least that was the case with my old T2i). AFMA wouldn't fix that. But definitely, leaving it out of the 60D was a ? move. In the vast majority of cases, I didn't really need it anyway.

Most people who get Rebels leave the stock lens on - or at best, get a 50mm 1.8...I'm sure if the focus is found to be off, it's simply exchanged for a new one.
_________________

About this SL1 - I think it's a great idea, actually and I think it will sell well. Everyone's looking for smaller cameras that can still take a decent-quality shot. I'd love to try one out myself when I get the chance. Curious especially to see how the handling is compared to the M. The only thing that might stop me from actually picking one up might be the focusing system - it's identical to the T2i focusing system which gave me fits with fast-aperture lenses...extremely inconsistent focusing especially near MFD, etc (and again, AFMA would have been useless here)...the M, although slower, is more accurate. I'd mainly be looking to pair a prospective SL1 with the 40mm 2.8 and perhaps a 35mm f2 IS (as a backup to the 5D/travel alternative) so it would need to be able to focus properly with those lenses.

 

[cccp80]

I don't think it's really necessary on Rebels since the focusing on them tends to be inconsistent anyway (at least that was the case with my old T2i). AFMA wouldn't fix that.

Not quite. Yes, the phase detection AF on most Canons is inconsistent but you can increase your good image outcome by a lot by doing AFMA. Just to give you an example. Let's say that without any adjustment your average focus is located at +6 with the shot-to-shot error of +/-3 units (that means that the lower and upper bounds are +3 and +9). If you keep it at that you will never get a sharp image. Now, if you do microadjustment of -6 units, you are zeroing your average focus position and your range becomes from -3 to +3 - much better. You will get much better images in this case.

 

[elflord]

Should we expect new full frame bodies any time soon?

I heard the 5D Mark IV is just around the corner. The question is, whether to buy that or wait for the Mark V which will be even better.

 

[elflord]

I don't think it's really necessary on Rebels since the focusing on them tends to be inconsistent anyway (at least that was the case with my old T2i). AFMA wouldn't fix that.

Not quite. Yes, the phase detection AF on most Canons is inconsistent but you can increase your good image outcome by a lot by doing AFMA. Just to give you an example. Let's say that without any adjustment your average focus is located at +6 with the shot-to-shot error of +/-3 units (that means that the lower and upper bounds are +3 and +9). If you keep it at that you will never get a sharp image. Now, if you do microadjustment of -6 units, you are zeroing your average focus position and your range becomes from -3 to +3 - much better. You will get much better images in this case.

Yep. Even if you are within the error range, you will get improvements. Suppose the keep rate when properly calibrated is 95% (+-2 standard deviations). Let's say the standard deviation is 3 AFMA units. Even if you're off by half a standard deviation (1.5 units so 95% of your shots fall between -4.5 and +7.5) your miss rate increases by about 50%, and goes up to 16% (3 times as much) if you are off by 3 AFMA units.

If you are towards the edge of the 95% band, it becomes a crapshoot (at that point it's about 50/50 -- you basically need to hope that the random component of your AF errors are in the right direction to make up for the miscalibration)

 

[cccp80]

Hey, elford,
I see you got the 5D mark III.
Is the AF on this model really that much better than on previous models? What is the st. dev for it in Canon's units (if you know of course)?