could the new EF-M mount support FF sensors too?

[Mt Spokane Photography]

Re: No Full Frame EOS-M EVER?

Read some of the other EOS M threads. its been discussed already, and DPR is not wrong.

 

[mitchell3417]

Re: M Lens Mount Full Frame?

a whopping one reply. no one disagrees then. good.

 

[EchoLocation]

Re: No Full Frame EOS-M EVER?

Read some of the other EOS M threads. its been discussed already, and DPR is not wrong.

i've read all the other threads.... but no one seemed to care very much...
I was considering pre ordering this one and upgrading later to the FF model. But this totally killed it for me. I love Canon and want to be their customer, but they are either pricing me out of the market(5DIII, 24-70 II) or just disappointing me lately. I don't understand how you can create a whole new system and lens mount with no room for upgrading the sensor at all. APS-C is great, but it isn't the pinnacle of photography.
I am really disheartened as it seems that Canon expects anyone who wants top quality images to be willing to spend 5k on gear.
I don't think is a reasonable price in this day and age. If I was a professional photgrapher i'm sure i'd feel different.
I will wait and hopefully the NEX system will drop a FF soon.

 

[Hillsilly]

I'll preface this by saying I have no idea what I'm talking about, but....

The image size only has to be FF in size at the sensor. The image could come out in a pyramidal shape from the lens (ie very narrow at the base of the lens and then expand to cover the FF sensor). Most lenses work this way. It's pretty easy from a design perspective and I'd like to think EF-M lenses work this way, too.

Existing EF lenses might have their images come out in a different way (they might be "fatter" at the point of the mount - leading to loss of image / vignetting at the edges. They might not be 100% compatible with a FF EF-M mount. But they would still work in crop mode.

I learnt all of this in wishful thinking 101.

 

[Loswr]

Re: No Full Frame EOS-M EVER?

I will wait and hopefully the NEX system will drop a FF soon.

Don't hold your breath. E-mount lenses for the NEX series are all APS-C image circle lenses. Alpha lenses have too big a flange focal distance to be attractive on mirrorless. Sony is coming out with several more APS-C sized E-mount lenses, but for a FF NEX they'd have to create yet another whole series of lenses. Unlikely.

 

[Ricku]

Re: No Full Frame EOS-M EVER?

I'm with you.

This is downright depressing. I already knew that Canons first mirrorless would be non FF (in the growing sea of non FF mirrorless), but I still had high hopes for a future model with FF - something to rival the Leica M9 and the upcoming M10.

But no, instead Canon goes all out to please the soccer moms and casual hikers.

Yet another boring step by Canon.

 

[preppyak]

Existing EF lenses might have their images come out in a different way (they might be "fatter" at the point of the mount - leading to loss of image / vignetting at the edges. They might not be 100% compatible with a FF EF-M mount. But they would still work in crop mode.

Except you've now destroyed the point of a full-frame mirrorless camera. Who is spending $1500-2000 (or more) on a camera that can't even work with their existing EF lenses with an adapter? Where they can still only get APS-C quality out of their L lenses.

It would require Canon to create at least a dozen L quality EF-M lenses, comparable to the EF versions, releasing before or at the same time as the full frame mirrorless...and customers that wantt to spend the extra money for all new lenses as well. By that point, it might not even be genuinely cheaper than a Leica system, because it'd be such a niche product they'd have to charge a premium.

It's why I'm not sure I see a full-frame mirrorless anytime soon. The current systems don't quite match DSLR usability, and the only way Canon could really pull it off would be to make it EF mount, which means the size advantage would be fairly limited as well.

 

[preppyak]

Re: No Full Frame EOS-M EVER?

Sony is coming out with several more APS-C sized E-mount lenses, but for a FF NEX they'd have to create yet another whole series of lenses. Unlikely.

Yep, like I said in one of the other threads, to pull off a full-frame mirrorless, companies either would have to use their DSLR mounts (meaning the camera's aren't much smaller, negating size advantages), or they'd have to release an entire system of lenses that can match the current DSLR offerings. And since it's taken decades for Canon and Nikon to do that DSLR wise, I can't see anyone nailing that side of things in the immediate future.

I do think Sony would be the first to make a full-frame mirrorless, because they have a reason to innovate that Canon/Nikon don't, but they'd have some really tough choices to make to get there

 

[Ricku]

Re: No Full Frame EOS-M EVER?

^ I guess you are right. Now that both Nikon and Canon screwed up their mirrorless debutes, I too think that Sony will be the first to go head to head with Leica. If they can pull it off..

Anyway, whoever makes the next sub-$4000 FF-mirrorless camera, gets my money.

 

[EchoLocation]

Re: No Full Frame EOS-M EVER?

depressing is right....
If Sony needs a whole new lens system for a FF NEX, why are there so many rumors about Pro Nex 9 or Nex11? I guess there's just a lot of uninformed people out there.
Perhaps Fuji is the best bet. Any chance of a FF Xpro? or would that need a new mount too?
I just don't understand the point of creating a whole new mount/system which will be constrained by one sensor size for eternity.

 

[ronderick]

Re: M Lens Mount Full Frame?

Specs aside, my gut feeling is that the EVIL bodies will be the future home of APS-C sensors.

The next era's "split" will be APS-C EOS EVIL/FF EOS DSLR (especially considering that there's
the rumored entry level FF coming soon...)

 

[ronderick]

Re: No Full Frame EOS-M EVER?

My 2 cents:

Well, assuming that Canon does come out with a FF-sensor-embedded body the size of the M9 or Xpro1... I wonder how much that's going to cost? (Even the XPro1's body price is a bit on the high end, and that's only with the APS-C sensor).

Then there comes the economical sense of making FF lenses for these EVIL full-frames ... I don't think people can stand a camera with the body size of Xpro1 combined with a 24-105L. If Canon indeed have the skill of making a EF-M lens comparable to the quality of it's current L line, you'd see DSLR being deserted as people pick up the lighter body yielding the same FF quality as the 5D3 and 1DX in droves... and they can probably kiss goodbye to the L lenses and face the fury of those photographers who are heavily invested in the current lineup. That's not a venture to be taken likely.

My original guess about which company would have invested in a EVIL FF body was Fuji, but they settled with the APS-C sensor in their Xpro1. Even a company w/o existing lens burden decided on the APS-C, I doubt any of the other company would risk it.

Well, in conclusion, coming up with something that soccer moms can easily use make a lot more economic sense than starting a EVIL FF system from scratch and targeting the high end market which is already been partially claimed by Leica and (to some extent) Fuji.

 

[moreorless]

Re: No Full Frame EOS-M EVER?

This arguement actually seems backwards to me, the real disadvanatge of the Canon M mount being ASPC only is that should they introduce a FF mirrorless its lenses will not be backwards compatable. Any M mount lenses they release arent going to be compatable with FF anyway due to the smaller image circle.

Personally my feeling has always been that if Canon do produce a larger sensor mirrorless its actually more likely to be medium format than FF. That would impact on there existing FF SLR business far less, offer greater size saving than the MF SLR alternatives and service a market that doesnt need as diverse a range of lenses.

 

[Hillsilly]

The enigmatic individuals who'd prefer to spend their money on a FF mirrorless rather than a 5Diii would only want small, high quality primes specifically designed for the body. They're not concerned with DSLR usability. Their driving desire would be unparalleled image quality. They'd see some form of EF compatibility as a bonus, but not the be all and end all. They would accept that mirrorless models are a new camera system and wouldn't take full compatibility for granted.

In the past, there have been camera systems designed around only a few lenses that have sold in sufficient quantities to make it worthwhile. My Mamiya 6 is one. It only comes with a 50mm, 75mm and 150mm. (Essentially 30mm, 45mm and 90mm in FF equivalents). The Mamiya 7 only has six lenses. I'd see a Canon FF mirrorless as the modern day equivalent. It would only need a few top quality lenses to gain a lot of interest.

 

[moreorless]

The enigmatic individuals who'd prefer to spend their money on a FF mirrorless rather than a 5Diii would only want small, high quality primes specifically designed for the body. They're not concerned with DSLR usability. Their driving desire would be unparalleled image quality. They'd see some form of EF compatibility as a bonus, but not the be all and end all. They would accept that mirrorless models are a new camera system and wouldn't take full compatibility for granted.

In the past, there have been camera systems designed around only a few lenses that have sold in sufficient quantities to make it worthwhile. My Mamiya 6 is one. It only comes with a 50mm, 75mm and 150mm. (Essentially 30mm, 45mm and 90mm in FF equivalents). The Mamiya 7 only has six lenses. I'd see a Canon FF mirrorless as the modern day equivalent. It would only need a few top quality lenses to gain a lot of interest.

I'd potentially take the comparison further and say that if Canon were to look at a larger sensor mirrorless it might well be a medium format system aimed as you say at those who want the highest possible IQ in a compact hand holdable package(Samsung have already built such a system so its hardly pie in the sky). Like the Mamiya 6 and 7 as the format gets larger cutting out the mirror naturally saves more space and the userbase don't generally demand the same large range of lenses than FF DSLR users expect.

The lenses for such a system would really be too expensive for there to be much of a market for them on an ASPC sized system anyway so backwards compatability doesnt seem like a big issue to me. Being able to use EF lenses on a mirrorless is I'd say a bigger issue since its questionable how large the market for dedicated quality mirrorless lenses is, you look somewhere like amazon and sales of everything but 1-2 pancakes and budget telezooms are very very low indeed compaired to SLR lenses.

 

[marekjoz]

Re: No Full Frame EOS-M EVER?

And I believe we'll see mirrorless FF from Canon sooner or later with it's dedicated lens line. Why?

Because:
1. Hybrid AF (or whatever not requiring a mirror, maybe automatic rangefinder or back to eye controlled focus ) in some time will be quick and accurate
2. One day another competitive company will market such a solution
3. People usualy won't the gear smaller, lighter and more convenient in use

It may have EVF, good quality short focal lenses, alternative EF compatible mount and finally automatic crop mode. I think that no later than in 2015. We should observe upcoming lens patents for FF with short flange.

 

[Hillsilly]

I'd agree. It would have to be a very high MP sensor or medium format. For a serious photographer looking at investing a lot of money into a system, why else would you give up the speed and autofocus advantages of a DSLR? Outstanding image quality is the only answer I keep coming back to.

 

[Ricku]

I'd agree. It would have to be a very high MP sensor or medium format. For a serious photographer looking at investing a lot of money into a system, why else would you give up the speed and autofocus advantages of a DSLR? Outstanding image quality is the only answer I keep coming back to.

True.

Also, speed + AF is not important to everyone.

I'd be more than happy with only 2 FPS and turtle slow AF, as long as the camera can deliver in the IQ department. (Resolution, great dynamic range, e.t.c). And i'd prefer if it is a mirrorless body!

 

[Loswr]

Re: M Lens Mount Full Frame?

a whopping one reply. no one disagrees then. good.

Probably due to oversaturation. There are about 4 threads just like this one...

 

[preppyak]

The enigmatic individuals who'd prefer to spend their money on a FF mirrorless rather than a 5Diii would only want small, high quality primes specifically designed for the body. They're not concerned with DSLR usability. Their driving desire would be unparalleled image quality.

This is a fair point, but, it begs the question of how many people like this their truly are. Because to get that IQ, you'd be talking a new body design, a new sensor, all new lens designs, and those costs have to be spread out among all potential buyers. Would Canon see it as worth it, making a system that's gonna cost as much as their 1-series cameras and cost nearly as much as Leica? Or is that more the role of niche companies to fill, especially if compatibility with EF/Canon equipment isn't crucial. Then again, it's probably not even as small a market as the $20k cine camera market that Canon just entered with the C300 and that series, so who knows.

Being able to use EF lenses on a mirrorless is I'd say a bigger issue since its questionable how large the market for dedicated quality mirrorless lenses is, you look somewhere like amazon and sales of everything but 1-2 pancakes and budget telezooms are very very low indeed compaired to SLR lenses.

To this, I'd agree that that audience isn't as large as say, the wedding photographer audience, etc. But, there are a lot of adventure photographers (think extreme sports, Nat Geo, etc) who would eat up the size of a mirrorless camera if it could match the performance of even the current 5dIII. Much easier to carry an NEX-7 and a pancake in the pocket of your ski jacket, or back of your kayak, then it is to carry a DSLR.

Of course, the demands of those activities are exactly where mirrorless is falling short at the moment (AF performance, handling of difficult light, etc). But when they figure it out, thats a target audience that won't turn back to DSLR's, because size and weight are critical on multi-day, and the only reason they are using DSLR's now is because its what works.

Again, this is a niche market though, so I'm not sure I'll see Canon as the first company to fill that need. Especially when Sony seems to be about 5 years ahead of them in that market